Fear Wins - Depressing

[pookie]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Look - if you guys don’t like it I jump on vroom - just fucking say so. Is it a new sign of intelligence to avoid coming out and saying what you really think?[/quote]

I’ve got no problems with you doing whatever you want with vroom. But if you’re going to attack him personally, do it in PMs. If you wanna bash his arguments, then that’s perfectly fine. If no one can figure out what they are, and he blows off requests for clarifications, just ignore him or, again, continue thru PMs.

The idea should be to not try and destroy the thread just to tell vroom you think he’s an idiot.

[quote]Good thing I’m not smart enough to get Mensa Monthly.

Since when is it a sign of fear to be so sick and fucking tired of a person’s repeated posting style? [/quote]

Who said that? I was simply wondering why lately most thread seems to quickly devolve into personal attacks. Any points made by either side are simply ignored and dismissed and the discussions turn into personal flame wars no matter the initial topic.

Pookie - you haven’t carried on an honest debate wince you have been posting down here. You are usually too busy trying to be a smart ass.

Fair enough. I did mention that I miss the good debates that we used to have around here. At some point, though, it gets to be frustrating to spend time explaining your opinions in a thread simply to see it turn into a shitfest 2 or 3 posts later.

Not that there is a problem with that - but you acting as if you are the solution rather than part of the problem just smells funny.

Well, I don’t recall trading boring personal insults with someone for 3 or 4 pages, but maybe I’m having selective memory loss.

All that aside: Why is it all of a sudden you guys give a shit?

This site used to be fun. Now, not so much.

Sounds to me like the pot has needed stirring for quite some time, and no one wanted to undertake the task.

Empty pots should not require that much attention.

Maybe from now on people will actually have to have some proof of their position, and not a quote of the day to make them feel better about what they say.

If someone is unable to provide clarifications when prompted, I think it’s clear enough for anyone following the discussion that the person’s viewpoint was poorly thought out in the first place.

Belaboring the point for days is unnecessary and, frankly, pretty boring.

[pookie]

[quote]JeffR wrote:
After pookie’s incredibly insensitive and insulting remarks about dirty bombs “It’s no big deal. Just take some iodine pills”[/quote]

Apart from the fact that I never said what you quoted, you never came around to answering how “tons of nuclear material” in Iraq suddenly became 50kg, nor how one could possibly make “a variety of nuclear weaponry” from it.

You ran away from answering that 3 times already.

I’m betting you weasel out again and avoid answering it here too.

You a betting man, Jeffro?

[rainjack]

[quote]pookie wrote:
a bunch of stuff that wasn’t half bad
[/quote]

Wow. Just…wow.

I don’t think the pot is empty, just crusted over with the same folks being allowed to bastardize an otherwise decent fight.

And I think that is where you and I see it differently. I see fight. You see debate. This is an internet forum, not a university think-tank. Debates are not to be had around here. They haven’t since I have been here. They are fights.

I know your stances on most things, and I can separate your self-indulgent smart-assery from what you say on most days. I would say that one would have to be almost brain dead not to see my usually polar opposite stance to yours.

How does your sarcasm, my sarcasm, others’ sarcasm denigrate the forums? It is when one comes to these “debates” without a stance, without a clear reason for being here, and yet feels the need to call attention to himself, or tell others how stupid they are.

My fighting with vroom in the threads is the e-version of me telling him to get out of the fucking way.

[vroom]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
And I think that is where you and I see it differently. I see fight. You see debate. This is an internet forum, not a university think-tank. Debates are not to be had around here. They haven’t since I have been here. They are fights.[/quote]

Debates are not to be had around here?

Anyhow, thanks for the admission. While I know your style in the forums and your opinions on debate, I’m not sure anyone else did.

My fighting with vroom in the threads is the e-version of me telling him to get out of the fucking way.

After this many years, do you really think it’s productive?

[pookie]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I don’t think the pot is empty, just crusted over with the same folks being allowed to bastardize an otherwise decent fight.

