Following Politics, Following the Money

[Zeppelin795]

Proof that the propaganda system in the U.S. dumbs down people.

[Zeppelin795]

@anon50325502

Thanks, government!

Yes, how evil. Would the CEO’s make 300 times as much as the typical employee of a Co-Op? No it never would happen.
Would the Co-Ops vote to send their jobs overseas? Again it would not happen.
Most people who participate in a Co-Op live in the community so what are the chances they will pollute their own environment? Not gonna happen.

[Zeppelin795]

@pfury

The market is supposed to crack the whip on greedy human nature

Too bad it doesn’t work.

[pfury]

@Zeppelin795

Too bad it doesn’t work.

Brah it works every damn day for millions of people in this country.

Does it work 100% of the time? Ofc not. But anyone expecting it to probably consumes exclusively alt left propaganda

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

Maybe in the U.S.

…
You want single-payer in the US. →
In the US Stem Cell treatments would be electives. →
Stem Cell treatments would not be covered by a US Single-payer system.

smh…

@Zeppelin795

You’ve implied it several times

@Zeppelin795

Forgive me for not mind-reading.

Just smh…

@Zeppelin795

One run by the people not the managerial class.

This is literally possible in the United States right now.

@Zeppelin795

Co-Ops.

Co-ops aren’t an economic model. They’re a business structure.

@Zeppelin795

So what has this great system done for Americans lately?

We have the strongest economy in the world at this moment in time.

@Zeppelin795

Thrown people out on the streets. Made homeless veterans.

Yes because every single other country in the world doesn’t have this or other (worse) issues.

@Zeppelin795

Have done nothing of the sort. Saying you have is not the same thing.

Whatever, dude.

@Zeppelin795

Total bullshit.

Lolz, whatever. You didn’t know what they were, they’ve existed for well over 200 years, and they aren’t taking over.

@Zeppelin795

And you risk going to jail.

Maybe in a handful of states and that number continue to go down, but that wasn’t the point as usual.

@Zeppelin795

Any proof that it costs more than pharmaceuticals.

smfh

@Zeppelin795

Should I just believe you cause you said it?

I didn’t say it costs more than pharmaceuticals… Dude, fuck…

@Zeppelin795

So why do they bribe politicians?

A) Lobbying =/= bribing if it did then your Bernie Sanders contribution is bribery too. B) You have to be corrupt already to take a bribe.

@Zeppelin795

So I guess that you’re fucking stupid.

Well, you’re wrong 99.9999999999999999999% of the time and I doubt this is the exception.

@pfury

Possibly, but I doubt it. That’s pretty deep in the weeds for someone whose job it is to make a company more efficient, let alone your average shareholder.

Sure, it would need to be someone with a large stake, but I could see it.

@pfury

Not to speak of the inevitable wrongful firing suits that would stem from it. No way it ever comes close to cash flow positive for the company

Eh, if the corp is chartered in an at-will state I don’t see how the employee would have a leg to stand on.

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

Wow, what a nuanced point. Almost as astute as usmccd423.

This is called a joke… You really are a dense fuck.

[anon50325502]

@Zeppelin795

Yes, how evil.

There you go with this good/evil nonsense again.

@Zeppelin795

Would the CEO’s make 300 times as much as the typical employee of a Co-Op? No it never would happen.

1. Very few CEOs make 300x their average employee pay. Like 6 or so, in the world. Average CEO ratio is 70:1 and plenty of co-ops would fall in line with this ratio.
   CEO Pay Ratios, Stats and Infographics | PayScale
   CEO Pay Ratios - Full List | PayScale
   

   
   
   http://www.cobank.com/~/media/Files/Searchable%20PDF%20Files/Events%20Meetings/Speaker%20Presentations/2013CustomerMtgs/Stephen%20Fackler%20%20Board%20Governance.pdf

2. I’m sure you are aware and understand the different operating environment of a co-op v. other business structures…

3. CEO pay ratios are only available for C Corps. So we don’t actually know what the co-op CEO pay ratio is.

You are a fool if you think CEOs of co-ops can’t also be greedy or corrupt. I wonder how much co-ops spend on bridbing, excuse me, lobbying politicans…

@Zeppelin795

Would the Co-Ops vote to send their jobs overseas? Again it would not happen.

Lolz.
There’s literally a federal council dedicated to international cooperatives.
http://www.ocdc.coop/

@Zeppelin795

Most people who participate in a Co-Op live in the community so what are the chances they will pollute their own environment? Not gonna happen.

