France Alarmed at Obama's Iranian Capitulation

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do? [/quote]

Uranium is three times as dense as iron. 141 pounds of U235 would only be about the size of one 45-pound plate.
[/quote]

But will I glow in the dark if I power clean it ?
[/quote]

Nah, your blood would probably just boil and you would pop. Which is cooler than glowing in the dark.[/quote]

Sign me up.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So… I’ve read two or three times this may very well prompt a nuclear arms race…

Any truth to that?[/quote]

So… Yea or Nay?[/quote]

If Iran tests a nuclear weapon, horizontal nuclear proliferation in Southwest Asia is very possible. Saudi Arabia would likely be the first state to follow suit. This could be ameliorated if the US forward deploys nuclear forces in the region, thus extending its nuclear umbrella. A successful final agreement would do much to allay the security dilemma dynamics experienced by Iran’s peers in the region.[/quote]

So that is a yes then?[/quote]

If Iran actually tests an nuclear weapon, there’s already a nuclear arms race in the ME a big one.

A nuclear arms race does not have to take the form of country upon country racing to stockpile as many nuclear warheads as quickly as possible. This, I reckon, is what people think about as a nuclear arms race. And it is, most definitely. But it does not have to look like that to be a problem. It can be much more subtle than that.
Iran has centrifuges, Saudi Arabia ramps up production, Jordan, throws it’s hat into the ring and pretty soon you’ll have a nuclear arms race just in the form of power. Once you have that many nuclear players in the region, it’s not a flying leap toward the bomb. Once you establish a good nuclear program, you’re a a breath away from amassing enough U-235 or plutonium to make a bomb.

“Little Boy” the bomb we dropped on Hiroshima required only 141 lbs of U-235. How long would it take to amass that much U-235 in a place with a fully vetted nuclear power program? Not long.

That’s what makes the world’s asshole tighten up like a bear claw about an Iran with a nuclear program. I think that’s what most of us who don’t like the deal on the books worry about. It only takes one bomb to be a nightmare. It would not take long at all to enrich enough uranium to amass 141 lbs right under the noses of inspectors.

Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do?

Honestly, at this point it’s gone so far that I don’t think we can or will stop them from getting the bomb.

The best way to prevent them from going to far is to take out what they have. I don’t think anybody has the stomach or the balls to do that. Israel might. If they are willing, they have my blessing to proceed. It’s not like that would affect Iranian/ Israeli relations.[/quote]

What you are attempting to refer to is known as nuclear hedging, which doesn’t constitute a nuclear arms race.

I don’t know why I take the time and effort to write substantive posts if no one bothers to read them. Refer to my post at the top of the page.

As it stands, Iran’s breakout time - the time it would take to produce 27 kilograms of 90% enriched uranium - is between 2 and 3 months. A final agreement would increase breakout to 1 year, giving the international community 400-600% more time to respond to an Iranian breakout attempt.The timeline is much longer if Iran attempts to reach that threshold clandestinely by a so-called sneak out.

If attacked now, Iran would merely reconstitute its nuclear program, with the benefit of an unshackled economy. International sanction regimes would collapse as a result of a preventative strike by the US and/or Israel. Again, Israel doesn’t even have the capability to neutralize Iran’s nuclear program on its own.

[quote]pat wrote:
Well this is comforting. And it couldn’t have come at a better time.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/14/europe/russia-iran-air-defense-system-sale/index.html[/quote]

My reply to this is the post before yours.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Well this is comforting. And it couldn’t have come at a better time.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/14/europe/russia-iran-air-defense-system-sale/index.html[/quote]

Gosh, wouldn’t it be ironic if they accidentally shot down an American commercial airliner with it?[/quote]

As long as we didn’t fly it over an Iranian battleship in a war zone after continuously threatening the lives of their sailors.

What would be even funnier is if one of our allies, let’s say Saudi Arabia, took a put shot at one of our ships.

edit 1: Anyhow, here’s an interesting article about the consequences of the US bombing Iran’s nuke sites:

Some people on here think Iran is hurting pretty badly right now and that bombing them would hurt them worse. This article says the opposite, militarily anyway, and claims an attack on Iran by the US would have grave consequences.

Which is it?

edit 2: This article claims there are 5,000 known terrorist cells in the United States. Holy hell, we’re doomed.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2015/04/14/3646567/no-go-zones-nra-convention/

Anyone buying this?

