Filibusters

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Maybe it’s not the correct way to ust this “tool” but can we really kill it because we don’t like one of it’s outcomes?
[/quote]

When the use of this rule overrides the express written directive of the U.S. Constitution then it should be changed so that it no longer has the potential to usurp the powers given expressly to the executive branch.

No one has EVER proffered the abolition of the filibuster. They are going to change it so that a straight up or down vote - which is specifically stated in the constitution - does not turn into a defacto super-majority.

The only reason this is even an issue is because the left has bastardized all of the minority rights in an attempt to hold onto power that they have lost steadily since 1994.

Really, I appreciate you making more out of this than I originally intended–I would hate to be dead horse. I completely understand what it was I meant–maybe I was not making myself clear.

No, a filibuster will not ultimately stop an amendment that has a “supermajority”–this is afterall what it takes to get it through congress.

The argument I was trying to make was that keeping the dialog going btwn differing opinions is what our country was founded on. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. In a larger sense I guess I’m trying to relate to the kid who always got picked on, “I don’t give a crap if you’re bigger and more powerful, I’m gonna throw your tea in the harbour anyway.”

I do not believe that the powers of the senate are usurping the executive branch. I don’t believe that the senate has the ultimate last say in these matters nor do I beleive that the president has the authority to stop a filibuster (nor should he). If the senate allows a filibuster to happen it is of their own doing–what is the problem? Isn’t the bigger picture that we should be glad we aren’t letting any side have the last say?

You make my point for me with that rant about stopping right wing nut judges from getting appointed. No left wing nut would get appointed to a bench either. Nor would we want it. It’s pretty clear in order to get elected in this country you have to appeal to the middle of the road–with the exception of the few of us on the far end of the spectrum. So then shouldn’t the appointees be somewhere in the middle, too? Yes, I am very afraid of the long term damage that can be created with one appointment.

The things I am afraid of:

Overturning a woman’s right to choose; Putting a man in an office that he once thought pointless; Some zealot deciding it’s okay for my kids to pray in school (it’s not a church) or what morals should be displayed on public (State funded) walls. I could go on and on.

The fact is Bush was re-elected with a narrow margin–his appointees should make it in with the exact same margin–or not at all. By golly, at least don’t make it easy on them.

[quote]Cream wrote:
I wish Frist had the balls to let them shut the senate down. “C’mon, fuckers! Filibuster all ten judges, and let’s talk about why you all don’t want to allow them to occupy offices which they are eminently qualified for! Get on the news and talk for 500 hours about why you don’t want these people. Eventually you will let the truth slip – no remotely religious people allowed!” I’m not religious and I find this ignorant position by the liberal wing of the democrat party (i.e. 90+% of the modern party) patently offensive, and I think it is tantamount to political suicide.

I want ted kennedy and nancy pelosi and john kerry and barbara boxer and howard dean and barney frank and al franken calling some of these fine, moderate judges “religious nuts” and “activists”. This will ensure that no democrat will be elected in the south, the midwest, and the west for a generation.[/quote]

The fact remains: they are “religious nuts” to those of us that believe the way we do. On the one had it is political suicide on the other it’s just calling the way we see it.

I too would love to see these people come out and say it–but lets be honest All these people are nuts too. I want to hear it said so that I can have faith in the democratic party once again. This is the party that is supposed to support the seperation of church and state not sway to the overwhelming newly religious voters (as an aside, I really beleive Bush made it “cool” to be religous and republican and it is to his credit that he brought the right wing religous vote to the polls). And lets’s really talk about why we don’t want to let these people in–I don’t want to live in a policed-church-state. Am I being overly dramatic? Maybe. But what’s to stop the inevitable snowball effect from one appointment? All it takes is one decision from a court appointment to set a precedence.

I am not saying don’t get mad about these “liberals” in congress. It’s probably a good thing that you are. It means you are thinking for yourself. I may not agree with you but at least you have an opinion. I have relatives who wouldn’t know what their own opinions were if thay had any of their own to begin with.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Really, I appreciate you making more out of this than I originally intended–I would hate to be dead horse. I completely understand what it was I meant–maybe I was not making myself clear.