Cool, bro. I support co-ops. I use a co-op crop share. Not sure what you’re going on about as usual. It has nothing to do with what you quoted, but I don’t expect rational/logical comments from you so it’s not that much of a surprise.

[pfury]

@anon50325502

Sure, it would need to be someone with a large stake, but I could see it.

Even if they had a large stake they’d only be seeing a fraction of the picture. They wouldn’t know the job of the worker (let’s face it most job titles are arbitrary and worthless except when negotiating pay), any and all metrics that could be used to determine effectiveness/efficiency/etc.

@anon50325502

h, if the corp is chartered in an at-will state I don’t see how the employee would have a leg to stand on.

If a Corp fires an employee over a performance issue and they just so happen to also be a target of a shareholder list, sure.

If a Corp fires a guy because of said shareholder list (which would already be a joke of a useless Corp) and can’t tie it to performance, I’d bet you get a settlement EASY.

“IBM fires local ‘insert protected class here’ and claims cause was shareholder list of overpaid employees. Employer cannot at this time find any negative performance to speak of”

[anon50325502]

@pfury

Even if they had a large stake they’d only be seeing a fraction of the picture. They wouldn’t know the job of the worker (let’s face it most job titles are arbitrary and worthless except when negotiating pay), any and all metrics that could be used to determine effectiveness/efficiency/etc.

Agreed, but that won’t stop some people from trying to cut costs based on the limited information available. That’s the double-edged sword that would make the disclosure of all pay a managerial nightmare.

Stakeholder: Project Manager ______ makes 30x the average pay for project managers in the US. You need to fire him and bring in a cheaper alternative.

Management: Dude has been with us for 20+ years does these other 30 things and is worth every penny.

Stakeholder: Cool, just do it my EPS are too low.

@pfury

If a Corp fires a guy because of said shareholder list (which would already be a joke of a useless Corp) and can’t tie it to performance, I’d bet you get a settlement EASY.

I dunno. I’m certainly not an expert on worker rights, but in an at-will state, I’m pretty sure you don’t even have to be told why you’re being fired. Anytime a company mergers with another there are always layoffs unrelated to performance it’s 100% a cost-saving measure, for example.

Sure, if there’s a protected class involved there could be an issue, but I still don’t see the problem in an at-will state.

[pfury]

@anon50325502

Stakeholder: Cool, just do it my EPS are too low

I’d imagine this goes a step further

Management: that pay is nothing compared to the lost revenue we see when we’re getting publicly sued and all the headlines read “local whoever goes on firing spree, targets black people.”

Stakeholder: oh you’re right. If I’m smart enough to even google average pays I should have been smart enough to know that (hue)

@anon50325502

, but in an at-will state, I’m pretty sure you don’t even have to be told why you’re being fired.

Which would be fine. It just creates more ??? For the companies to have to fill in. When they don’t, the market will start guessing. You see the news. How many of those guesses are going to be “he deserved it.”

@anon50325502

Sure, if there’s a protected class involved there could be an issue, but I still don’t see the problem in an at-will state.

You don’t have to WIN the suit in front of a judge. You have to create enough lost value for said company to pay you to go away.

Even all of that would be reliant on finding a unicorn of an investor than can both afford to have that much power AND lack the business knowledge to think seeing 10% of one side of an equation leads to a good decision.

I’m guessing the number of people that fit that scenario across the planet isn’t that high

[anon50325502]

@pfury

Management: that pay is nothing compared to the lost revenue we see when we’re getting publicly sued and all the headlines read “local whoever goes on firing spree, targets black people.”

Stakeholder: oh you’re right. If I’m smart enough to even google average pays I should have been smart enough to know that (hue)

Sure, possibly. Unless the stakeholder is looking to maximize short term gains before exiting.

@pfury

It just creates more ??? For the companies to have to fill in. When they don’t, the market will start guessing. You see the news. How many of those guesses are going to be “he deserved it.”

Again, sure, if it even makes the news. Companies fire people all the time and it doesn’t make the news. We’re talking about middle management here not C-suite employees. I doubt it’d make the news unless the employee made a huge stink about it and there’s a reason (protected class, for example) the news & their consumers would care.

@pfury

You don’t have to WIN the suit in front of a judge. You have to create enough lost value for said company to pay you to go away.

Again, agreed, but most of these folks would be getting severance anyway so I don’t think most are going to jeopardize that to make the company pay in negative publicity. Some, sure, but enough idk.

