Fear Wins - Depressing

[quote]gendou57 wrote:
lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Perhaps the majority should ask themselves, “What if it was you?”

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” – Thomas Jefferson

Too predictable? Oh well…

I think you mean Benjamin Franklin.

-Gendou[/quote]

The quote is: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

And it might not have even been Franklin who originated it, but Richard Jackson, another diplomat. A similar proverb is in Poor Richard’s Almanack: “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.”

Whoever said it first, it is as true today as it was in 1759.

Surveillance cameras will not protect our essential liberty, they will only give us the illusion of temporary safety. And in the end we have neither.

[quote]JeffR wrote:

I can’t get the image of atta walking through the terminal out of my mind.

What if another camera had caught him doing incriminating things.

Could we have stopped it?
[/quote]

Jeff, do you imagine that Mohammed Atta was, in fact, doing any incriminating things at the terminal that, had there been surveillance cameras in place, would have triggered a security team to arrest him before he could get on the plane?

I think of the number of successfully-committed crimes caught on security cameras, and wonder how even more of them can be any more effective in preventing crime, let alone terrorist attack.

If I were a terrorist, and was planning a suicide bombing, I would not be deterred by the presence of cameras everywhere, because I would know that the images captured by them are likely being monitored by bored, low-paid, poorly trained Homeland Security personnel who would not have the authority to call out a SWAT team to stop me anyway, even assuming I were stupid enough to look and act like a terrorist in front of the camera before detonating my exploding Xvest.

I might even be encouraged by the thought of my deed being captured for posterity by numerous cameras. It would save my colleagues the trouble of claiming credit for the attack, and besides, if you’re going to be a martyr, you might as well be a well-televised and publicized one.

Aren’t the cameras more effective at piecing together what happened after the fact?

Look at the UK.

When the latest events happened cameras were used to attach people to those events. It’s not like criminals are generally trying to act suspicious. It’s also not like there are scores of people watching every camera on the planet simultaneously. Let’s get serious.

Good grief, some of you are so terrified it is silly. Heck, I’m not even against cameras in PUBLIC places, especially if they are gathering information to be used after the fact. Your liberties aren’t infringed just because people can observe what you are doing in public.

Oh, by the way, stating that crime went up with the camera systems can be disingenous. It is often the case that effective new programs will highlight or catch crimes that would previously have gone undetected… or at least uncounted.

In other news…

“In New York, the city is proposing new rules to require many photographers and camera operators to obtain permits before taking photos or shooting video in the city. Under the proposal, any group of two or more people using a handheld camera in one location for more than thirty minutes would be required to have a permit and $1 million in insurance. In addition small groups using a single tripod for more than ten minutes would be forced to obtain a permit and insurance.”

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/30/1416248

Who’s with the man on this double standard? JeffR, are those sneaky terrorists going to hide death ray machines in cameras?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
JeffR wrote:

I can’t get the image of atta walking through the terminal out of my mind.

What if another camera had caught him doing incriminating things.

Could we have stopped it?

Jeff, do you imagine that Mohammed Atta was, in fact, doing any incriminating things at the terminal that, had there been surveillance cameras in place, would have triggered a security team to arrest him before he could get on the plane?

I think of the number of successfully-committed crimes caught on security cameras, and wonder how even more of them can be any more effective in preventing crime, let alone terrorist attack.

If I were a terrorist, and was planning a suicide bombing, I would not be deterred by the presence of cameras everywhere, because I would know that the images captured by them are likely being monitored by bored, low-paid, poorly trained Homeland Security personnel who would not have the authority to call out a SWAT team to stop me anyway, even assuming I were stupid enough to look and act like a terrorist in front of the camera before detonating my exploding Xvest.

I might even be encouraged by the thought of my deed being captured for posterity by numerous cameras. It would save my colleagues the trouble of claiming credit for the attack, and besides, if you’re going to be a martyr, you might as well be a well-televised and publicized one.[/quote]

V,

I can’t speak for the mindset of a terrorist.

However, I can assure you that there are fewer “bored” observers behind cameras than there used to be.

Further, who wants to be the guy who let atta through?

