Fear Wins - Depressing

[quote]pat36 wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
pat36 wrote:

All these measures are nothing more than a dog and pony show. Do you really think the rest-a-cops at the airport are capable of thwarting a terrorist attack by a determined nut?

So tell me - what happens if a routine search that could have picked up on something sinister gets canned, and then a terrorist attack results from skipping the routine?

Then what? Then what kind of encroachment on your liberties will you see? Then what kind of a furor will we see, as many will say why didn’t we suffer this mild inconvenience in order to protect citizens?

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t - no thanks.

And, on some level, you are right - much of it is a show. But if they don’t do it, the ACLU will squeal and retard the process in whole.

Second, if we allow the encroachment on our rights, like allowing such crap as the patriot act, getting corn-holed at the airport, etc. then it is my opinion the terrorists already won. They succeeded in there goal of making us afraid. I say fuck’em, I am not afraid and see no reason for further monitoring of my behavior.

I don’t think the terrorists have alerady won because you have to take your belt and shoes off at the airport.

This fictional libertarian utopia doesn’t exist and never has. The practical reality is we trade off a little freedom for a hope in better protecting the nation.

If you don’t agree, no problem - but the trade-off stands: do we do a little now in order to head off the necessity of doing a lot more later?

I am not a terrorist, so they don’t need to monitor me, but it gives the government further control as if I behave in a way they don’t like, they will harass me despite the fact that said behavior wouldn’t be considered terroristic in nature.

I see your point, but do terrorists run around with a “Terrorist For Hire” t-shirt on? Terrorists want to appear to be just like you - they aren’t soldiers. They want to give off the impression that their behavior isn’t “terroristic in nature”.

Well, how do you combat that?

Third, the uselessness of shining a flashlight up the asshole of ordinary Americans is further accentuated by the fact that we have a wide-the fuck-ass-open border with Mexico. Why the fuck would a terrorist fly into the U.S. and get marked or corn-holed by a bunch of rent-a-cops when they can fly into mexico and walk across the border unabated.

I couldn’t agree more - the border(s) are one of our most problematic areas for security from terrorism.

And, don’t forget - terrorists aren’t interested in “flying” for the sake of transportation: they want to use the aircraft to murder hundreds or thousands. We aren’t just trying to keep terrorists from moving about - we also want to stop them from murdering scores of people at 35,000 feet.

If we are really that afraid that we are willing to be monitored and controlled then let’s just declare marshal law and get it over with, I mean really.

Luckily, we do we have people in place who don’t share your hyperbolic approach. You present a false choice. There isn’t a choice between a libertarian utopia and martial law - there are obviously many points in between.

But, perhaps unintentionally on your part, if we are too lax in trying to stop terrorists from striking, we may very well usher in the heightened “martial law” you fear the most. A little sacrifice now may prevent a larger sacrifice later - can you imagine what your liberties would look like if we give potential the free reign you suggest?

It’s been said many times before - the Constitution is not a suicide pact.

It remains amazing to me that so many “liberty lovers” remain so weak and feckless in defense of the liberty they claim to hold so dear.

My approach is a tad different. All the terrorist attacks through out the world have many common threads and that’s where efforts should be concentrated.

Many people scream its discrimination, but it’s really common sense. You want to monitor people, monitor those who pose the greatest threat. What do we know about terrorists? We know most of them are middle eastern, they are all muslims, they have some radical associations most likely obtained through a local mosque.

From there we can further drill down the tendencies that separate the talkers from those who participate in action. So here are some not so popular but more likely far more productive steps in thwarting terrorist attacks.

  1. Seal the fucking border with Mexico.
  2. Stop or severely limit access to the U.S. from the middle east.
  3. Target likely proponents of terror, rather that taking a crap shoot at the general population.
  4. Severely limit visa’s foreigners from the middle east.
  5. Seal the fucking border with Mexico.
  6. Continually work to get energy self sufficient so we can tell the middle east to go fuck itself.

It sucks for those middle easterners and muslims who have no bad intentions, but let’s get real. The problem comes from where they come from and their culture. It’s not from the Japanese, Germans, Russians, etc.

If we are going to survey and search, it should be concentrated on the most likely suspects and not the population at large. It may even force them to clean their own house. To separate those who came here for a better life from those who come here to enforce their radical philosophies through the blood of innocence.
[/quote]

Pat,

I wanted to sound you out. In particular, I wanted to see how important you think those issues you mentioned are.

From reading it, you sound pretty passionate about those areas.

I must ask you: What if the only politician who has the skills to set that list in motion is pro-choice?

Would you vote for said candidate?

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Pat,

I wanted to sound you out. In particular, I wanted to see how important you think those issues you mentioned are.

From reading it, you sound pretty passionate about those areas.

I must ask you: What if the only politician who has the skills to set that list in motion is pro-choice?

Would you vote for said candidate?