@pfury

Even all of that would be reliant on finding a unicorn of an investor than can both afford to have that much power AND lack the business knowledge to think seeing 10% of one side of an equation leads to a good decision.

I’m guessing the number of people that fit that scenario across the planet isn’t that high

I think you’d be surprised at how many investors push their agenda’s that are detrimental to the business from management’s perspective.

Remember, a lot of investors push for short-term gains without giving a single shit about the long-term health of a business.

[pfury]

@anon50325502

Unless the stakeholder is looking to maximize short term gains before exiting.

Which isnt a thing in the employee turnover space. Cost to replace and fill ain’t free

@anon50325502

I doubt it’d make the news

You don’t think a highly polarizing topic like “Wall Street targets minorities” wouldn’t be immediately picked up?

@anon50325502

& their consumers would care.

Shit we had people threatening to boycott companies because they sponsored fox n friends. Companies then started caving en masse IMMEDIATELY. public image is a huge dollar cost

@anon50325502

think you’d be surprised at how many investors push their agenda’s that are detrimental to the business from management’s perspective.

Remember, a lot of investors push for short-term gains without giving a single shit about the long-term health of a business.

With costs to replace/etcetc that go along with employee turnover, you’d still be reliant on finding said unicorn that can both afford to make waves AND doesn’t realize he’s actually hurting himself

[anon50325502]

@pfury

Cost to replace and fill ain’t free

Yes, I understand that, but it could be a net savings if comp is reduced by 30% plus any reduction in benefits costs.

@pfury

You don’t think a highly polarizing topic like “Wall Street targets minorities” wouldn’t be immediately picked up?

That probably would, but it isn’t necessarily Wall Street or Minorities. What percentage of company management across issuers is old white guys? You could cut them and get ripples I think.

@pfury

Shit we had people threatening to boycott companies because they sponsored fox n friends. Companies then started caving en masse IMMEDIATELY. public image is a huge dollar cost

Sure because Fox News is highly polarizing. Cutting a job here and a job there, which could save a company millions might not even register in the local news let alone cable news.

@pfury

With costs to replace/etcetc that go along with employee turnover, you’d still be reliant on finding said unicorn that can both afford to make waves AND doesn’t realize he’s actually hurting himself

A lot of the cost to replace isn’t a tangible $ value it’s in the lost experience and re-training costs that will likely take time to surface and if the purpose is a short-term profitability boost it could work.

[pfury]

@anon50325502

Yes, I understand that, but it could be a net savings if comp is reduced by 30% plus any reduction in benefits costs.

Right, COULD. it’d be impossible to actually know that going in. So you’re still reliant on a mostly retarded unicorn.

@anon50325502

What percentage of company management across issuers is old white guys? You could cut them and get ripples I think

But you’d have no way of knowing when said stakeholder decides he has a list of employees to axe. It’s not like they release demographic information with public salary reports

@anon50325502

Cutting a job here and a job there, which could save a company millions might not even register in the local news let alone cable news.

I’d wager if replacing an employee could save a company millions, they’re not going to be the people that aren’t already having their pay released.

@anon50325502

A lot of the cost to replace isn’t a tangible $ value it’s in the lost experience and re-training costs that will likely take time to surface and if the purpose is a short-term profitability boost it could work

A short term profitability boost from replacing an employee?

So you need an investor that has enough capital to make waves, the stock be liquid enough to actually capitalize on the short term profitability boost, not smart enough to know that he’s looking at one part of half the equation, and has the ability to do said analysis in the first place.

I 1000% stand by my statement that demand would be awfully low. retarded unicorn for sure

[anon50325502]

@pfury

Right, COULD. it’d be impossible to actually know that going in.

I think you’re over thinking this.

Person A makes $130K. You fire them and take 2-months to replace this person at $100K. Immediately (two months of no salary expense) you have a $22k savings + benefits (say an additional 25% $5.5k) for total savings of about $28k. Then you have a $2.5K/month + benefits savings for the remainder of the year. So, over a year you’ve saved just shy of $60K less any severance payouts. Do that 10-50 times (which is plausible for even a mid-sized company) and you’ve just saved $500k to $3M in a year. You’re not going to lose that in hiring costs at least not initially. EPS goes up in the short-term, investor bounces with his capital gains, the company suffers in the medium to long-term. Not his problem.

I could definitely see that happening.