And I think that is where you and I see it differently. I see fight. You see debate. This is an internet forum, not a university think-tank. Debates are not to be had around here. They haven’t since I have been here. They are fights. [/quote]

Wouldn’t you get better fights by putting on gloves and stepping into a ring?

You can have debates outside an university setting. In fact, what is interesting on the internet is that you can get young and old, local and foreign, informed and less so, etc. to participate.

Personally, I find it more interesting to consider different ideas and to criticize or comment on them, rather than to simply defend my own to the death.

I know your stances on most things, and I can separate your self-indulgent smart-assery from what you say on most days. I would say that one would have to be almost brain dead not to see my usually polar opposite stance to yours.

Well yes, and that’s where the interest springs from. Don’t you ever wonder about the reasoning behind someone’s arriving at a completely different conclusion while basically having access to the same facts? It’s often a question of personal values, but it also happens that we learn something new.

I’ve never learned much from fights, especially internet ones.

How does your sarcasm, my sarcasm, others’ sarcasm denigrate the forums? It is when one comes to these “debates” without a stance, without a clear reason for being here, and yet feels the need to call attention to himself, or tell others how stupid they are.

So? If someone is unable or unwilling to explain his stance, his opinion is immediately diminished in importance. While a few sarcastic comments might be appropriate, there should be a point where the time and energy of the members goes to participating in actual discussions.

Threads that go something like “I think [this] about [that]” and then are simply repeated variations on “Fuck you, you’re an idiot” to anyone who disagrees doesn’t strike me as particularly worthy of attention.

My fighting with vroom in the threads is the e-version of me telling him to get out of the fucking way.

Wouldn’t PMs do just as well? Why the need for an audience?

[pookie]

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I agree with you, Pookie - often security measures are reactive and behind the curve. But in some cases, we only have the luxury of the “it’s better than doing nothing” approach. In the case of the airport “patdown” - it isn’t perfect, but given what has happened, it’s better than doing nothing.[/quote]

What has me worried about this is that the authorities might favor implementing policies that are good theater instead of those which might be more efficient, but are completely invisible to the general public.

If the public expects the various agencies to “look busy,” it’s a pretty sure bet that that’s what they’ll concentrate on. Appearance of security doesn’t make anyone much safer, worse, it wastes limited resources and a lot of people’s time.

[ALDurr]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
My fighting with vroom in the threads is the e-version of me telling him to get out of the fucking way.[/quote]

[quote]pookie wrote:
Wouldn’t PMs do just as well? Why the need for an audience?
[/quote]

HEY! Stop trying to ruin our fun!

[Varqanir]

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wow - the 2 smart guys show up for more tsking.

Look - if you guys don’t like it I jump on vroom - just fucking say so. Is it a new sign of intelligence to avoid coming out and saying what you really think?
[/quote]

I had written out a long response to your post last night, Rainjack, then saw that Pookie had already said much of what I had written. So I’ll go at it from a different tack.

I didn’t mean to sound like I was singling you out. In fact, I was pissed off just as much at Vroom and Jeff, and to a somewhat lesser extent at Lixy and Thunderbolt, for allowing the thread to slide down to the level of a junior high school catfight.

By all means, you and Vroom can jump all over each other if that makes you happy. Just realize that it’s a show that we’ve all seen before, and the routine is getting just a bit stale.[quote]

I wrote:
What else I have noticed is that, while perhaps not engaging in a pure ad hominem attack, many of the regulars will attack the arguments of other posters whom they dislike, with a vehemence and spite that I suspect would not be employed if the very same argument came from someone else.

Rainjack wrote: Absolutely correct. Why? You’d think after 4 fucking years, someone would learn. But they don’t. In fact they take it up a notch.

All that aside: Why is it all of a sudden you guys give a shit?
[/quote]

Again, RJ, this is not just about you and Vroom. People have done the same thing with Headhunter and Jeff and Steve0, attacking with an extra helping of venom just because it’s their threads or their comments. Others seek out threads by Just the Facts, Jlesk, Wreckless and Nominal Prospect just for the perverse pleasure of hurling insults.

