Fixing the Ghetto

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

To avoid your rhetoric, how is it totally irrational?

Becuase you can’t rationalize why we should protect the steel industry at the expense of countless others. You ask, that becuase we protect other industries, why not steel.

I did not say protect, I said to put in a level playing field and a subsidy to get them there

You kind of get that the very idea of comparative advantage means that there is no level playing field?

I am sorry, you cannot produce peaches in Alaska, and apparently you cannot produce steel in the US.

Too bad.

Build something else.

Why can’t you produce steel in America, I could . If it is true that there is no level playing field, then let?s put the field to our advantage

how? by sacrificing other industries?[/quote]

What industries am I sugesting sacrificing ?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

To avoid your rhetoric, how is it totally irrational?

Becuase you can’t rationalize why we should protect the steel industry at the expense of countless others. You ask, that becuase we protect other industries, why not steel.

I did not say protect, I said to put in a level playing field and a subsidy to get them there

You kind of get that the very idea of comparative advantage means that there is no level playing field?

I am sorry, you cannot produce peaches in Alaska, and apparently you cannot produce steel in the US.

Too bad.

Build something else.

Why can’t you produce steel in America, I could . If it is true that there is no level playing field, then let?s put the field to our advantage

You cannot do that without destroying other industries.

Find out what you can build and build it.

What industries and how? I could see a possible price increase but destroy? We will have to be creative or we will have a large portion of what used to be called the Steel valley as having another generation of unemployed people. Your response seems too broad.

[/quote]

The thing is that “we” are never creative.

Some individuals are, and by trying to keep old industries alive you prevent them from building new ones.

I cannot tell you what they will come up with, only that government regulations and taxation stand in the way of those people and therefore progress.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

To avoid your rhetoric, how is it totally irrational?

Becuase you can’t rationalize why we should protect the steel industry at the expense of countless others. You ask, that becuase we protect other industries, why not steel.

I did not say protect, I said to put in a level playing field and a subsidy to get them there

You kind of get that the very idea of comparative advantage means that there is no level playing field?

I am sorry, you cannot produce peaches in Alaska, and apparently you cannot produce steel in the US.

Too bad.

Build something else.

Why can’t you produce steel in America, I could . If it is true that there is no level playing field, then let?s put the field to our advantage

how? by sacrificing other industries?

What industries am I sugesting sacrificing ?

[/quote]

You do not know in advance.

However, if you redirect resources towards the steel industry you direct it away from other industries.

For some of them it will be the straw that breaks their back.

[quote]orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

To avoid your rhetoric, how is it totally irrational?

Becuase you can’t rationalize why we should protect the steel industry at the expense of countless others. You ask, that becuase we protect other industries, why not steel.

I did not say protect, I said to put in a level playing field and a subsidy to get them there

You kind of get that the very idea of comparative advantage means that there is no level playing field?

I am sorry, you cannot produce peaches in Alaska, and apparently you cannot produce steel in the US.

Too bad.

Build something else.

Why can’t you produce steel in America, I could . If it is true that there is no level playing field, then let?s put the field to our advantage

how? by sacrificing other industries?

What industries am I sugesting sacrificing ?

You do not know in advance.

However, if you redirect resources towards the steel industry you direct it away from other industries.

For some of them it will be the straw that breaks their back.

[/quote]

Then how do you predict a sacrifice? It may be a boon.

I don’t think industries that cannot survive should survive. However, it seems the govt’s role to help smooth over transitions via subsidizing trainings and education so that people can transition industries easier.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Then how do you predict a sacrifice? It may be a boon.
[/quote]

This is absolutely correct. The point though is that it should not be government that chooses the sacrificial lamb but rather the market.

It is good when weak businesses die and make room for the stronger businesses. It is bad when strong businesses are made weak and die because of interference and then leave only the weak businesses.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Then how do you predict a sacrifice? It may be a boon.

This is absolutely correct. The point though is that it should not be government that chooses the sacrificial lamb but rather the market.

It is good when weak businesses die and make room for the stronger businesses. It is bad when strong businesses are made weak and die because of interference and then leave only the weak businesses.[/quote]

Problem is, no business has replaced the Steel industry, I do not know but my home town probably had 10,000 steel workers out of a population of 70,000 then you had all the supporting businesses

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
I don’t think industries that cannot survive should survive. However, it seems the govt’s role to help smooth over transitions via subsidizing trainings and education so that people can transition industries easier.