No, a filibuster will not ultimately stop an amendment that has a “supermajority”–this is afterall what it takes to get it through congress.

The argument I was trying to make was that keeping the dialog going btwn differing opinions is what our country was founded on. Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness. In a larger sense I guess I’m trying to relate to the kid who always got picked on, “I don’t give a crap if you’re bigger and more powerful, I’m gonna throw your tea in the harbour anyway.”

I do not believe that the powers of the senate are usurping the executive branch. I don’t believe that the senate has the ultimate last say in these matters nor do I beleive that the president has the authority to stop a filibuster (nor should he). If the senate allows a filibuster to happen it is of their own doing–what is the problem? Isn’t the bigger picture that we should be glad we aren’t letting any side have the last say?

You make my point for me with that rant about stopping right wing nut judges from getting appointed. No left wing nut would get appointed to a bench either. Nor would we want it. It’s pretty clear in order to get elected in this country you have to appeal to the middle of the road–with the exception of the few of us on the far end of the spectrum. So then shouldn’t the appointees be somewhere in the middle, too? Yes, I am very afraid of the long term damage that can be created with one appointment.

The things I am afraid of:

Overturning a woman’s right to choose; Putting a man in an office that he once thought pointless; Some zealot deciding it’s okay for my kids to pray in school (it’s not a church) or what morals should be displayed on public (State funded) walls. I could go on and on.

The fact is Bush was re-elected with a narrow margin–his appointees should make it in with the exact same margin–or not at all. By golly, at least don’t make it easy on them. [/quote]

I’m getting the distinct impression that English is your second language (and that you learned it in a country other than the U.S.). Please correct me if I’m mistaken. If so, bravo – you communicate very well. Much better than I could do in the two languages I have at some point pretended to try to learn, French and Spanish.

However, I think you’re missing some background information that would help you to interpret this information.

Specifically, in the legal history of this country, it has been very important to not let one branch of government usurp the power of another. In fact, the belief is that separation of powers is important enough that it is generally not allowed even for one branch to cede extensive power inherent to that branch to another branch (with a few regrettable exceptions).

Also, I don’t think you’re examining this issue from the perspective of logical consequences. Namely, a large part of the end of my previous post was devoted to exploring some of the logicial consequences that would follow from the position you stated above, which was that the filibuster could be applied in any way that was not specifically enumerated as banned in the Constitution.

It would not be logical, given the structure of our government, and given the importance of balance of powers between the branches, to interpret a little clause of small import that granted the Senate the ability to set its own procedural rules to overpower specific grants of power to the Executive that are inherent to the functioning of the government.

Also, I want to reiterate that there is nothing wrong with the filibuster (which is nowhere mentioned in the Constitution, by the way) in and of itself. The only problem is in the specific application of the filibuster that infringes on the Executive appointments power.

And that is all that the majority party in the Senate intends to address – in fact, it may not even address the whole problem, and may confine themselves to judicial appointments.

George Bush made it cool to be religious? Then why would bill clinton suddenly become a religious man when he ran for office? Why would john kerry make the absurd claim that he was a devout Catholic? Whether you like it or not, and whether it’s like this in your neighborhood or not, the majority of people in the US are religious, including millions of democrats. This is why all democrats running for major office suddenly remember that when they were 12 they were baptists, and they just as suddenly become devout.

I think the best thing the republicans could do to ensure electoral landslide would be to let the democrats, particularly the shrill permissives that I mentioned above, get on national TV and insult and degrade the influence of faith on character, and to insinuate as they have been doing that people of faith are not capable of doing their jobs effectively. Let it go on and on and make sure it’s all over the news. This would go over like a brick in moderate democratic states in the upper midwest and the southwest. It would be like ordering a trophy for Giuliani or Condi or whoever wants to run for office next time as a conservative.