It is all about diligence. Connecting the dots. You cannot connect dots that you cannot see.

Let’s not get carried away. This is not going to solve every crime.

However, if it stops ONE (especially a large one), I’d be very interested.

We can spin out as many hypothetical scenarios as you want.

For instance, the Chief watches guys from known terrorist states buying strange objects after spending the day with other guys from said regime at flight school.

Or, Chief is able to watch entrances to sensitive buildings and observe guys casing the entrance.

If you think that all criminals are sophisticated or discrete, you are very wrong.

Certain behaviors raise flags. There are all sorts of hints.

However, you have to see them to be alerted.

JeffR

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
gendou57 wrote:
lixy wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Perhaps the majority should ask themselves, “What if it was you?”

“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.” – Thomas Jefferson

Too predictable? Oh well…

I think you mean Benjamin Franklin.

-Gendou

The quote is: “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”

And it might not have even been Franklin who originated it, but Richard Jackson, another diplomat. A similar proverb is in Poor Richard’s Almanack: “Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power.”

Whoever said it first, it is as true today as it was in 1759.

Surveillance cameras will not protect our essential liberty, they will only give us the illusion of temporary safety. And in the end we have neither.
[/quote]

See above.

You happened to be the next JACKASS.

Congratulations.

JeffR

[quote]lixy wrote:
In other news…

“In New York, the city is proposing new rules to require many photographers and camera operators to obtain permits before taking photos or shooting video in the city. Under the proposal, any group of two or more people using a handheld camera in one location for more than thirty minutes would be required to have a permit and $1 million in insurance. In addition small groups using a single tripod for more than ten minutes would be forced to obtain a permit and insurance.”

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/30/1416248

Who’s with the man on this double standard? JeffR, are those sneaky terrorists going to hide death ray machines in cameras?[/quote]

lixy,

I’d enjoy (too strong a word). I’d tolerate you much better if you’d admit where in the U.S. you currently reside.

I’m guessing Chicago.

You’ve given away many clues. The first (for me) was your description of Stockholm. You seem to have some of the distances incorrect.

I’m thinking you are here on a guest visa. I’d put that at about a 65% chance. I do think you are probably studying at a University. However, you could also be just another disgruntled guy who gets off on “fooling” others.

I’d say you are between 30-35 years of age. Probably unmarried. I’m guessing you are in the 5-8 to 5-9 height range. Probably about 160 pounds.

I’d say it’s 80/20 that you are Muslim.

I know you’ll never admit how close I am. However, it would be interesting to see your expression.

As far as New York, God only knows what they are up to these days.

It really doesn’t add much to the discussion at hand.

If it passes, we’ll talk about it.

JeffR

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Let’s not get carried away. This is not going to solve every crime.

However, if it stops ONE (especially a large one), I’d be very interested. [/quote]

If it triggers ONE false positive (especially one where life is lost), I’d consider it a broken and intrusive system. And based on the case mentioned earlier of De Menezes, the disadvantages clearly outweigh any benefits.

You may wanna apply that “what if it happened to me” principle and put yourself in the guy’s shoes. Chances of the police abusing the system are evidently greater than chances of terrorist attack of the scale of 9/11 ever happening.

For all the bashing I do of CCTVs, I have to point out that Sweden is filled with cameras. Thankfully, there’s no “patriot act” equivalent around here, so no chance of abuse. Plus, the police is so nice, you end up making friends with them. Really, I’ve never seen cops so dedicated to helping society (as opposed to oppressing people).

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Jeff, do you imagine that Mohammed Atta was, in fact, doing any incriminating things at the terminal that, had there been surveillance cameras in place, would have triggered a security team to arrest him before he could get on the plane?
[/quote]

They actually did have video of some of the terrorists in the terminals, Mohammad Atta included. It did nothing but identify him after the fact.

But on a similar unrelated note, how about the video surveillance from LA showing a homeless person being killed by a thug with a baseball bat? Anyone see that? The video may be useful to bring that animal to justice.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
See above.

You happened to be the next JACKASS.

Congratulations.

