Explain Socialism to Me

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]harduser wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

this is typicall utopian socialisme. you cant start an island of socialisme in a capitalist sea. its been tried many times and it does not work. it is obvius why it doesnt work.

The only way to establish socialisme is trough a revolution, it meens the majority ofthe people abolish the capitalist state and create there owne, and that they nationalize big bussines and give the control to the workers. This can offcourse fail, but if the average person is educated of some sort it has a possibility to sucseed. this meens that a country like the usa or norway can have socialisme because the people have basic education.
[/quote]

I am sorry I don’t understand why it wouldn’t work. Please explain it to me.

The socialist commune should do just fine in my mind, if it works the way socialism says it will. The workers will get more money, they should be producing plenty and competing well, they will be happy and motivated. This commune should lead by example and I’m sure more and more people would hop on the train. But, if as you say, it has been tried many times and it failed, that sounds like a problem. I am interested in learning why exactly it failed.[/quote]

some of the first socialist talked about this. they belived that they could start a commune in the middle of the society, and some of them did. after a short time they did not exist anymore. The problem with this form of socialisme is that it dont realize that a small commune most interact with the rest of the society to survive, and if the rest of the society is capitalist, then they most play by the rules. in other words they most produce for profit so they can trade with the big society. In socialisme you dont produce for profit, you produce only what the people need and wants. So therfor they had to become capitalist or shut down. Thats why you need a revolution of the society. ps the revolution thus not need to be violent, but the capitalistclass will often defend there power with guns.

[/quote]

Excuse me, how do you think companies make profits?

By producing what people need and want.

The more profit, the more succesful they were in producing what people need and want.

[/quote]

oh really?

Do you know that the 3 biggest industrys in the our capitalist world is the weapon industry, sex industry and the drug industry! [/quote]

Are you telling me that people do not want sex, drugs and weapons or that you think they should not want them?

Because that is not quite the same.

182

…is this too socialist for you?

183

[quote]ephrem wrote:
…is this too socialist for you?

Yes, but if all a government wants to do is to build first class infrastructure that would be the very last on my list of things I would change.

184

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)â??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.

185

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)â??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

186

For example, am I going to pay anyone a “living wage” of $20 per hour to mow my lawn?

Absolutely not: I’ll do it myself.

Might it be the case that someone would like to mow my lawn, using my mower, for say $5 an hour and I might consider it worth paying that, as it would free up time for other things? It might.

Now, some in Washington and some of those who vote for them would say that they are accomplishing a good deed by using government force to prevent both of us from doing what we would like to do in a mutually voluntary agreement.

These people, of course, know better than people making their own voluntary decisions do.

187

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

I was a third generation steel worker. My grandfather stood on many picket lines; back in the day where crossing it would guarantee an ass whooping and possibly your life. He might have kicked my ass if I did not to maximize the amount of money I can get for my labor.

You may be right about some jobs being only worth $5 an hour. If some one can live for that amount then that is a fair wage. I can tell you it is much higher than that in Phoenix. If you want to live in a society like that feel free to do so.

Your problem is America is not a free market. And the closest you can come is a fair market.

188

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
For example, am I going to pay anyone a “living wage” of $20 per hour to mow my lawn?

Absolutely not: I’ll do it myself.

Might it be the case that someone would like to mow my lawn, using my mower, for say $5 an hour and I might consider it worth paying that, as it would free up time for other things? It might.

Now, some in Washington and some of those who vote for them would say that they are accomplishing a good deed by using government force to prevent both of us from doing what we would like to do in a mutually voluntary agreement.

These people, of course, know better than people making their own voluntary decisions do.[/quote]

I am one of the few people that cut their own grass; I can tell you my neighbors pay at least that.

I wish you luck to get someone to cut your grass for five bucks, I guarantee you could not even get an illegal to do it. The illegal are not stupid they will cut their price to the point where some one like me that has liability Insurance and pay my taxes can not compete. That is where they will draw the line

189

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

190

I expect that the vast majority of the leftists and socialists you debate with do not know enough to understand that the terms “demand” and “supply” refer to functions (or curves), rather than being specific amounts. And further, these are functions that change according to conditions. For example, the supply curve for ethanol in the US changes according to government subsidy.