No you’re not being overly dramatic with the religious police state thing. Just stupid, like George Lucas over the weekend comparing George Bush to the emperor. Both show total lack of perspective.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The fact is Bush was re-elected with a narrow margin–his appointees should make it in with the exact same margin–or not at all. By golly, at least don’t make it easy on them. [/quote]

Time to hit the books on how the government works. Representation in congress, where the laws are written and the “advise and consent” function in question occurs, is independent of the presidential election. So a Senate vote with perfect party discipline would go 55-45 Republican, because they have been winning elections, whether W won by 5 billion votes or one vote.

For anyone interested, you can read Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe’s attempt to defend this use of the filibuster here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~petehill/statements/tribe.shtml

It speaks volumes in its complete silence on addressing the Separation of Powers arguments that are the crux of the Constitutionality question – he spends many more words making long analogies to “nuclear” than in any actual analysis. When a Constitutional expert spends 3/4 of his supposed defense of something not talking about the Constitution, you can make a lot of good inferences about the strength of his Constitutional position.

And what he does manage to say is incredibly weak for two reasons. First, he is arguing about how important it is that the Senate has the power to set its own rules, and then in the same breath is turning around and arguing that any change in the rules amounts to some unfair manipulation in a childhood game.

Secondly, he criticizes the majority for “only” wanting to change the rule w/r/t judicial nominations, and not with respect to other nominations. That’s definitely a fair criticism, but it would only apply if all the applications vis a vis the Presidential Appointment Power were Unconstitutional. ANd it would be amusing, as in the face of all the charges of “extremism,” it is a criticism of the majority for not changing things drastically enough.

Nice way to throw in the Star Wars reference.

I hardly believe Bill Clinton became religious or made it cool in the way Bush did when he used his faith. I don’t think Clinton played the faith card as heavily as Bush did with his born-again-ex-coke-head-alcoholic tactic–and if he did the real bible bangers saw right through him. Oh that’s right Clinton’s sin was not forgivable in Christ’s eyes.

The truth is religion has alway played favorably on the right and the right has always called the left godless. So yes please someone stand up on the left and say what’s on your mind–the evangelical right cannot use religion for it’s own gain. The fallibility of religion mixed with government belongs to both the left and the right. You make a huge stereotype (I realise it’s much easier than lookig up any facts for yourself) saying all democratic candidates remember their faith only when running for political office.

Hey I don’t care one way or the other. I think they’re all nuts–but that’s for me to deal with.

I learned a long time ago that trusting your faith can sometimes lead you down the wrong road. This is why I am so dead set against it’s use to make rational desicions. Faith by it’s very nature is not rational. I think asking people to put their trust in someone else’s faith is completely wrong. I understand sometimes our faith is all we have–I’m just as guilty–afterall I have no real proof that Bush is incablable of leading a country (except for over a thousand dead soldiers and marines and no WMD)–just a gut feeling.

If I may stray in the hope of making a point:
Albert Einstein himself was a very religious man–He did not understand how God would allow such chaotic behavior (unpredictable) in a precise and elegant universe. He never accepted what has become the cornerstone of our modern understanding of the universe–Quantum Mechanics. Our deepest, most intimate faith can blind us. I just wish the people who shout so loudly about their faith would recognise that it may not be other’s way of understanding.

I’ve never heard any one accuse someone of not being able to do their job because of their religious beliefs. Is it wrong to question someone’s belifs when it comes to the greater good of a country?

Thank-you for telling us how we should interpret it. I guess you are much more intelligent than the rest of us. I admit I don’t have a J.D. or whatever a three year law school degree is these days. Who are you to decide what is a “fair” analysis for the rest of us?