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do? [/quote]

Uranium is three times as dense as iron. 141 pounds of U235 would only be about the size of one 45-pound plate.
[/quote]

But will I glow in the dark if I power clean it ?
[/quote]

No, you’ll just start vomiting and shitting uncontrollably, then go into shock, then a coma, then die.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Gosh, wouldn’t it be ironic if they accidentally shot down an American commercial airliner with it?[/quote]

As long as we didn’t fly it over an Iranian battleship in a war zone after continuously threatening the lives of their sailors.[/quote]

Yes, if an American airliner was flying out of Dallas Fort Worth en route to Mexico City, on a regular, published flight path, unaware that there was an Iranian battleship just offshore in the Gulf of Mexico, deep in U.S. territorial waters, and it got shot down in American airspace, without warning, by a missile from the battleship, I suppose it would be entirely the commercial airliner’s fault.

Oh… And just for the sake of shits and giggles, let’s say that Texas is at war with Mexico over some territorial dispute (the Mexicans are trying to get their hands on a rich oil field just over the Rio Grande) making the border and much of the Gulf nominally a “war zone”, and Iran, while not officially at war with the United States, is nonetheless supplying weapons to Mexico.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Gosh, wouldn’t it be ironic if they accidentally shot down an American commercial airliner with it?[/quote]

As long as we didn’t fly it over an Iranian battleship in a war zone after continuously threatening the lives of their sailors.[/quote]

Yes, if an American airliner was flying out of Dallas Fort Worth en route to Mexico City, on a regular, published flight path, unaware that there was an Iranian battleship just offshore in the Gulf of Mexico, deep in U.S. territorial waters, and it got shot down in American airspace, without warning, by a missile from the battleship, I suppose it would be entirely the commercial airliner’s fault.

Oh… And just for the sake of shits and giggles, let’s say that Texas is at war with Mexico over some territorial dispute (the Mexicans are trying to get their hands on a rich oil field just over the Rio Grande) making the border and much of the Gulf nominally a “war zone”, and Iran, while not officially at war with the United States, is nonetheless supplying weapons to Mexico.[/quote]

The way I remember it is we armed both sides…Iran-Contra anyone?

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Gosh, wouldn’t it be ironic if they accidentally shot down an American commercial airliner with it?[/quote]

As long as we didn’t fly it over an Iranian battleship in a war zone after continuously threatening the lives of their sailors.[/quote]

Yes, if an American airliner was flying out of Dallas Fort Worth en route to Mexico City, on a regular, published flight path, unaware that there was an Iranian battleship just offshore in the Gulf of Mexico, deep in U.S. territorial waters, and it got shot down in American airspace, without warning, by a missile from the battleship, I suppose it would be entirely the commercial airliner’s fault.

Oh… And just for the sake of shits and giggles, let’s say that Texas is at war with Mexico over some territorial dispute (the Mexicans are trying to get their hands on a rich oil field just over the Rio Grande) making the border and much of the Gulf nominally a “war zone”, and Iran, while not officially at war with the United States, is nonetheless supplying weapons to Mexico.[/quote]

The way I remember it is we armed both sides…Iran-Contra anyone?
[/quote]

That’s an American tradition.

We funnel guns and money to both sides, prolonging wars that would have otherwise petered out on their own, then step in at the last minute on the side that looks like it’s winning, clobber the other side, and declare that we have single-handedly won the war.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
That’s an American tradition.

We funnel guns and money to both sides, prolonging wars that would have otherwise petered out on their own, then step in at the last minute on the side that looks like it’s winning, clobber the other side, and declare that we have single-handedly won the war.[/quote]

Except I don’t remember us doing that at the end of the Iran/Iraq war. We attacked our alleged ally (who was heavily supplied by the Soviets btw, hence Scud Missiles instead of ATACMS, AKs instead of M249’s, ect).

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
That’s an American tradition.

