Failing a Generation of American Boys...

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
As Orion likes to point out, her sexual market value isn’t what it used to be. SO - What advice do you give your young daughter?

[/quote]

See, that is not quite true.

Whithout wanting to be bothering you with statistics too much, men are left when the womens SMP is high, not the other way around.

Be that as it may, there is an article, about some 20 something PUAs, who talk to a 70 year old guy.

He tells them to pump and dump em sluts but to not disrespect his wife because she has the lines about her eyes because she laughed with him.

Her hands that might look haggard to any other men are beautiful to him because they caressed his children, her somewhat wrinkled lips where the first lips that kissed his children, her less than perfect breasts nourished his children, and that is what he sees.

However, if that is not what a woman wants to be, hell yes, I will not have any romantic lense that she has rejected, I will see her for what she fucking is, a depreciating asset.

Problem?

[/quote]

I had to look up PUA. :slight_smile: I don’t know how to address this without creating even more of a threadjack. Sorry, OP.

Orion, I appreciate the story of the older man who still loves his wife. Nice. I will deffer to your expertise on PUAs and such.

42

I seem to kill any thread I respond to in this forum. :slight_smile:

This one has been dead for awhile, but it got me thinking…

Do any of you see a similar problem in the way we are raising girls? The topic of this thread is about “failing a generation of American boys…” Do you think we are also failing our girls? If so, how?

I’m not sure how to word this, but I see a “coarsening of women” in our culture that saddens me. I wonder if it is just an effect of too many negative role models on television, or if there are other factors at work in the structure of the American family.

EDIT
To be more clear, I’d define “coarsening” as less cordial, less polite, more shrill, less ladylike, less soft and nurturing, more crass or profane, less refined in terms of basic civility and manners, - Do you see it as a gendered problem, or do you think it’s happening to both genders? Maybe it just seems more appalling in young women, because we traditionally expect them to be more gentle, or refined than the boys?

43

I think it is both genders, boys are becoming softer while girls are becoming harder. Not sure what to do about it or anything on girls end, but if boys were able to do stuff boys have been doing for the last thousand years as a youngster- fighting and playing with other boys and working with men, I think it would make a difference. Any sort of behavior that suggests that want today is put down or medicated… I saw all that from personal experience, not to demean anyone.

44

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I think it is both genders, boys are becoming softer while girls are becoming harder. Not sure what to do about it or anything on girls end, but if boys were able to do stuff boys have been doing for the last thousand years as a youngster- fighting and playing with other boys and working with men, I think it would make a difference. Any sort of behavior that suggests that want today is put down or medicated… I saw all that from personal experience, not to demean anyone.[/quote]

When you mentioned both genders, I wondered if you were going to say that a decrease in civility or increased “coarseness” is happening in both genders. In men this could be described as a decrease in the behavior that we think of as fitting a “man of integrity” or “gentleman”.

Here I’ll go with the dictionary definition - A gentleman is defined as a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.

As an aside, I think there are fewer men with traditional “manly” skills like knowing how to change the oil in the car, unclog a sink, or mow a lawn. In my neighborhood, many people pay others to do these tasks and so these skill sets are being lost. Are we doing a disservice to our boys by not teaching them these skills of self-sufficiency, because we can often afford to pay someone else to do them?

The same thing could be said for a lot of the traditionally feminine skills like sewing or cooking. Things are often disposable, we buy prepared foods, pay a tailor to mend things, etc…

I’m not making a case for men not knowing how to cook, or girls not learning to check the oil in the car. Just noting that maybe we are loosing some of these skills.

Does not knowing how to do “man stuff” contribute to a loss of “manliness” in boys?

45

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I think it is both genders, boys are becoming softer while girls are becoming harder. Not sure what to do about it or anything on girls end, but if boys were able to do stuff boys have been doing for the last thousand years as a youngster- fighting and playing with other boys and working with men, I think it would make a difference. Any sort of behavior that suggests that want today is put down or medicated… I saw all that from personal experience, not to demean anyone.[/quote]

When you mentioned both genders, I wondered if you were going to say that a decrease in civility or increased “coarseness” is happening in both genders. In men this could be described as a decrease in the behavior that we think of as fitting a “man of integrity” or “gentleman”.

Here I’ll go with the dictionary definition - A gentleman is defined as a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.