[quote]Cream wrote:
Time to hit the books on how the government works. Representation in congress, where the laws are written and the “advise and consent” function in question occurs, is independent of the presidential election. So a Senate vote with perfect party discipline would go 55-45 Republican, because they have been winning elections, whether W won by 5 billion votes or one vote. [/quote]

True, but I would expect that the way Congress votes WRT a presidential apointee would mirror the way the electoral college voted in George W. Bush. They are made up of the same respective populations that got them where they are–with a degree of uncertainty taken into account. I was merely offering it as a model to what should be a comfortable lead by the incumbant. Without becoming too quantitative I believe the electoral count was 51-49% Bush. I would expect the total congress vote to be roughly the same.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Thank-you for telling us how we should interpret it. I guess you are much more intelligent than the rest of us. I admit I don’t have a J.D. or whatever a three year law school degree is these days. Who are you to decide what is a “fair” analysis for the rest of us?[/quote]

Thanks for adding this wonderfully useful input to the subject. It added so much to everyone’s understanding and perceptions of the underlying issues.

Firstly, I wasn’t trying to give a “fair” analysis, I was trying to give a good analysis. I’m sure, being a scientist and all, you know the difference between the two.

Secondly, I went out of my way and looked up a counter-position to my position by the guy who is perhaps the pre-eminent liberal Constitutional scholar in the country, and I linked it for your benefit. So go read it.

Then, after you read it, why don’t you see whether you think my critique of his analysis is a good analysis and a valid critique.

Now, do you have a Constitutional analysis? Or do you have more opinions based on what you would like to see that are in no way related to the Constitution? Either way, I’m sure they will be amusing fodder for discussion.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Thank-you for telling us how we should interpret it. I guess you are much more intelligent than the rest of us. I admit I don’t have a J.D. or whatever a three year law school degree is these days. Who are you to decide what is a “fair” analysis for the rest of us?[/quote]

For your further benefit, here’s a point-by-point analysis of the Laurence Tribe piece, by Pepperdine Constitutional Law professor Douglas Kmiec. Hopefully his analysis will meet your high standards, as what I humbly put forth with my puny intelligence apparently fell so short as to make your summary dismissal so valid…

Note that Professor Kmiec’s counter-points will be denoted with italics.

The Nuclear vs. The Constitutional Option ?

The constitutional instruction to the Senate is to give “advice and consent,” not to confuse and equivocate.

Point ? Counterpoint

There’s is a good reason the Republicans have used the phrase “Nuclear Option” to describe the technique they threaten to deploy in order to change the rules under which the Senate performs its constitutional role of “advise and consent” with respect to presidential nominations to the federal bench. Nuclear weapons, we all know, are uniquely threatening. The reason isn’t simply that they devastate everything within a defined radius from ground zero. Other weapons have been devised that can do that. What is distinctive about nuclear weapons is that they leave behind a radioactive legacy that poisons generations yet unborn. Thus they cast a permanent shadow over the future. In two important and distinct respects, what the Majority Leader threatens to do is not merely nuclear but thermonuclear in its implications.

First, the substantive area in which the nuclear device is to be detonated is particularly rich in radioactive materials whose half-life is measured not in years but in decades. Each federal judge, and ultimately each Supreme Court Justice, who is confirmed by the new technique will serve for life. Such a judge, even when wielding only a single vote, is empowered to alter the legal landscape we must all share not just during the current Bush presidency but through a likely succession of presidents of both parties and of many different philosophical bents. This President and Senate were put in power by a narrowly divided national electorate not because it prefers judges in the mold of Justices Scalia and Thomas, the president’s unabashed role models for the job, but principally because of 9/11 and a reluctance to change leaders in the midst of the “war on terrorism.”

This assumes something very much not in evidence - that there is a singular published and accepted reason for an electoral outcome. The president campaigned in direct reference to, among other matters, the war, reforming social programs, as well as the appointment of men and women of appropriate judicial demeanor to the bench.

How absurd it is in a constitutional democracy for that national mood suddenly to be transformed, by an unyielding president and a rigidly ideological Senate majority, into a mandate to project into the distant future, and over the opposition of more than enough Senators to have precluded confirmation under the rules that prevailed until now, a firm determination to roll back reproductive freedom, weaken the separation of church and state, disengage from the rest of the world on issues like global warming and genocide, and take other steps so radical that we may well bequeath our children and grandchildren a nation profoundly different from the one we take for granted.