JeffR
[/quote]

Yeah, I saw that post of yours as soon as I had posted mine, and had a good laugh about it.

Congratulations gratefully accepted.

Okay, if you don’t like that quote, then here’s another one of Ben’s, which may be more pertinent: “Laws like to Cobwebs catch small Flies, Great ones break thro’ before your eyes.”

Substitute the word “surveillance” for “Laws.”

Surely the idiots like Richard Reid will be nabbed by sharp-eyed and quick-thinking police and security personnel, but they aren’t the ones who will execute the really serious attacks.

Those will be more careful, more sophisticated, and likely better at masking their intentions.

In short, I believe there is little the government of any democratic republic or liberal democracy can do to prevent a truly dedicated attacker from carrying out his mission, if it wishes to remain a liberal democracy or democratic republic. It can only emplace countermeasures (or half-measures, as the case may be), which only force the attacker to be more cunning. About the only way for the American government to eradicate the terrorist problem is to enact an updated Lex Gabinia, with the president becoming a Pompey. No mercy, no ambivalence, no apology.

Within five years, the terrorists would be gone. But then, of course, so would America.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’d enjoy (too strong a word). I’d tolerate you much better if you’d admit where in the U.S. you currently reside.

I’m guessing Chicago.

You’ve given away many clues. The first (for me) was your description of Stockholm. You seem to have some of the distances incorrect.

I’m thinking you are here on a guest visa. I’d put that at about a 65% chance. I do think you are probably studying at a University. However, you could also be just another disgruntled guy who gets off on “fooling” others.

I’d say you are between 30-35 years of age. Probably unmarried. I’m guessing you are in the 5-8 to 5-9 height range. Probably about 160 pounds.

I’d say it’s 80/20 that you are Muslim.

I know you’ll never admit how close I am. However, it would be interesting to see your expression. [/quote]

Awww…again with this crap?

I’m in a little town about a hundred miles south of Stockholm called Norrkoping (the 2nd O with diaeresis). I have spent little time in the capital. Mostly weekends spent visiting its numerous museums. I’m 27, Unmarried (and not in a hurry), 1.87ms (that’s over 6 feet), 86 Kgs (around 190lbs) and Muslim. I really don’t see how this is of any relevance though. PM next time you wanna discuss futilities.

Any particular reason that would make you believe I’m in the US? And why would a sane person adventure stats on a person’s physique based on his/her posts on the web? Got a crystal ball or something? I’m puzzled.

[quote]As far as New York, God only knows what they are up to these days.

It really doesn’t add much to the discussion at hand. [/quote]

Like hell it does! I asked you a direct question. What do you think about the proposal? The spread of CCTVs and limitations put on public freedoms go hand in hand. They all lead to a totalitarian state which you seem to be defending.

If one is OK with CCTV cameras to fight crime, surely having even more videos from other angles should be encouraged. The only reason a state would wanna ban the public from using cameras is so that they can (the police&co) gets away with abuse.

For fuck’s sake, if it passes it’ll be too late. We’ll end up discussing it like we discuss the Iraq war (i.e: as a fait accompli). Everybody knows now that the war was a mistake. The only standing argument I’m hearing lately is “we’re already there, we might as well make the best of it”.

What can you do once the proposal passes? Take the streets in acts of civil disobedience? That ain’t gonna help anymore than camp Casey or the countless marches and sit-ins helped stopped the Iraq war. Imagine however if those same resources were dedicated to protesting the war before it started. They could have radically changed the course of events and convinced Americans that going to war was not a necessity.

It’s a well know principle often condensed in the following sentence: prevention is better than cure.

My last post makes it sound like the only alternatives of action in the face of terrorism are either capitulation or tyranny. I do not believe this at all.

Rather, I believe that the solution to the problem of terrorism lies not in the hands of the American government, but in the hands of the American people.

What I would be happy to see (so happy in fact that I might even move back to my beloved homeland), is for every federal law to be stricken from the books which violates the eighth, sixth, fifth, fourth, and second amendments.

In addition, I would like to see the second amendment utilized in such a way as to actually create a “well-regulated militia,” that is to say a well-armed, well trained civilian population who is equipped physically, mentally and legally to fight terrorism within the borders of the United States wherever it may occur.