As an aside, I think there are fewer men with traditional “manly” skills like knowing how to change the oil in the car, unclog a sink, or mow a lawn. In my neighborhood, many people pay others to do these tasks and so these skill sets are being lost. Are we doing a disservice to our boys by not teaching them these skills of self-sufficiency, because we can often afford to pay someone else to do them?

The same thing could be said for a lot of the traditionally feminine skills like sewing or cooking. Things are often disposable, we buy prepared foods, pay a tailor to mend things, etc…

I’m not making a case for men not knowing how to cook, or girls not learning to check the oil in the car. Just noting that maybe we are loosing some of these skills.

 [/quote]

There are economic forces at hand here as well.
If we go into the wayback machine one income could sustain a middle class existence relatively easily. So the societal contract to some extent as it were would have the man working earning the money and woman taking care of the kids and the tasks would be traditionally split like you list with the man mowing the lawn performing maintenance and so on while the woman would take care of the tasks you mentioned. What breaks that a bit is the now often necessity for both parts of the family unit to work full time and then reallocate the home duties as necessary. So in all honesty I think its somewhat the opposite of what you say. Tasks that are cheaper either in dollars or time you farm out and others you still perform and pass on. What often gets lost is the simple pleasure in doing a good job in my opinion. I’ve mowed a lot of lawns and there is a proper way to do it. That is the part that is getting lost performing a task well simply because thats how things should be done and not doing the minimum to get by.
And we have certainly gained things as well as lost them. I value that its considered ok for the father to be the primary caregiver or to equally share in the caregiving for his kids now. This is a plus. And there are obviously others.

Are we doing a disservice to our kids? I think that depends on the individual parents and as the overall willingness to be responsible and desire to be the best we can even in simple things has gone down of course its passed on to our kids.

Violence in society has lessened and has continued to lessen. This is certainly a good thing but along with it our tolerance for necessary violence because of litigation or distaste or whatever has gone away. Obviously what is necessary is debatable but there is zero tolerance and that of course sucks. A lot of that is driven by the way the law sees things. If a school principal lets the kid that gets bullied fight back with no recourse and said bully beats the hell out of someone later and the principal kicks him out of school most of us would be ok good result both times. Unfortunately that principal would be likely seeing a legal action because he treated the situations differently and the law doesn’t like that. Throw in the complications of race if its there and you have a national tv event.

In the end though its still up to the individual to raise their kids to be self sufficient and to value learning and to look out for themselves. And there is personal perspective in play as well. I know a Mormon family that has two girls a little younger than my daughter. They have always been homeschooled and generally taught those womanly arts you say we might be losing. Their heads haven’t been filled with those male only things like math and science. They also have been spared any knowledge of Britney Spears so I guess its not all bad. They will be the perfect old fashioned wife to some Mormon guy someday. But that is likely all they’ll ever be able to be. Their options with limited schooling, limited social outlets and no knowledge of the mundane trivial world at all will be likely nothing more than a breeding machine for new Mormons. I see it almost akin to child abuse but to each their own I guess.

This is long and rambling but I didn’t want to leave you hanging on killing the thread.

The big breakdown you see in stupid ass posts from weird ass men’s movement sites is often in opposition to feminist sites that are anti essentialist. And that isn’t at all the position of most feminist women, just as the misogynist rantings of men that can’t fuck whatever woman they choose doesn’t speak for most…er well all men anyway.

46

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:

[quote]USMCpoolee wrote:
I think it is both genders, boys are becoming softer while girls are becoming harder. Not sure what to do about it or anything on girls end, but if boys were able to do stuff boys have been doing for the last thousand years as a youngster- fighting and playing with other boys and working with men, I think it would make a difference. Any sort of behavior that suggests that want today is put down or medicated… I saw all that from personal experience, not to demean anyone.[/quote]

When you mentioned both genders, I wondered if you were going to say that a decrease in civility or increased “coarseness” is happening in both genders. In men this could be described as a decrease in the behavior that we think of as fitting a “man of integrity” or “gentleman”.

Here I’ll go with the dictionary definition - A gentleman is defined as a chivalrous, courteous, or honorable man.

As an aside, I think there are fewer men with traditional “manly” skills like knowing how to change the oil in the car, unclog a sink, or mow a lawn. In my neighborhood, many people pay others to do these tasks and so these skill sets are being lost. Are we doing a disservice to our boys by not teaching them these skills of self-sufficiency, because we can often afford to pay someone else to do them?