This is simply a partisan preference for some policy outcomes over others. In some respects, as a matter of politics, I may share Professor Tribe’s preferences, though in others I would not. Our preferences as voters and residents of Massachusetts and California, respectively, matter, but they do not determine the meaning of the law or the Constitution. Separating preference from law does illustrate President Bush’s point, however - judges should be appointed who will follow the law as enacted by the people, not as desired by the judges, or Professor Tribe and myself.

Second, unlike the standard procedure in which a small nuclear explosion provides the heat that generates the thermonuclear fusion of a hydrogen bomb, here it is a hydrogen bomb that will have to be detonated first, triggering the nuclear explosion of a radically altered judicial branch. For a change in the currently governing Rules of the Senate is a necessary prerequisite of this transformation in the composition of the judiciary - a transformation that will begin with a handful of circuit court judges but that is of course designed to be reenacted each time there is a vacancy on the Supreme Court. But the currently governing Senate Rules, including those that regulate the conduct and ending of a filibuster by a cloture vote, include a vitally important “meta-rule” providing that the rules themselves may be altered only by a specified supermajority vote.

[i]Yes, the Senate has the power to set its own rules, including the rule on how to change the rules. The Senate has been setting, and re-setting, its rules from the beginning. What has been forgotten, or is being conveniently overlooked, is that every Senate should have at least one opportunity to approve the continuation of carry-over rules. Without this singular opportunity, the Senate is no longer a fully representative body - representing the people who put them in office ? but merely the dead hand of the past.

Full Senate consideration is exactly what the framers anticipated. The Senate’s very role in the confirmation process was justified by Hamilton in Federalist Nos. 76 and 77 on the supposition that it would be exercised “by the whole body, by an entire branch of the legislature.” It is only the regrettable, latter-day onset of Democrat filibusters that have defeated nominees for whom a majority of the Senate has expressed support.

That the juxtaposition of majority approval with defeat is deeply problematic for a democracy explains why it is unprecedented to require 60 members (the number needed to end a filibuster) to confirm judges. A judicial filibuster was attempted successfully only once in our history, when LBJ tried to elevate Abe Fortas to be Chief Justice and his nomination went seriously awry over personal financial questions. But Fortas never had the support of a majority of the Senate, and he quickly withdrew. There was some filibuster talk over a handful of Clinton nominees (Breyer, Barkett, Sarokin, Paez and Berson), but wisely, the full Senate voted on each and each went on to serve.

Obstructing judicial nominees with majority support is no small matter. Doing so not only thwarts the President, it also exacerbates the increasingly heavy workload of the independent judicial branch - which, in turn, affects anyone whose life, liberty or property is at issue before a federal tribunal.

The Constitution allows the Senate to set its own rules. Yet, this rule-making power is not unlimited. No one should contemplate the Senate ever adopting a rule categorically excluding women or African-Americans or Catholics from serving on the federal bench. The Bill of Rights would rightly trump such bias. And while there is no similar trump denying a 60 vote requirement to cut off debate on judicial nominations, this super-majority vote requirement is nevertheless constitutionally deficient for one simple reason: this Senate - the 109th - has never adopted it.

The 60-vote cloture rule is a carryover from a previous Senate and merely imposed on the present body. Every two years, the Senate’s composition changes as one-third of its membership stands for election. An ever enlarging group of Senators, led by Senator John Cornyn (R_TX), has rightly asked why they, as more recently elected members, have never had a say over Senate process.

According to the present Democrat leadership, the new guys are just out of luck. You see, they say, another rule requires 67 votes to change the 60 vote rule. And where did the 67 vote rule come from? Yep, it, too, comes from a previous Senate. And so it goes. The people of the several States elect new Senators, but if Senator Reid is to be believed, the new folks are stuck with old rules effectively denying their representational voice.

This cannot be, and is not, the law. An unbroken chain of Supreme Court rulings anchored in English common law as venerable as Sir William Blackstone provides that “every succeeding Legislature possesses the same jurisdiction and power. . . as its predecessors. The latter must have the same power of repeal and modification which the former had of enactment, neither more nor less.”