[/quote]

I got some of the training Reagan promised, it was how to live under a bridge

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Cheaper

First of all, American steel mills got raped by European steel mills who probably have to deal with more laws than American companies.

Then, the liberal idea of free trade first opposed corn tariffs in England that had the same effects as any other tariff, they made bread expensive, hurt the poor people and made a few landlords rich, so no, the idea of free trade and classic liberalism always was to help the little guy.

That the little guy usually is too shortsighted to get this and votes for the very restrictions that cost him is a tragedy and enough to make any libertarian entrepreneur just a tad cynical.

So you do not think to be in the American Market that you should have to play by the American Rules. There is some truth about the European market dominating, but the European market had free health care and several had big subsidies from their country

There was also a lot of steel coming out of China, Thailand and other Asian countries
America could have given the steel industry tax breaks to bring their processes out of the dark ages. You can not disable a large area of American industry, for any reason, and tell me it is good for America.

Reagan job was to do the best by the country, not do the best by the market. Just think of the lost taxes on the income of employees alone and not any other supporting industry

[/quote]

So what you’re saying is that their government gave the business money so we could buy cheaper steel. Sounds like we won out on that deal. They pissed away their gov’t funding and sent it over to us. A lot of it went into making more buyildings here (good work), or producing automobiles (also, very good work). You are preventing at LEAST two industries from growing because some people in the steel (rust?) belt refused to move to find work.

yay.

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

What industries am I sugesting sacrificing ?

[/quote]

That depend on what exactly you are suggesting. The part about not proposing protectionism kind of through me for a loop.

You can correct me if I am wrong here, but you seem to think all it will take is a bit of investment by the gov’t.

If this was indeed the problem and investment would provide a return on that investment, we would not need gov’t to make it. The free market has a pretty good record of investing in companies that provide a return.

If there is no return on investment or it is not as attractive as other investments, the free market tend not to make this investment. If gov’t makes it anyway, where does the money come from? From the only place it can?the free market. So now gov’t has made the investment decision on our behalf. Investment in the steel industry is made at the expense of other, more efficient investments.

Seems pretty simple to me. Let?s dig a bit deeper and look at the long run effects.

Assuming the free market has recognized investments in particular steel industries would produce a loss or insufficient return, history has told us the tax payer will be on the hook for far more than some magical initial investment by gov?t. The gov’t will continue to protect their investment by continuing to subsidize it or put protective tariffs in place. Sound familiar?

We’ve already gone over how the only investments the gov’t makes are less than productive, as the free market would have made the investment if it was productive compared to other investments. So again, this money has to come from somewhere. Inflation or at the expense of other more productive investments. Pick your poison.

Tariffs provide a different problem all together. We’ve already gone over this but I’ll take another stab. Maybe it will sink in or you will at least acknowledge it.

If you force American producers of goods that require steel, to buy it at a higher price just because they are in this country, what do you think will happen? You can start with these industries not being able to compete internationally because of higher input costs. The story ends with the industry relocating to where they can be competitive or disappearing all together. Either way, jobs gone. Especially when exacerbated by high corporate taxes relative to other countries one could chose to do business or invest.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

how? by sacrificing other industries?[/quote]

This is your quote ,One problem with communicating with you is you have a problem staying focused , now you are asking me to answer your questions ,

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

how? by sacrificing other industries?

This is your quote ,One problem with communicating with you is you have a problem staying focused , now you are asking me to answer your questions ,

[/quote]

I provided the logic behind my insinuation that other industries would be lost. I cannot help you if you are unable to comprehend logic.

I wasn’t questioning myself, I was questioning you. Why would I answer my own question?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
orion wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

To avoid your rhetoric, how is it totally irrational?

Becuase you can’t rationalize why we should protect the steel industry at the expense of countless others. You ask, that becuase we protect other industries, why not steel.

I did not say protect, I said to put in a level playing field and a subsidy to get them there

You kind of get that the very idea of comparative advantage means that there is no level playing field?

I am sorry, you cannot produce peaches in Alaska, and apparently you cannot produce steel in the US.

Too bad.

Build something else.

Why can’t you produce steel in America, I could . If it is true that there is no level playing field, then let?s put the field to our advantage

You cannot do that without destroying other industries.

Find out what you can build and build it.

What industries and how? I could see a possible price increase but destroy? We will have to be creative or we will have a large portion of what used to be called the Steel valley as having another generation of unemployed people. Your response seems too broad.