The same thing could be said for a lot of the traditionally feminine skills like sewing or cooking. Things are often disposable, we buy prepared foods, pay a tailor to mend things, etc…

I’m not making a case for men not knowing how to cook, or girls not learning to check the oil in the car. Just noting that maybe we are loosing some of these skills.

Does not knowing how to do “man stuff” contribute to a loss of “manliness” in boys?

 [/quote]

One of my first real memories of “guy time” with my father was rebuilding the engine of a '72 Chevy Nova. Now I was about 7 or 8 at the time, my parents were divorced at this point and I was spending the weekend with my dad. We spent all Saturday elbows deep in that car. Now at the time, I didn’t know what the fuck a carburetor or an alternator was, but I sure knew the different kinds of screwdrivers and wrenches by the end of that weekend. My dad “tried” to explain things and actually let me work on a few of the bolts, but for the most part I was just handing him shit. Listening to classic rock the whole time.

My nuts started to drop that weekend. It wasn’t just the physical work or learning about tools, it was the interaction with my dad. I was able to “absorb” some of his masculinity, if you will. It was starting a project together, overcoming the inevitable obstacles, cussing like a sailor and getting dirty, and finishing the job. I can still remember the feeling of joy when that engine roared to life! It felt SO satisfying. Very few things in life that I’ve accomplished feel as good as that moment.

Of course nowadays the average Joe can’t work on his own car - it takes a half hour just to take all the plastic covers off the engine! But my son and I change oil together. With projects around the house, I get help from both of them. We rebuilt a lawnmower engine and changed a radiator on my truck. He seemed to like it and the time we spent working together. But he’s always checking his god damned cell phone the whole time! LOL Back then, life was a lot simpler. And being a man is simple. It’s not easy sometimes, but it’s simple. I think that’s one reason why todays boys are having trouble becoming men. They make shit too complicated.

My .02

47

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
And being a man is simple. It’s not easy sometimes, but it’s simple. [/quote]

Good line. And very true. It’s the simplest thing in the world.

I’m afraid, though, that what’s changing isn’t how many boys understand what it means to “be a man,” but the meaning of “being a man” itself. My girlfriend’s brothers are younger than I am and I’m amazed at them–they can tweet like nobody’s business but there isn’t a chance in the world that they’d be able to change a damn tire. And their dad is about as “man’s man” as they come.

48

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Traditional women’s roles are not valued in our society. Women who decide to be primarily wives and homemakers describe themselves as “just a mom”. There is an underlying message that intelligent women would do more. That you are somehow not living up to your potential and “being all you can be” if you choose to stay home raising kids. - That this is a collection of menial tasks which we can pay a illiterate non-English speaker to do.
[/quote]

I’m not sure where you live but there’s no way that my wife could stay at home and still be able to send our son to the school he goes to, afford the home we live in, etc. And with him in school most of the day it only makes sense that she works. I’m sure that we are not alone in that situation either. We price everything out of reach for the single income family and then wonder why both parents have to work.

I can understand why some parents check out a bit. They are working 40, 50, 60 hours at their jobs then have to come home and work there too. I’m not saying it’s right by any means just that I understand why it happens. And most parents themselves didn’t have great role models so where do they learn from? And we aren’t taught that hard work is something we should strive for. We’re taught that we should take the easy way out (real estate and finance jobs anyone?).

That all said, I don’t necessarily agree that boys are becoming pussies. I think that the educational system is failing our boys for sure. But that’s not the same as them becoming pussies. But there’s no male teachers for them to learn from or to understand their point of view. The classrooms are, as pointed out, set up for girls and not for boys. The removal of PE has also done a lot of harm to the ability of a boy to pay attention. I do think that’s going to change over time and as more people learn about this problem.

The premise of playing videogames being bad for kids is also a weak one. What’s the difference really between playing a video game or reading some pulp fiction novel? We’ve had books that depict violence for a long time but we never blamed them for bad behavior. Why? And I’m pretty sure that people were all up in arms when the written word was first brought into widespread use but somehow we survived that technology.

The article in the original post sucked by the way. “The answer is parenting”. Well no shit. Thanks for that insight.

james

49

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
I seem to kill any thread I respond to in this forum. :slight_smile:

This one has been dead for awhile, but it got me thinking…

Do any of you see a similar problem in the way we are raising girls? The topic of this thread is about “failing a generation of American boys…” Do you think we are also failing our girls? If so, how?