That the Senate Democrats have disregarded this ancient precept and are operating outside the Constitution has prompted Senator Frist to contemplate asserting the prerogative of a majority of the existing Senate membership to change the carryover rules to allow a similar majority to exercise the power of advice and consent. Derisively, this has been dubbed by the Democrats as “the nuclear option,” but in truth, it is the constitutional one.

And don’t just take my word for it. Consider the following:

“[T]he members of the Senate who met in 1789 and approved the first body of rules did not for one moment think, or believe, or pretend, that all succeeding Senates would be bound by that Senate. . . .Any Member of this body knows that the next Congress would not heed that law and would proceed to change it and would vote repeal of it by majority vote.”

Or:

“By what logic can the Senate of 1917 or 1949 or 1959 bind the Senate of [today]. . . .The immediate issue is whether a simple majority of the Senate is entitled to change Senate rules. . . .[I]t is clear that this question should be settled by a majority vote.”

Or simply:

“[Senate rules] could be changed by majority vote.”

The authorities: Senator Robert Byrd (D-WVA), the dean of Senate procedure and author of a magisterial history of the Senate on the Senate floor in 1979; Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D-MA) on the floor in 1975; and Senator Charles Schumer (D-NY) in colloquy with me before the Senate Judiciary Committee in 2003.[/i]

That rule stands in the way of deploying the nuclear option for the simple reason that its proponents are far from having the supermajority required by the meta-rule. Their solution? Equally simple: Knock the meta-rule aside either by ignoring it or by “redefining” its meaning by the same narrow majority that wants to take the action that the meta-rule says it can’t take absent a stronger majority ? here, confirming all of the Bush nominees to the federal bench by demanding an up-or-down vote. Cutting through the arcane language and the cumbersome procedural maneuvers involved in this revolutionary step, its vice is transparent. We teach our kids when they’re little that rules are made to be followed; that unjust or unwise rules can be challenged and ultimately changed; that the rules for challenging or changing them are especially important; and that those rules, at least while we’re playing the same game, can’t be broken but must be obeyed. What’s true even of a child’s game is doubly true in adult political life. Ripping up the rules for changing the rules is unacceptable if one believes in a rule-governed democracy. For a mere majority simply to plow ahead and have its way even when the rules in place haven’t been changed in accord with their own provision for change is to reduce rules to mere suggestions. And this means, in the particular case of judges, that any time the same political party is in control of the two political branches, even the thinnest congressional majority can see to it that the third branch is dedicated for decades to precisely the ideology that the two political branches at that moment represent.

Again, this is more of a complaint directed at the consequence of losing the last election. To the extent that the argument is meant to suggest that every newly composed Senate lacks the authority to set its own rules for proceeding, it is not supported by history or text.

One needn’t be a fan of the filibuster as a device for making the Senate proceed in slow motion and occasionally freeze in its tracks in order to recognize the enormity of the explosion that threshold step entails before one confirms even a single judge. It is precisely because the Majority Leader, Senator Frist, must likewise see how massive an explosion is involved that he and others offer the reassurance that their nuclear device will be exploded “only” for federal judicial appointments.

Senator Frist has chosen merely to address the unprecedented use of the filibuster against judicial nominees who have majority support in the Senate. The broader merits or demerits of the filibuster may be open to question beyond this - after all, many believe it was disgracefully deployed to deny civil rights for many years - but that is a matter for the Senate to decide as the occasion warrants.