@pfury

But you’d have no way of knowing when said stakeholder decides he has a list of employees to axe. It’s not like they release demographic information with public salary reports

You’d be rolling the dice, but you would still need enough minorities or protect class employees to make a newsworthy splash. Companies lay people off all the time in large numbers for no reason and it doesn’t make the news beyond a blurb.

@pfury

I’d wager if replacing an employee could save a company millions, they’re not going to be the people that aren’t already having their pay released.

I meant employees and I can tell you first hand I’m been involved in the analysis of HC reduction and it doesn’t take many heads to reach the million dollar mark when you’re talking about even mid-level management.

@pfury

A short term profitability boost from replacing an employee?

From reducing compensation costs, yes.

@pfury

So you need an investor that has enough capital to make waves

or enough investors to make waves.

@pfury

not smart enough to know that he’s looking at one part of half the equation

I think they can be very much aware that they’re cutting the business’ legs out from under them, but if they aren’t planning to stick around why would they care.

@pfury

I 1000% stand by my statement that demand would be awfully low. retarded unicorn for sure

Plenty of investors think only in the short-term. Plenty of investors will assume higher costing HC can be replaced with lower costing HC without a drop in production, which is possible.

[pfury]

@anon50325502

I think you’re over thinking this.

I sure hope so. The amount of capital in a company to drive that is almost always going to be millions+, and in a ton of scenarios billions+. That’s not the kind of money you get by underthinking

@anon50325502

I could definitely see that happening.

Which adds another level of guesswork. Because now you’re also reliant on finding an employee whose pay is higher than the amount he contributes to the bottom line (all obviously being done blind, by virtue of having essentially zero information) AND you’re reliant on the job market being conducive to replacing an employee for a drastically lower salary.

Employee retention: The real cost of losing an employee

Even if we put said 130k guy down at the lowest tier (despite him being in the highest tier), average cost to replace shakes out to ~$20,800 on the low end. So you’ve immediately killed ~20 of your ~28k. Now you’re required to duplicate that already guesswork task many times to even come close to seeing that EPS needle move.

Is that even worth the use of capital when returns on your actions are that low?

@anon50325502

Companies lay people off all the time in large numbers for no reason and it doesn’t make the news beyond a blurb.

There’s always a reason. And in my experience, the shittier that reason the higher the chance of it getting out. Coupled with it having to be a public reason by virtue of it being pushed by a stakeholder, something that couldn’t be forced without a vote.

@anon50325502

I meant employees and I can tell you first hand I’m been involved in the analysis of HC reduction and it doesn’t take many heads to reach the million dollar mark when you’re talking about even mid-level management.

It does even with the lowest of turnover cost estimates.

@anon50325502

or enough investors to make waves.

But then you’re stuck trying to find even more retarded unicorns that all have a common goal and won’t deviate/be swayed by logic/reason.

@anon50325502

I think they can be very much aware that they’re cutting the business’ legs out from under them, but if they aren’t planning to stick around why would they care.

Because in order to liquidate your position (that already has to be massive to even accomplish this) you HAVE to stick around in at least the medium run. The market doesn’t just poof buyers that all want to pay premium for a stock that’s currently being dumped.

@anon50325502

Plenty of investors will assume higher costing HC can be replaced with lower costing HC without a drop in production, which is possible.

Now we’re assuming they’re ignoring their own ignorance of local job markets as well. Even if we did get full worker demographics and bios (lawl), you’d still be reliant on understanding the job market before making that guess.

[Aragorn]

@Zeppelin795

Proof that the propaganda system in the U.S. dumbs down people

Whatever floats your boat dude

[SkyzykS]

I’m going to fwd. that article to my wife. She sides on keeping employees, but her site is hemorrhaging employees. Like insane attrition rates, and the site director just doesn’t seem to care at all.

She screens hard, but keeps them well on her own program, but between recruiting and upper management though, they’re just running an employee stockade.

[pfury]

@anon50325502 I thought of another one. Your entire HR dept has its knees thoroughly removed at the joints, and any and all of your future comp negotiations put you immediately on the back foot.
edit: and now that I think about it, this is probably the best reason it doesn’t already exist. that level of free comp research would cripple small business

@SkyzykS

She sides on keeping employees, but her site is hemorrhaging employees. Like insane attrition rates, and the site director just doesn’t seem to care at all.

Mind if I ask the industry/context? I currently work for a staffing company that’s part of the largest staffing company on the planet. We’re drowning in literature promoting employee retention.

[SkyzykS]

@pfury

industry/context?

Its an international BPO.