I’m not sure how to word this, but I see a “coarsening of women” in our culture that saddens me. I wonder if it is just an effect of too many negative role models on television, or if there are other factors at work in the structure of the American family.

EDIT
To be more clear, I’d define “coarsening” as less cordial, less polite, more shrill, less ladylike, less soft and nurturing, more crass or profane, less refined in terms of basic civility and manners, - Do you see it as a gendered problem, or do you think it’s happening to both genders? Maybe it just seems more appalling in young women, because we traditionally expect them to be more gentle, or refined than the boys? [/quote]

I have a 12 year old daughter, and I fight every day to counter what she hears from her friends in 6th grade. Girls today want to be more slezzy. My wife and I make sure that the clothes my daughter wears are tasteful. I guess the slezzy girls believe that will get them a man, but IMO it gets a man, but does not keep him, or guarantee that he is going to treat her right. I am a Bible Believing Evangelical so we attend church together, and I try to show my daughter how a woman is suppose to be treated. I open all doors for my wife. I hug my wife all the time, and I kiss my wife conservatively in public. I think my daughter is picking up on this stuff because anytime a looser guy asks her out she tells them no. She has a high standard, and I hope it stays that way.

There is not one thing that is making our boys and girls to go downhill. There are a lot of things that add up, but IMO the break up of the family unit was the first step.

50

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
Traditional women’s roles are not valued in our society. Women who decide to be primarily wives and homemakers describe themselves as “just a mom”. There is an underlying message that intelligent women would do more. That you are somehow not living up to your potential and “being all you can be” if you choose to stay home raising kids. - That this is a collection of menial tasks which we can pay a illiterate non-English speaker to do.
[/quote]

I’m not sure where you live but there’s no way that my wife could stay at home and still be able to send our son to the school he goes to, afford the home we live in, etc. And with him in school most of the day it only makes sense that she works. I’m sure that we are not alone in that situation either. We price everything out of reach for the single income family and then wonder why both parents have to work…

james

[/quote]

I agree that individual circumstances vary. Couples have to decide these things together, and I’m not making a case for going back to the 1950’s. BUT - Many women and men do not value traditional women’s work, and many believe that parenting can be outsourced. Parents who both work long hours, are often only interacting with their kids for a couple of hours everyday. That’s not a lot of time to instill your morals and values. I don’t think most people see it as an ideal situation.

As you pointed out, sometimes this is a necessity, but there are many who will choose to maintain a two-income household with busy careers, while raising young kids - maybe for their personal fulfillment, or maybe to afford nicer cars, a larger home, better vacations, and more things to store in their mini-storage. You can’t argue, that our culture has become characterized by consumerism. We like to own a lot of stuff.

We can argue about how the pendulum swings. Martha Stewart types have made the image of “homemaking” an art form, and a luxury for the more affluent. Some couples see having a stay-at-home mom as a sign of status. “I make enough money, my woman doesn’t need to work.” We see television families on shows like the very funny Modern Family. They all have a stay-at-home parent (well, at least until Cam went to work part-time last season), yet they can still afford a life-style that most American’s would dream of. Or, maybe most Americans think they SHOULD have, and will incur debt to get. I’m not sure which.

As you mentioned, the two-income family has driven up the price of everything, including housing. We could blame feminism, or the women’s movement. The fact remains, fewer American couples are having children. We’ve seen this trend in Europe for sometime now, with falling birth rates. It’s not a good thing for the future. And of those who do have kids, more of the work of raising a family is being delegated to others.

51

[quote]groo wrote:
… What breaks that a bit is the now often necessity for both parts of the family unit to work full time and then reallocate the home duties as necessary. So in all honesty I think its somewhat the opposite of what you say. Tasks that are cheaper either in dollars or time you farm out and others you still perform and pass on. What often gets lost is the simple pleasure in doing a good job in my opinion. I’ve mowed a lot of lawns and there is a proper way to do it. That is the part that is getting lost performing a task well simply because thats how things should be done and not doing the minimum to get by.

And we have certainly gained things as well as lost them. I value that its considered ok for the father to be the primary caregiver or to equally share in the caregiving for his kids now. This is a plus. And there are obviously others.