It’s a strange “only,” given the lifetime character of the power being conferred on these judges and the far-reaching consequences of its exercise, and it’s a hollow “only” because there’s clearly no way to make good on a promise that this bomb will be exploded in no other setting and that the Senate will not transform itself into a legislative chamber that, like the House of Representatives, adopts a different rule for debating and passing each action it is about to consider. For the Constitution’s Advice and Consent Clause (Article II, Section 2, Clause 2) speaks in the same breath of the Senate’s role in confirming “Judges of the Supreme Court” and “all other Officers of the United States” covered by the Clause. And the provision empowering each chamber to “determine the Rules of its Proceedings” (Article I, Section 5, Clause 2) does not treat differently the power to promulgate or alter rules depending on the endpoint of the proceedings governed by those rules ? whether that endpoint is the confirmation or rejection of a nomination, the ratification or defeat of a treaty, the passage or defeat of a bill, the override of a presidential veto, or the promulgation of a constitutional amendment for consideration by the states. Although the Constitution itself sometimes specifies that a 2/3 majority is needed for one or another step, it leaves to each chamber of Congress the power to decide how to proceed, both when a 2/3 majority is ultimately needed (as with the ratification of treaties and the override of presidential vetoes) and when a mere majority will in the end suffice (as with confirming judges or other officers). And if the Senate may break the very rules it has made to regulate how it will proceed in any of these settings, then it may break the rules for all of them.

That the Constitution specifically calls for a super-majority in several specific instances, but not others, illustrates that there is nothing radical - nuclear or thermo-nuclear - about proceeding by majority determination elsewhere.

For all practical purposes, the pact that connects the current Senate with the Senate that sat in the First Congress ? and the pact that most significantly differentiates the Senate as a continuing body with staggered replacements and with fixed modes of proceeding, from the House as a new body every two years and with rules of proceeding fashioned ad hoc for every measure ? will have been broken once the power has been asserted to define the Senate’s rules anew whenever a majority is sufficiently determined to have its way and is willing to override its own rules to do so.

The filibuster emerged well after the founding, and quite by accident, when the standard means for calling the question were rather unthinkingly changed; the filibuster is no part of the intrinsic constitutional design.

Having played the game in violation of its own rules “just this once,” the Senate will have crossed an invisible but crucial line, making it difficult if not impossible to resist breaking the rules again whenever a majority of the Senators wish to do so, as a majority ? and someday a Democratic majority ? most assuredly will. The step proposed is one by which the Senate would have crossed the Rubicon and lost its virginity, and it is not the kind of loss that can be reversed or forgotten.

Whatever ultimate political price those Republican Senators who take that fateful step may pay, and whatever price might be exacted by a frustrated and confused electorate from those (mostly Democratic) Senators who retaliate by using the many formal and informal devices available for slowing the work of the Senate on all other business, all of us will undoubtedly have been made to pay a heavy price indeed. We will all have lost the great virtues of having an upper chamber in our national legislature that not only takes its “advice and consent” role seriously, but also believes in proceeding according to rules established in advance rather than making up and changing the rules as it goes along. It is because I so greatly lament that loss, and not because I fervently love the filibuster ? a device that I would be the first to concede has been deployed at least as often for ill as well as for good ? that I shudder at the thought of the thermonuclear step that is being proposed.

[i]The Senate should take its advice and consent role seriously; that is why the filibuster should not be used to deny the full chamber the opportunity to speak its mind upon these important nominations.

Professor Tribe and I agree wholeheartedly that the integrity and independence of the judiciary is vital to our constitutional success. Our constitutional assessments do differ over where and when it is appropriate for the courts to set aside the democratic choices of the people. This is a significant question; it is one that is recurring; it is one open to legitimate debate in the Senate - so have the debate in general, or each and every time a nominee is presented, but after a reasonable and responsible period, the debate should be concluded and a vote taken on individual nominees. An offer of public service by any man or woman deserves this courtesy. The constitutional instruction to the Senate is to give “advice and consent,” not to confuse and equivocate. [/i]

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
True, but I would expect that the way Congress votes WRT a presidential apointee would mirror the way the electoral college voted in George W. Bush. They are made up of the same respective populations that got them where they are–with a degree of uncertainty taken into account. I was merely offering it as a model to what should be a comfortable lead by the incumbant. Without becoming too quantitative I believe the electoral count was 51-49% Bush. I would expect the total congress vote to be roughly the same.[/quote]

If you are going to make some sort of argument, please quote the correct numbers.