JeffR
[/quote]

Good question! While in individual encounters I take the “Golden Rule” approach to my ethical philosophy. In a sociological aspect I take a more Utilitarian approach and in that case, numbers matters. My contention that abortion is murder and the numbers are so high, that I could not vote for a pro-choice candidate who otherwise espoused my values. It this case it is a numbers game.

As long as there are over a million abortions a year in this country nothing will take precedant over that. If that number were say a thousand or even a couple of thousand, then my answer would likely change because it would no longer be a slaughter of epic proportions.

[quote]pat36 wrote:
My contention that abortion is murder and the numbers are so high, that I could not vote for a pro-choice candidate who otherwise espoused my values. It this case it is a numbers game.

As long as there are over a million abortions a year in this country nothing will take precedant over that. If that number were say a thousand or even a couple of thousand, then my answer would likely change because it would no longer be a slaughter of epic proportions.[/quote]

How about a million deaths per year (and 4.9 million world-wide) related to smoking?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/11/health/main525264.shtml

Does that merit your attention equally? Where is the outrage? Where is the political platform? Is this not a slaughter of epic proportions?

There are no deaths “realated” to abortion. Abortion in and of itself is the termination of life. There are no “second hand” abortion deaths.

Determining what is and is not a “smoking related death” is about as subjective as determining what a good steak should taste like.

But that was a hell of a straw man.

If I stop in the middle of the street to light a cigarette and get hit by a car, does that count as a smoking related death?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There are no deaths “realated” to abortion. Abortion in and of itself is the termination of life. There are no “second hand” abortion deaths.
[/quote]

Sure there are. If a woman dies of hemorrhage and infection after an inexpertly done, illegal abortion, then that is a secondhand abortion-related death.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
There are no deaths “realated” to abortion. Abortion in and of itself is the termination of life. There are no “second hand” abortion deaths.

Determining what is and is not a “smoking related death” is about as subjective as determining what a good steak should taste like.

But that was a hell of a straw man. [/quote]

I was simply trying to show how relative one persons “one million deaths” is, depending on how it comes about. One would assume that 1,000,000 deaths per year due to some external force is bad, regardless of how.

Both abortive deaths and smoking deaths are straw men. It’s interesting how one raises our ire more than the other. It’s this hypocrisy to which I was alluding.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I don’t think the terrorists have alerady won because you have to take your belt and shoes off at the airport.[/quote]

That’s because the vast majority of people have no idea what makes good security and are appeased by security theater.

Last time I was at an airport, I found it interesting that by the time I was searched, I had already spent almost an hour in line with a crowd of at least a few hundred people. All tightly packed in nice cordoned rows.

Had I been strapped with explosive, I could have mounted a very successful attack by targeting the waiting line instead of the airplane.

That’s one of the major problems we the way security policies are implemented now. We react to attacks after they’ve occurred; little appears to be done to prevent new modus operandi.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:
There are no deaths “realated” to abortion. Abortion in and of itself is the termination of life. There are no “second hand” abortion deaths.

Sure there are. If a woman dies of hemorrhage and infection after an inexpertly done, illegal abortion, then that is a secondhand abortion-related death.[/quote]

I disagree. She was the instigator of the procedure. Second hand suggests it affects innocent bystanders. The only innocent in an abortion is the baby.

But this is fodder for another thread.

[quote]kroby wrote:
I was simply trying to show how relative one persons “one million deaths” is, depending on how it comes about. One would assume that 1,000,000 deaths per year due to some external force is bad, regardless of how.[/quote]

You did a very poor job, then.

You brought up the smoking crap. The poster was asked if he would vote for a pro-death candidate if it meant that they were tough on securing our borders.

Your comments were needless.

[quote]pookie wrote:
That’s one of the major problems we the way security policies are implemented now. We react to attacks after they’ve occurred; little appears to be done to prevent new modus operandi.
[/quote]

This is the catch-22 any security measure finds itself in. It’s either too invasive, or too out of date. Can you imagine the bitching and moaning that would occur if they tried anything new, or cutting edge?

[quote]rainjack wrote:

This is the catch-22 any security measure finds itself in. It’s either too invasive, or too out of date. Can you imagine the bitching and moaning that would occur if they tried anything new, or cutting edge?[/quote]

Exactly, and could you imagine the reaction if you let the exact same thing happen in the exact same way by way of doing absolutely nothing different after the first incident?

I agree with you, Pookie - often security measures are reactive and behind the curve. But in some cases, we only have the luxury of the “it’s better than doing nothing” approach. In the case of the airport “patdown” - it isn’t perfect, but given what has happened, it’s better than doing nothing.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Last time I was at an airport, I found it interesting that by the time I was searched, I had already spent almost an hour in line with a crowd of at least a few hundred people. All tightly packed in nice cordoned rows.

Had I been strapped with explosive, I could have mounted a very successful attack by targeting the waiting line instead of the airplane. [/quote]

Here’s a better example illustrating that.