These days it’s Lixy. If one wanted to create an internet personality guaranteed to incite the scorn and wrath of American conservatives, I don’t think you could do much better than a European-educated, Muslim Arab liberal who is anti-Iraq war, anti-American imperialism, anti-Zionism, and pro-Palestine. He has a lot to say, some of it inflammatory, but he’s not stupid, and it pisses me off that even his legitimate opinions and comments get pissed on because of who he is and how he is perceived.

I don’t agree with everything Lixy says, just as I don’t agree with Vroom, Jeff, Thunder, Neph, Irish, Headhunter and you, Rainjack, all the time. Or even Pookie.

But that’s the great thing about this forum. All of you have strong opinions, and are informed and passionate about the issues under discussion, for the most part. These threads make me think about things in different ways, and I find myself better informed having participated in them.

So when a thread that I had been enjoying turns into a shouting match, and people I respect start tossing cheap insults and bickering at each other like old women, you’re damn right I give a shit about it. I feel cheated. I’ve just bit my tongue about it until now.

It’s a selfish complaint, perhaps, but there it is.

[ALDurr]

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Wow - the 2 smart guys show up for more tsking.

Look - if you guys don’t like it I jump on vroom - just fucking say so. Is it a new sign of intelligence to avoid coming out and saying what you really think?

I had written out a long response to your post last night, Rainjack, then saw that Pookie had already said much of what I had written. So I’ll go at it from a different tack.

I didn’t mean to sound like I was singling you out. In fact, I was pissed off just as much at Vroom and Jeff, and to a somewhat lesser extent at Lixy and Thunderbolt, for allowing the thread to slide down to the level of a junior high school catfight.

By all means, you and Vroom can jump all over each other if that makes you happy. Just realize that it’s a show that we’ve all seen before, and the routine is getting just a bit stale.

I wrote:
What else I have noticed is that, while perhaps not engaging in a pure ad hominem attack, many of the regulars will attack the arguments of other posters whom they dislike, with a vehemence and spite that I suspect would not be employed if the very same argument came from someone else.

Rainjack wrote: Absolutely correct. Why? You’d think after 4 fucking years, someone would learn. But they don’t. In fact they take it up a notch.

All that aside: Why is it all of a sudden you guys give a shit?

Again, RJ, this is not just about you and Vroom. People have done the same thing with Headhunter and Jeff and Steve0, attacking with an extra helping of venom just because it’s their threads or their comments. Others seek out threads by Just the Facts, Jlesk, Wreckless and Nominal Prospect just for the perverse pleasure of hurling insults.

These days it’s Lixy. If one wanted to create an internet personality guaranteed to incite the scorn and wrath of American conservatives, I don’t think you could do much better than a European-educated, Muslim Arab liberal who is anti-Iraq war, anti-American imperialism, anti-Zionism, and pro-Palestine. He has a lot to say, some of it inflammatory, but he’s not stupid, and it pisses me off that even his legitimate opinions and comments get pissed on because of who he is and how he is perceived.

I don’t agree with everything Lixy says, just as I don’t agree with Vroom, Jeff, Thunder, Neph, Irish, Headhunter and you, Rainjack, all the time. Or even Pookie.

But that’s the great thing about this forum. All of you have strong opinions, and are informed and passionate about the issues under discussion, for the most part. These threads make me think about things in different ways, and I find myself better informed having participated in them.

So when a thread that I had been enjoying turns into a shouting match, and people I respect start tossing cheap insults and bickering at each other like old women, you’re damn right I give a shit about it. I feel cheated. I’ve just bit my tongue about it until now.

It’s a selfish complaint, perhaps, but there it is.[/quote]

As usual, well said. Although, if I am bored, I do sometimes like seeing the level of creativity of some of the insults. I do agree, however, with most of what you said because there are many times that the different viewpoints do cause me to view things from different perspectives as well and allow me to appreciate the diversity of passionate thought on here.