We funnel guns and money to both sides, prolonging wars that would have otherwise petered out on their own, then step in at the last minute on the side that looks like it’s winning, clobber the other side, and declare that we have single-handedly won the war.[/quote]

Except I don’t remember us doing that at the end of the Iran/Iraq war. We attacked our alleged ally (who was heavily supplied by the Soviets btw, hence Scud Missiles instead of ATACMS, AKs instead of M249’s, ect). [/quote]

Perhaps this will refresh your memory.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iranâ??Iraq_war

Varq, your link didn’t work. Can you repost? Anyway, I would put the incident with Iranian flight 655 into the fog of war category…

Hey, Pat, if you’re reading this, check out this article:

Wow, just what we’ve been saying all along!

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So… I’ve read two or three times this may very well prompt a nuclear arms race…

Any truth to that?[/quote]

So… Yea or Nay?[/quote]

If Iran tests a nuclear weapon, horizontal nuclear proliferation in Southwest Asia is very possible. Saudi Arabia would likely be the first state to follow suit. This could be ameliorated if the US forward deploys nuclear forces in the region, thus extending its nuclear umbrella. A successful final agreement would do much to allay the security dilemma dynamics experienced by Iran’s peers in the region.[/quote]

So that is a yes then?[/quote]

If Iran actually tests an nuclear weapon, there’s already a nuclear arms race in the ME a big one.

A nuclear arms race does not have to take the form of country upon country racing to stockpile as many nuclear warheads as quickly as possible. This, I reckon, is what people think about as a nuclear arms race. And it is, most definitely. But it does not have to look like that to be a problem. It can be much more subtle than that.
Iran has centrifuges, Saudi Arabia ramps up production, Jordan, throws it’s hat into the ring and pretty soon you’ll have a nuclear arms race just in the form of power. Once you have that many nuclear players in the region, it’s not a flying leap toward the bomb. Once you establish a good nuclear program, you’re a a breath away from amassing enough U-235 or plutonium to make a bomb.

“Little Boy” the bomb we dropped on Hiroshima required only 141 lbs of U-235. How long would it take to amass that much U-235 in a place with a fully vetted nuclear power program? Not long.

That’s what makes the world’s asshole tighten up like a bear claw about an Iran with a nuclear program. I think that’s what most of us who don’t like the deal on the books worry about. It only takes one bomb to be a nightmare. It would not take long at all to enrich enough uranium to amass 141 lbs right under the noses of inspectors.

Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do?

Honestly, at this point it’s gone so far that I don’t think we can or will stop them from getting the bomb.

The best way to prevent them from going to far is to take out what they have. I don’t think anybody has the stomach or the balls to do that. Israel might. If they are willing, they have my blessing to proceed. It’s not like that would affect Iranian/ Israeli relations.[/quote]

What you are attempting to refer to is known as nuclear hedging, which doesn’t constitute a nuclear arms race.
[/quote]
Toe-mato, Toe-mahto. This hedging can turn into an arms race in the blink of an eye.

[quote]
I don’t know why I take the time and effort to write substantive posts if no one bothers to read them. Refer to my post at the top of the page.

As it stands, Iran’s breakout time - the time it would take to produce 27 kilograms of 90% enriched uranium - is between 2 and 3 months. A final agreement would increase breakout to 1 year, giving the international community 400-600% more time to respond to an Iranian breakout attempt.The timeline is much longer if Iran attempts to reach that threshold clandestinely by a so-called sneak out.

If attacked now, Iran would merely reconstitute its nuclear program, with the benefit of an unshackled economy. International sanction regimes would collapse as a result of a preventative strike by the US and/or Israel. Again, Israel doesn’t even have the capability to neutralize Iran’s nuclear program on its own.[/quote]

Bombing the shit out of their known nuclear facilities would be a major set back to them. Sure they would try to rebuild and be sneaker about it to boot, but the only real, honest way we are going to prevent Iran from getting ‘the bomb’ is by force.
All the rest of this is just posturing and delaying the inevitable. It’s better than nothing, I guess. Nobody is going to step up to the plate and do what needs to be done, so some politics to keep the dog on the leash is better then letting it run loose. But the only actual, real way to prevent Iran from achieving it’s goal is to take out it’s program.
And who knows, maybe obama is right and sometime before the 15 year mark, they will have a change of heart and become our best buddies in the whole world.

As far as Israel doing it, I am pretty sure they are plenty capable of taking care of it. Nobody but a very select few know what their actual capabilities are. And if anybody in the world has the balls to face down Iran, it’s Israel.