After the 2003 bombing attacks in Casablanca, access to the airport was restricted to people with passports and plane tickets. They installed all sorts of detectors at the entrance of the airport. People were kept out by a fence a dozen meter from the entrance and heavy police presence. Now here’s the kicker: people picking up their freshly arrived relatives and friends - or accompanying the ones supposed to fly out - were thus packed like sardines outside of the airport. A huge crowd of several hundreds at peak times. Somebody could have very easily blown the whole pack and killed a lot more people than if it had been a plane or inside the airport.

As you pointed out, nobody cared much about security. They cared about giving the world (and thus tourists) the impression that they were doing something.

[quote]lixy wrote:
As you pointed out, nobody cared much about security. They cared about giving the world (and thus tourists) the impression that they were doing something.[/quote]

Do you think someone is sitting in a room somewhere saying “Here’s a good way to make it look like we’re doing something!”? Whoever is making the decisions, however incompetent they may be, I tend to think they are the product of stupidity rather than willful indifference, malice, or political point-scoring.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Exactly, and could you imagine the reaction if you let the exact same thing happen in the exact same way by way of doing absolutely nothing different after the first incident? [/quote]

Face it, a plane flying over New York city could have been forced by jet fighters out of there. You can bet your ass that the scenario is not going to happen in the US ever again. There must be a lot more people controlling positions of planes, and a lot more military power ready to launch at the first sign of deviation.

The 9/11 hijackers had nothing but cutters in hand. Confiscating fish oil is not gonna stop a highly motivated group of terrorists from taking knives made out of composite onto the plane, now will it?

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Whoever is making the decisions, however incompetent they may be, I tend to think they are the product of stupidity rather than willful indifference, malice, or political point-scoring.[/quote]

This brilliant statement also belongs on the other thread, Neph, for here you have encapsulated the very “Nature of the State”.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Do you think someone is sitting in a room somewhere saying “Here’s a good way to make it look like we’re doing something!”? [/quote]

In the case of Morocco, yes. It’s evident when you roam the streets of Casablanca. They barricaded every road that leads to a consulate, embassy, or royal palace. Police presence is concentrated around those spots. Fences have been put around every hotel. Plus, they have policemen shouting at anyone who walks on the curb adjacent to those hotels.

So, yeah, I believe that they’re doing all this for the form. Too much is at stake here. First, they score points with the US when they appear to be fighting terrorism. Secondly, they give a certain sense of security to tourists which are a vital resource for the country.

[quote]lixy wrote:

Face it, a plane flying over New York city could have been forced by jet fighters out of there. You can bet your ass that the scenario is not going to happen in the US ever again. There must be a lot more people controlling positions of planes, and a lot more military power ready to launch at the first sign of deviation.

The 9/11 hijackers had nothing but cutters in hand. Confiscating fish oil is not gonna stop a highly motivated group of terrorists from taking knives made out of composite onto the plane, now will it?[/quote]

Lixy, do you ever get anything right?

No one belives that the planes-as-missile approach will succeed again. The point is to prevent a terrorist from murdering the passengers on the plane.

Moreover, no one is worried about terrorists taking sharp objects on a plane for the most part (thought that is still part of the sweep) - it is mostly about making sure nothing worse is being carried on to a plane, and that includes suspicious material along with harmful material.

Terrorists can’t hijack planes anymore - it wasn’t their knives that gave them control, it was hijacker protocol. No one will follow that protocol any longer, so if a few of the barbarians you sympathize with - you know, the anti-imperialists who slaughter through no fault of their own - decide they want to try and bully their way to the cockpit of a plane, they will get a dose of American multiculturalism and diversity, with a passenger from the New Jersey kneeing the terrorist in the belly, an Iowan farmboy putting the terrorist in a headlock, and a Southerner kicking his teeth in.

What we are most concerned with now is an event on the plane.

Thunder,

My cousin, not a big man by any means, was in a situation on a flight to Germany. A man sitting in front of him, his wife and small children became beligerent. Do not know if he was drunk or insane, but he stood up and started shouting obsenities. My cousin proceed to push the dude back on his seat and he and several other passengers held him until he settled down.

The plane was diverted to England and the dude was arrested on the ground.

I am willing to bet people won’t sit still for hijackings after 9-11 and the terrorists know it, thus their plan to assemble bombs on board…

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Thunder,

My cousin, not a big man by any means, was in a situation on a flight to Germany. A man sitting in front of him, his wife and small children became beligerent. Do not know if he was drunk or insane, but he stood up and started shouting obsenities. My cousin proceed to push the dude back on his seat and he and several other passengers held him until he settled down.

The plane was diverted to England and the dude was arrested on the ground.

I am willing to bet people won’t sit still for hijackings after 9-11 and the terrorists know it, thus their plan to assemble bombs on board…[/quote]

you’re right first sign of a hijacking and i bet half the plane is getting up to pummel these idiots, I think we are awake now and that won’thappen anymore without a serious fight on board.