From: CNN.com Election 2004 - U.S. President

George W. Bush 62,040,601. Kerry: 59,028,109. Nader 411, 304.

That would be: 51%, 48%, 1%

Oh, the electoral college vote wasn’t close.

Thanks!!!

JeffR

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
“Thank-you for telling us how we should interpret it.”

That will be five dollars.

“I guess you are much more intelligent than the rest of us.”

Yes, I am.

“I admit I don’t have a J.D. or whatever a three year law school degree is these days.”

The question is not whether you have a J.D., Mrs., B.S., it’s whether you can form a coherent argument.

“Who are you to decide what is a “fair” analysis for the rest of us?”

I am your lord.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
If you are going to make some sort of argument, please quote the correct numbers.

From: CNN.com Election 2004 - U.S. President

George W. Bush 62,040,601. Kerry: 59,028,109. Nader 411, 304.

That would be: 51%, 48%, 1%

Oh, the electoral college vote wasn’t close.

Thanks!!!

JeffR
[/quote]

Ummmm…that’s great but there is no margin of error listed on this page–and that is how one would determine “closeness”. Considering Nader didn’t win one electoral vote he couldn’t have won 1% of the electoral vote–this is popular vote only. My post was speaking directly to the similarities of the Electoral College and senate in their political make up. I bet the popular vote was still within one standard deviation of the results. PRETTY DAMN CLOSE! Even for something that is easily measurable.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
“Thank-you for telling us how we should interpret it.”

That will be five dollars.

“I guess you are much more intelligent than the rest of us.”

Yes, I am.

“I admit I don’t have a J.D. or whatever a three year law school degree is these days.”

The question is not whether you have a J.D., Mrs., B.S., it’s whether you can form a coherent argument.

“Who are you to decide what is a “fair” analysis for the rest of us?”

I am your lord.

JeffR

[/quote]

Well then I stand corrected. I didn’t realize taking someone else’s analysis and forming it into your own opinion with legal jargon and double speak was considered coherent. I’ll decide what I consider coherent.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

… The constitutional instruction to the Senate is to give “advice and consent,” not to confuse and equivocate. [/i]

[/quote]
I can cut and paste someone else’s words too. This last post totally changes my life–I now agree with you. Thanx.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ummmm…that’s great but there is no margin of error listed on this page–and that is how one would determine “closeness”. Considering Nader didn’t win one electoral vote he couldn’t have won 1% of the electoral vote–this is popular vote only. My post was speaking directly to the similarities of the Electoral College and senate in their political make up. I bet the popular vote was still within one standard deviation of the results. PRETTY DAMN CLOSE! Even for something that is easily measurable.
[/quote]

Why should Congressional activity mirror the outcome of the Presidential election? That makes no sense. It’s apples and oranges. Why not force the courts to make their decisions based on this as well?

How old are you?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Now, do you have a Constitutional analysis? Or do you have more opinions based on what you would like to see that are in no way related to the Constitution? Either way, I’m sure they will be amusing fodder for discussion.[/quote]

No, I don’t. I never did. And yes I read his opinion. I don’t care for some academic’s idea of truth. Please don’t bore me with any more. I want your opinion not someone else’s words. And then I want a reason–your own. Have you ever had an original opinion of your own not backed up by someone elses ideas or are you too afraid you might not know what it is with out someone telling you first?

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Why should Congressional activity mirror the outcome of the Presidential election? That makes no sense. It’s apples and oranges. Why not force the courts to make their decisions based on this as well?

How old are you?
[/quote]
Only because they are modeled after the same electorate. Not completely apples and oranges. And I think court rulings are usually a one-person decision (obviously not always true) and would usually reflect the ideologies of the person who put them there (or persons in the case of elected judges). I don’t think that congressional activity should necessarily reflect the outcome of presidential elections–it certainly is happening though. I am not surprised by it because it is something I would think possible–for the very reasons stated above–the votes would be indirectly coming from the electorate.

Please don?t make age an issue. My age is of no consequence?and certainly does not make me believe the way I do.