This is all hypothetical in the end. We say ‘all options’ are on the table, but that’s bullshit. Obama would sooner attack Israel than Iran.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Varq, your link didn’t work. Can you repost? Anyway, I would put the incident with Iranian flight 655 into the fog of war category…[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iranâ??Iraq_war

Huh. Try this one. The forum HTML coder sometimes does funny things with em and en dashes, and I think that if this one doesn’t work, then it’s because the en dash between the words Iran and Iraq has become garbled. Replace it if necessary and it should work.

Yeah it did it again. Change “Iran%C3%A2??Iraq_war” to “Iran–Iraq” (with the two hyphens replaced with a short (“en”) dash. Sorry.

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Varq, your link didn’t work. Can you repost? Anyway, I would put the incident with Iranian flight 655 into the fog of war category…

Hey, Pat, if you’re reading this, check out this article:

Wow, just what we’ve been saying all along![/quote]

Yep. There is one sure fire way to check if your foreign policy is the right course of action. WWID. What would Iran do. Or rather, if Iran backs your plan it’s a bad one, if they dislike your plan it’s a good one.
Seriously, if one were to follow that simple rule they wouldn’t have to know shit about foreign policy or anything else. Use Iran as your Magic 8 ball. Whatever they want, do the opposite.
If the Iranian Revolutionary Guard likes your idea, it’s a bad one.

From the article:
“The Obama administration, however, eventually went along with the plan backed by Qassem Suleimani, the head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard’s Quds Force. That plan called for no US troops beyond 2011 and relied on the continued support of the authoritarian Iran-backed regime of Nouri al-Maliki, then Iraq’s prime minister.”

That’s all you need to know.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do? [/quote]

Uranium is three times as dense as iron. 141 pounds of U235 would only be about the size of one 45-pound plate.
[/quote]

But will I glow in the dark if I power clean it ?
[/quote]

No, you’ll just start vomiting and shitting uncontrollably, then go into shock, then a coma, then die.
[/quote]

My understanding is that a high exposure causes your cells to produce H2O2, which is what does the whole ‘blood boiling’ thing. If you’ve ever poured peroxide on to a blood stain, that would be happening inside your body…ouch.
Well that’s what I have read anyway.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do? [/quote]

Uranium is three times as dense as iron. 141 pounds of U235 would only be about the size of one 45-pound plate.
[/quote]

But will I glow in the dark if I power clean it ?
[/quote]

No, you’ll just start vomiting and shitting uncontrollably, then go into shock, then a coma, then die.
[/quote]

My understanding is that a high exposure causes your cells to produce H2O2, which is what does the whole ‘blood boiling’ thing. If you’ve ever poured peroxide on to a blood stain, that would be happening inside your body…ouch.
Well that’s what I have read anyway.
[/quote]

Not hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), hydroxyl (-OH). And the blood doesn’t boil, the hydroxyl isotopes fuck up the cellular DNA so that massive cell death occurs.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
So… I’ve read two or three times this may very well prompt a nuclear arms race…

Any truth to that?[/quote]

So… Yea or Nay?[/quote]

If Iran tests a nuclear weapon, horizontal nuclear proliferation in Southwest Asia is very possible. Saudi Arabia would likely be the first state to follow suit. This could be ameliorated if the US forward deploys nuclear forces in the region, thus extending its nuclear umbrella. A successful final agreement would do much to allay the security dilemma dynamics experienced by Iran’s peers in the region.[/quote]

So that is a yes then?[/quote]

If Iran actually tests an nuclear weapon, there’s already a nuclear arms race in the ME a big one.

A nuclear arms race does not have to take the form of country upon country racing to stockpile as many nuclear warheads as quickly as possible. This, I reckon, is what people think about as a nuclear arms race. And it is, most definitely. But it does not have to look like that to be a problem. It can be much more subtle than that.
Iran has centrifuges, Saudi Arabia ramps up production, Jordan, throws it’s hat into the ring and pretty soon you’ll have a nuclear arms race just in the form of power. Once you have that many nuclear players in the region, it’s not a flying leap toward the bomb. Once you establish a good nuclear program, you’re a a breath away from amassing enough U-235 or plutonium to make a bomb.

“Little Boy” the bomb we dropped on Hiroshima required only 141 lbs of U-235. How long would it take to amass that much U-235 in a place with a fully vetted nuclear power program? Not long.