[/quote]

Hickey please answer this one

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Reagan job was to do the best by the country, not do the best by the market. Just think of the lost taxes on the income of employees alone and not any other supporting industry

Best by the country as a whole or one particular industry? Free trade gives us far more jobs than it takes away. Look what happened after NAFTA.

NAFTA is a trade agreement, give me an example where we compete with third world countries industries and can beat their price, I agree there is a short upside to lower prices.
We will not mention lead base paint, melamine in the protein powder, just price
Also please answer what happened to America post, Thanks

We don’t have to compete with them in any particular industry. They are third world contries for a reason. We can focus on what others cannot do. Comparative advantage.

copy and paste:

U.S. employment increased over the period of 1993-2007 from 110.8 million people to 137.6 million people, a 24 percent increase.[1] Specifically within NAFTA?s first five years of existence, 709,988 jobs (140,000 annually), were created domestically.[2]

Proponents point out that had there been any significant negative impact on the labor force because of NAFTA, it would have been evident in the initial years. Yet, the mid to late nineties was one of the United States? biggest periods of economic growth.

Classical macroeconomic theory stipulates that when a country is experiencing economic growth (i.e. increase in GDP or GDP per capita), then there will also be an increase in the participation of the labor force.[3] Thus, because trade liberalization ultimately contributes to increases in GDP, it in effect, helps to bring the rate of unemployment down in a country.

The U.S. experienced a 48% increase in real GDP from 1993-2005. The unemployment rate over this period was an average of only 5.1%, compared to 7.1% from 1982-1993, before NAFTA was implemented.[2]

Proponents reject the claims of some that the free trade agreement is destroying the manufacturing industry and causing displacement of workers in that industry. In the period of 1981-1995, the years from ?93-?95 saw the highest rate of job loss, even during this period of great expansion.[4]

However, the rate of job loss due to plant closings, a typical argument against NAFTA, showed little deviation from previous periods.[4] The percentage of workers in the manufacturing industry with job loss actually decreased from 13.8 % in 1991-1993, pre-NAFTA years, to 11.8% in the years from 1993-1995.

Also, US industrial production, in which manufacturing makes up 78%, saw an increase of 49% from 1993-2005. The period prior to NAFTA, 1982-1993, only saw a 28% increase.[2] In fact, according to NAM, National Association of Manufacturers, NAFTA has only been responsible for 10% of the manufactured goods trade deficit, something opponents criticize the agreement for helping to foment.[5]

In the manufacturing sector, NAFTA yielded 43% of US manufacturing export growth and only 28% of import growth.

The most direct measurement of the impact of trade agreements on employment is the number of jobs supported by exports.[6] It is estimated that 8500 manufacturing jobs are supported by every $1 billion in US exports.[2] Because $12 billion of average annual gains in exports were created by expansion of North American trade, more than 100,000 additional US jobs were created.[2]

More importantly, it has been noted that in export-oriented industries where some of the lost manufacturing jobs go, wages are 13-16 percent higher than the national average.[2]

Others agree with the notion that there has been an increase in net jobs due to NAFTA?s implementation, but believe that these net gains are coming at the price of worker?s wages.[citation needed] That is, high-paying manufacturing jobs are being lost and replaced by lower paying jobs and is causing wage deflation in certain sectors.

However, during the Clinton administration, the sources of new job creation were in relatively high paid sectors and industries.[7] The fall in median wages, which are often associated with the middle class factory workers, stagnated because the inflation-adjusted pay rates for existing jobs fell, not because newer jobs that replaced manufacturing jobs were low-paying ones.[citation needed]

Personally do not understand how an American company selling it?s product in America does not have to compete with all the third world companies selling their products in America, please explain
The cut and paste part, I fail to see relevance, Also please answer what happened to America.
You seemed to get caught in rhetoric that does not pertain to any post. Why do you not just answer the questions rather than try to seem so wise.
[/quote]

Please answer this one Hickey

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Personally do not understand how an American company selling it?s product in America does not have to compete with all the third world companies selling their products in America, please explain

Does a hockey player compete with a tennis player? The point is that we don’t have to make the same products. Why on earth would we? There are lots of products we don’t have to make. That is the point of free trade and comparitive advantage.

The cut and paste part, I fail to see relevance, Also please answer what happened to America.
You seemed to get caught in rhetoric that does not pertain to any post. Why do you not just answer the questions rather than try to seem so wise.

I don’t what you are talking about here. I thought the cut and paste illustrated quite well what happened to America. Did you miss the part about increase jobs and wealth?

I don’t know how a cut and paste of someone else’s information can come of as being “wise”. I just did a simple search and posted facts, not rhetoric.