[/quote]

It’s true about how the economics of some of these tasks has changed. Thanks for your post, Groo. And I agree that there is a simple pleasure and pride in knowing how to do things yourself.

Certainly, there’s been a lot of good that has come with men sharing in the care giving role. I’d imagine it was much more like that way back when America was an agrarian society, all of the family working together. So many men now spend very long hours away from their families. It’s fortunate that there has been a shift in many industries toward working from home, or more flexibility.

Just a quick anecdote. I recently attended the funeral of an old family friend. He was extremely successful in business, in fact he was President and Principle Executive Officer of one of the big Investment Companies you would all recognize. More than that, he was just a really good man, a quality individual. It was a privilege to know him. He and his wife raised four kids. Here’s a family who could have afforded to pay someone to do everything, but there were a lot of great stories about how, when he was raising his young family, he worked together with his kids on the weekend to take care of the yard, clean the pool, and wash the cars. Why? He wanted to teach them to work, and he wanted them to be self-sufficient. He didn’t want them to be raised like a bunch of trust fund kids. A lot of jokes were made about how frugal he was. He would walk many blocks in the snow instead of taking a cab. :slight_smile: The guy had values. Same wife for 49 years.

I have appreciated reading all the posts here.

Angry Chicken, that was a great story about learning mechanical skills from your dad. True, the cars are so reliable now, they rarely break down. :slight_smile:

52

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Powerpuff wrote:
I seem to kill any thread I respond to in this forum. :slight_smile:

This one has been dead for awhile, but it got me thinking…

Do any of you see a similar problem in the way we are raising girls? The topic of this thread is about “failing a generation of American boys…” Do you think we are also failing our girls? If so, how?

I’m not sure how to word this, but I see a “coarsening of women” in our culture that saddens me. I wonder if it is just an effect of too many negative role models on television, or if there are other factors at work in the structure of the American family.

EDIT
To be more clear, I’d define “coarsening” as less cordial, less polite, more shrill, less ladylike, less soft and nurturing, more crass or profane, less refined in terms of basic civility and manners, - Do you see it as a gendered problem, or do you think it’s happening to both genders? Maybe it just seems more appalling in young women, because we traditionally expect them to be more gentle, or refined than the boys? [/quote]

I have a 12 year old daughter, and I fight every day to counter what she hears from her friends in 6th grade. Girls today want to be more slezzy. My wife and I make sure that the clothes my daughter wears are tasteful. I guess the slezzy girls believe that will get them a man, but IMO it gets a man, but does not keep him, or guarantee that he is going to treat her right. I am a Bible Believing Evangelical so we attend church together, and I try to show my daughter how a woman is suppose to be treated. I open all doors for my wife. I hug my wife all the time, and I kiss my wife conservatively in public. I think my daughter is picking up on this stuff because anytime a looser guy asks her out she tells them no. She has a high standard, and I hope it stays that way.

There is not one thing that is making our boys and girls to go downhill. There are a lot of things that add up, but IMO the break up of the family unit was the first step. [/quote]

It sounds like you and your wife are ahead of the game. I share your concern about raising daughters. I imagine there are very few parents here who are going to take a “pro” position on the early sexualization of young girls.

A related article - Victoria’s Secret: Setting Young Girls up for the Weinsteins of Hollywood

About modesty, we live in a warm climate near the beach, where people are often out and about in swimwear, or very few clothes. It can be challenging to teach young girls what is acceptable, particularly when they want so badly to be part of the peer group. Young girls may not want the attention from boys, but they really want to fit in with their friends. And all the skimpiness can be a distraction in school, and get a lot of the wrong kind of attention from much older boys.

I have some mixed feelings on this topic myself. As a woman with a BBing hobby, there is a lot of focus on appearance. I think the human body is a miracle, and exceptionally beautiful. I hope to be an example of health and athleticism for my kids. I think the waifish beauty ideal we see in the media can be damaging. Still, I have considered doing a physique competition, but my husband would rather not see me sprayed orange on stage in front of a bunch of strangers in a tiny sparkly bikini. :slight_smile: Understandable. To anyone outside the small world of BBing, it’s pretty weird. And we both worry a bit about the mixed message that might send our kids, in terms of both modesty and body image.

Another tack on raising girls - the teen pregnancy rate has been dropping for the past couple of decades. Unfortunately, it’s not all good news for the family. The New Unmarried Moms - WSJ