That’s what makes the world’s asshole tighten up like a bear claw about an Iran with a nuclear program. I think that’s what most of us who don’t like the deal on the books worry about. It only takes one bomb to be a nightmare. It would not take long at all to enrich enough uranium to amass 141 lbs right under the noses of inspectors.

Think about how hard it would be to hide something about the size of 3 45 lbs plates and a 10’er on top in an entire country? Not hard when you have the resources of country to do it. We also do not know what else Iran is hiding. I mean, I know it would come as a shock to all of us Iran wasn’t being completely truthful. And can we really trust our international ‘inspections’ to catch every little thing they do?

Honestly, at this point it’s gone so far that I don’t think we can or will stop them from getting the bomb.

The best way to prevent them from going to far is to take out what they have. I don’t think anybody has the stomach or the balls to do that. Israel might. If they are willing, they have my blessing to proceed. It’s not like that would affect Iranian/ Israeli relations.[/quote]

What you are attempting to refer to is known as nuclear hedging, which doesn’t constitute a nuclear arms race.
[/quote]
Toe-mato, Toe-mahto. This hedging can turn into an arms race in the blink of an eye.

[quote]
I don’t know why I take the time and effort to write substantive posts if no one bothers to read them. Refer to my post at the top of the page.

As it stands, Iran’s breakout time - the time it would take to produce 27 kilograms of 90% enriched uranium - is between 2 and 3 months. A final agreement would increase breakout to 1 year, giving the international community 400-600% more time to respond to an Iranian breakout attempt.The timeline is much longer if Iran attempts to reach that threshold clandestinely by a so-called sneak out.

If attacked now, Iran would merely reconstitute its nuclear program, with the benefit of an unshackled economy. International sanction regimes would collapse as a result of a preventative strike by the US and/or Israel. Again, Israel doesn’t even have the capability to neutralize Iran’s nuclear program on its own.[/quote]

Bombing the shit out of their known nuclear facilities would be a major set back to them. Sure they would try to rebuild and be sneaker about it to boot, but the only real, honest way we are going to prevent Iran from getting ‘the bomb’ is by force.
All the rest of this is just posturing and delaying the inevitable. It’s better than nothing, I guess. Nobody is going to step up to the plate and do what needs to be done, so some politics to keep the dog on the leash is better then letting it run loose. But the only actual, real way to prevent Iran from achieving it’s goal is to take out it’s program.
And who knows, maybe obama is right and sometime before the 15 year mark, they will have a change of heart and become our best buddies in the whole world.

As far as Israel doing it, I am pretty sure they are plenty capable of taking care of it. Nobody but a very select few know what their actual capabilities are. And if anybody in the world has the balls to face down Iran, it’s Israel.

This is all hypothetical in the end. We say ‘all options’ are on the table, but that’s bullshit. Obama would sooner attack Israel than Iran.[/quote]

Again, refer to my long post at the top of page 17. I’m not going to hold your hand and walk you through my line of reasoning only to have it ignored yet again.

They’re incapable of destroying the underground and hardened facilities at Natanz and Fordow without U.S. ordinance. Basic defense analysis using open source intelligence makes that much clear. Israel would also be hard pressed to even get air assets to Iranian airspace, as it has no aircraft carriers. Look at the geography of the region and the limited range of its aircraft. An operation against Iran’s nuclear program is not comparable to the strikes against the above ground Iraqi and Syrian nuclear reactors at Osirak and Surai Deir ez-Zor, respectively.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

I don’t know why I take the time and effort to write substantive posts if no one bothers to read them. Refer to my post at the top of the page.[/quote]

I don’t think it’s so much that nobody bothers to read them as it is that what you’re saying doesn’t align with the prejudices of the readers, so the arguments you make just kinda roll off their backs like water off a duck’s.

It reminds me of trying, with a well-researched and carefully-articulated argument, to convince Jimbo, Billybob and Cooter, who are already in the Ford pickup truck with their AR-15s and shotguns and a case of Miller Lite, not to go beat up the little faggot who lives across town, who might be thinking about maybe buying a cheap .32 revolver…which they perceive as posing a grave personal threat.

[quote]pat wrote:
however, eventually went along with the plan backed by Qassem Suleimani, the head of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard’s Quds Force.

That’s all you need to know.
[/quote]

Surprising he didn’t ask Bin Laden for advise.