I think you hockey player using tennis balls make my point. Why do speak in analogies. Why do you not ever answer a question? The question is if American companies are making cars and Chinese companies are making cars with slave labor, using inferior, and are totally fucking up the environment, why would we allow them to drive down the price of American Cars. What benefit can America get from losing money to unfair completion for American Dollars?
[/quote]

Please answer this one hickey

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

Who is receiving more of what from whom?

if you are talking about individuals…it depends.

if you are talking about some group of people that participate in various industries…those with no trade restrictions.

If we are talking about net benefit, the only beneficial application of trade restrictions would be with those that hostile. This decision would be tacticle not stratigic.

"You do understand in the this example we are getting more from China then we are giving in return. "

What more are we getting, other than a huge hole in our manufacturing base and a boat load of tainted products. China is walking away with a lot of American dollars, is that what you are talking about?

All you have to do is try just a little bit. What can they do with American dollars? Those dollars have to be spent in America eventually. It would be silly not to get as much in return for them. So we get a bunch of goods that we wouldn’t have had for the same amount domestically. They then have to spend or invest those dollars here, creating jobs in areas we are actually competitive in.

We need manufacturing jobs like we need wagon and buggy manufactures. The specific job matter little. What matters is that we get as much for our dollar and that jobs are created overall.

We need manufacturing jobs, back in the old Steel Valley, now referred as the rust belt; you have a whole generation of young men that never had a job that could support themselves let alone a family. This area used to be strong middle class, everybody had a job, and it is poor now
Your opinion that America does not need manufacturing boggles my mind. We do not need many buggy or whip factories, but we need a numerous other manufactured goods. We need more jobs than we have to do them

We need jobs. This we can agree on. The type of job matters little. We need people to have the oportunity to earn a livable wage. The inuits in Alaska don’t have manufacturing. Bahrain (sp?) doesn’t have manufacturing. You need to get over this.

Now, how do we compete for jobs? How do we get investment and companies to come here?

High corporate tax, or no corporate tax?

Artificially high cost of goods, or world price for goods?

Restictive labor laws, or freedom of association?

Huge Bureaucracies sucking capital, or keeping capital in the market?

Irrational monetary policy, or sane policy that allows speculation of return on investment?

People spending more money on few goods and services, or people having a surplus after purchasing these same goods and services?

As soon as well all understand that we are competing for jobs and investment, the solutions become very clear. If accept that gov’t can create or legislate jobs, we are in trouble.

What jobs do you recommend to have a reemergence of the middle class?
[/quote]

Please answer this one and I am tired of retrieving the questions you dodge

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

how? by sacrificing other industries?

This is your quote ,One problem with communicating with you is you have a problem staying focused , now you are asking me to answer your questions ,

I provided the logic behind my insinuation that other industries would be lost. I cannot help you if you are unable to comprehend logic.

I wasn’t questioning myself, I was questioning you. Why would I answer my own question? [/quote]

Please answer what industries wold be sacrificed

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

What industries and how? I could see a possible price increase but destroy? We will have to be creative or we will have a large portion of what used to be called the Steel valley as having another generation of unemployed people. Your response seems too broad.

Hickey please answer this one
[/quote]

I have many times over already. If you put in tarrifs on imports, any industries that use steel and wish to sell internationally.

If you merely subsidize them, other industries that would have recieved this investment.

What is so hard to understand here? Is asking for specific industries or companies your way of avioding the logic of this?

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

What jobs do you recommend to have a reemergence of the middle class?

Please answer this one and I am tired of retrieving the questions you dodge
[/quote]

I don’t have to answer this. That is the point. Jobs are created organically, not by gov’t edict. You’re the one dodging by asking for specific examples. 50 years ago, how many people would have predicted the industry we have today for computer programers?

I am done playing your stupid little game. If you want to discuss the logic of anything I have said, right on. If not, I am not going to waste my time with you.

[quote]dhickey wrote:
pittbulll wrote:

What jobs do you recommend to have a reemergence of the middle class?

Please answer this one and I am tired of retrieving the questions you dodge

I don’t have to answer this. That is the point. Jobs are created organically, not by gov’t edict. You’re the one dodging by asking for specific examples. 50 years ago, how many people would have predicted the industry we have today for computer programers?

I am done playing your stupid little game. If you want to discuss the logic of anything I have said, right on. If not, I am not going to waste my time with you.[/quote]

The problem is nothing has come by organically , and we have vast unemployment in the old rust belt. How are we going to fix it.