There would be no need to “arm the populace:” the populace is already armed. Simply make it possible for every adult citizen of good moral character and good standing within his or her community to obtain the training necessary to identify and intercept a terrorist or criminal before the latter is able to commit an act of terror or crime. The cost would be a fraction of what it costs to train and maintain an army to mop up other people’s messes (and our own) a half a world away.

Beyond cost-effectiveness, however, it makes strategic sense. The aim of terrorism is to destabilize a society by instilling terror (hence the name) in the general population, who then begs protection from the government, which inevitably overreacts and becomes progressively heavy-handed.

The target of terrorism is the government, but its victims are civilians. Forge a citizenry incapable of being terrorized (a nation of Todd Beamers, if you will), and by definition you end terrorism.

Here I will concede the floor to the late Col. Jeff Cooper, who says practically the same thing more eloquently than I am capable. For those of you who are unfamiliar with Jeff Cooper, this is the man who invented the modern technique of firearm handling, who was throughout his life an outspoken champion of personal liberty AND personal responsibility (the one being impossible without the other). In this piece, he uses our Jeff’s hated Ben Franklin quote, so I am proud to say that, like me, he is a jackass as well.

[center]* * * * *[/center]

[i]"We have the problem [of terrorism]; never mind why. What shall we do about it? In a socialist atmosphere, the immediate response is to hand the problem to the state. Pass a law! Any law. Just so you can say that something has been done. And above all, spend money. We have come to assume that the more money we spend on a problem, the quicker it will go away.

Now it is quite true that the state can indeed abolish extortion, terrorism, and crime. History offers many examples of nations in which none of these things existed. We can start with Senacherib of Assyria and browse on up to Porfirio Diaz of Mexico. An iron fist will do it. That’s the state’s simple and effective answer to disorderly conduct. If you want it arranged so that the state will protect you, you can do so. What you give up in return is your liberty.

No deal.

The man to protect you is you. Not the state, not the agent of the state, and not your hired hand–YOU!

How often is our intelligence insulted by the fatuous claim that we should rely on the police for our physical security! I cannot believe that the people who advance this idea believe it themselves. The police do indeed abort a certain amount of violent crime by their coincidental presence on the scene, and that’s fine. But to tell us that all we have to do is call a cop when confronted by a troll is to talk like a fool–and those who tell us this know it.

One bleeding-heart type asked me in a recent interview if I did not agree that “violence begets violence.” I told him that it is my earnest endeavor to see that it does. I would like very much to ensure–and in some cases I have–that any man who offers violence to his fellow citizen begets a whole lot more in return than he can enjoy.

The obvious way to eradicate crime is to eradicate criminals, but neither the lawgivers nor the constabulary seem inclined to do this. The man who elects to prey upon society deserves no consideration from society. If he survives his act of violence, he rates a fair trial–but only to be sure that there has been no mistake about his identity. If he is killed in the act, there can be little doubt about whose act it was.

But we don’t want a “Porfiriato,” in which the police simply shoot all suspects out of hand. Such a regime may indeed have a certain austere appeal in today’s climate of urban chaos, but to trade one’s liberty for security is to sell one’s soul to the devil, as Ben Franklin noted [/i][jackass!][i]. And, to quote James Burnham, it is both our lives and our liberties that are at stake.

Laws are not the answer. We have laws against murder. We have laws against kidnapping. We have laws against extortion. And murder, kidnapping, and extortion are on the rise. The answer, it seems to me, is wrath. Let the thug take his chances with an alert, prepared, and angry citizenry. It may very well spoil his whole career.

This is not a call for vigilantism: It is a call for self-reliance. For those who feel short on self-reliance, I have a suggestion. Take up practical pistol shooting as a recreation. It is a good game. It is fun. It is “relevant.” And it does wonders for your self-reliance.

Your best protector is–as it always has been–you! [/i]

[quote]lixy wrote:
Plus, the police is so nice, you end up making friends with them. Really, I’ve never seen cops so dedicated to helping society (as opposed to oppressing people).[/quote]

That’s the way it is here in Japan. The police are just regular folks who happen to wear uniforms and carry pistols, which 99.9 percent of the time have no reason to come out of the holsters.

In fact, individual officers are regularly transferred across the country to prevent them from getting too friendly with the local population, which might compromise the impartiality a police officer needs to be an effective peacekeeper.

A surprising number of jackasses serve in the US military.

Well, I think the highlight of my day was being called a “jackass” by JeffR.

Browsing the Army Special Forces field manual 31-27 (Pack Animals in Support of Special Operations), I found a rather complimentary appraisal.

The jackass, say the Green Berets, is a strong, calm, intelligent worker with a natural inclination to like people, He does not flee in terror after being spooked, but he has a strong survival instinct, which is often mistaken for stubbornness: he is not stubborn, but simply smart enough not to blindly obey a command that will put him in undue jeopardy.

That’s me in a nutshell!

Thank you, Jeff.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
JeffR wrote:
See above.

You happened to be the next JACKASS.

Congratulations.

JeffR

Yeah, I saw that post of yours as soon as I had posted mine, and had a good laugh about it.

Congratulations gratefully accepted.

Okay, if you don’t like that quote, then here’s another one of Ben’s, which may be more pertinent: “Laws like to Cobwebs catch small Flies, Great ones break thro’ before your eyes.”

Substitute the word “surveillance” for “Laws.”

Surely the idiots like Richard Reid will be nabbed by sharp-eyed and quick-thinking police and security personnel, but they aren’t the ones who will execute the really serious attacks.

Those will be more careful, more sophisticated, and likely better at masking their intentions.

In short, I believe there is little the government of any democratic republic or liberal democracy can do to prevent a truly dedicated attacker from carrying out his mission, if it wishes to remain a liberal democracy or democratic republic. [/quote]

That’s the crux of the issue right there. We can do far more harm to ourselves in overreacting to terrorism than the terrorists can ever do to us, Manhattan mushroom cloud fantasies included.

And one cheap political observation:

“Through a political lens, support for increased use of surveillance systems is highest of all, 86 percent, among Republicans who support Rudy Giuliani, who made his name as New York City’s crime-fighting mayor.”

[quote]lixy wrote:
In other news…

“In New York, the city is proposing new rules to require many photographers and camera operators to obtain permits before taking photos or shooting video in the city. Under the proposal, any group of two or more people using a handheld camera in one location for more than thirty minutes would be required to have a permit and $1 million in insurance. In addition small groups using a single tripod for more than ten minutes would be forced to obtain a permit and insurance.”

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/07/30/1416248

Who’s with the man on this double standard? JeffR, are those sneaky terrorists going to hide death ray machines in cameras?[/quote]

This is because people are causing disruptions by filming reality TV and other nonsense.

The city wants to get a cut and have some control so it does not interrupt traffic and everyone elses lives.

Most municipalities have always required permits when filming for commercial purposes and with changing technology and entertainment tastes they are merely revising the laws.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:

That’s the crux of the issue right there. We can do far more harm to ourselves in overreacting to terrorism than the terrorists can ever do to us, Manhattan mushroom cloud fantasies included.[/quote]

It is because you see it as a fantasy. I think the possibility exists.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
I’d be against this if the United States wasn’t at war with a secretive enemy who thrives on our divisions.

I’m going to start my own poll. It will only include people who’ve had family members killed on 9/11 or on the U.S.S. Cole.

Anyone want to bet that nearly 100% would approve of this measure?

I suspect that people’s view would be drastically different had their sister/brother/mother/father/son/daughter etc… been killed in these attacks.

JeffR[/quote]

Oh I am 150% against this measure. If you want to fuck something up, throw government at it. Cameras monitored by the government means that we are no long allowed to behave in a non-government approved way. If we do something that is percieved incorrectly we can be the victims here.

It matters little that what the intentions are. Stop crime reduce terror, it does not matter. In the end it will be used improperly. It is practically enivitable.

Besides, what the fuck do all our security measures matter if we have a wide-the-fuck-ass open border to our south. Guess which way I’d come in if I were a terrorist.