Thus they do not understand that the law of supply and demand still controls the amount actually produced, the amount actually demanded, and the price whether or not the government passes any given law.

191

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ?

192

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ? [/quote]

So one of us does not get it :-)…

Are you a 100% sure that it is me?

193

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Capitalsim will never work in a society that is immoral.
[/quote]

Capitalism allows the immoral people to be justly punished.

In fact it is socialism that protects the immoral.[/quote]

So the free market reserves the ability to tell right from wrong?

You’re an idiot.

194

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]duffyj2 wrote:
Capitalsim will never work in a society that is immoral.
[/quote]

Capitalism allows the immoral people to be justly punished.

In fact it is socialism that protects the immoral.[/quote]

So the free market reserves the ability to tell right from wrong?

You’re an idiot.[/quote]

No, but it tells you what works and what does not.

If you can accept the premise that mores are necesarily based on what works and what does not, the instant feedback that the market provides must lead to a more moral people.

Take that ye snarky basterd!

195

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�??�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ? [/quote]

So one of us does not get it :-)…

Are you a 100% sure that it is me?

[/quote]

Tell me how does a green sky pertain to our conversation, I want you to pass your law , please do it and when can I expect your results? thanks :slight_smile:

196

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�??�??�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ? [/quote]

So one of us does not get it :-)…

Are you a 100% sure that it is me?

[/quote]

Tell me how does a green sky pertain to our conversation, I want you to pass your law , please do it and when can I expect your results? thanks :)[/quote]

That was kind of the point.

You can pass laws till the cows come home, but if economic conditions wont permit it you might as well decree the sky to be green.

It is taking wishful thinking to a whole new level.

197

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ? [/quote]

So one of us does not get it :-)…

Are you a 100% sure that it is me?

[/quote]

Tell me how does a green sky pertain to our conversation, I want you to pass your law , please do it and when can I expect your results? thanks :)[/quote]

That was kind of the point.

You can pass laws till the cows come home, but if economic conditions wont permit it you might as well decree the sky to be green.

It is taking wishful thinking to a whole new level.

[/quote]
problem is , it’s not reality. there are laws that most of us have to play by

198

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ? [/quote]

So one of us does not get it :-)…

Are you a 100% sure that it is me?

[/quote]

Tell me how does a green sky pertain to our conversation, I want you to pass your law , please do it and when can I expect your results? thanks :)[/quote]

That was kind of the point.

You can pass laws till the cows come home, but if economic conditions wont permit it you might as well decree the sky to be green.

It is taking wishful thinking to a whole new level.

[/quote]
problem is , it’s not reality. there are laws that most of us have to play by [/quote]

So these laws are “reality”.

Interesting!

199

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Taking against their will from a person or persons who own something is not, as you would have it, simply “giving” it to someone else, but involves stealing it from the owner first.

You seem to continually neglect the fact that the workers are paid according to a mutually-agreeable plan voluntarily arrived at.

Their deciding, or you and other socialists deciding later that they on top of what was agreed are now going to take the means of production “because it’s theirs” is theft.

I’m not surprised you don’t own a car: it fits.

'Nuff said, I’m done. You’ve given your best answer after many times ignoring what I’d said (though of course you’re free to continue to assert that socialism does not involve stealing means of production by use of force or credible threat of force) and I think everyone will be free to see how bogus your claims are.[/quote]

The people that claim the free market would be best to dictate the prevailing wage , do not grasp that America is not a free market in regards to labor , we import labor from Mexico , so that we can start way below a wage any intelligent American would work[/quote]

Are Mexicans not human people?

Because it seems that the free market works for them.

I find it interesting that a " market" fails in your eyes if it diverts resources from the relatively rich to the dirt poor.

Excuse me, but I am not that cynical, Mexicans need to feed their families too.

[/quote]

They bring Mexicans in, allow them to live in sub standard housing pay them below minimum wage, driving the minimum wage to third word countries wages. A free market would allow American workers to compete with only legal residents.

These houses are condemnable and they 20 and 30 living to a house and we are forcing Americans to compete with that. Free does not just mean free for the employer it means free for the labor to have to compete with unfair labor practices

One of the reasons people will not get off the public welfare roles is because it is easy to make more on welfare than at Mickey (D)�??�??�??�??�??�??�??�?�¢??s . Now all Americans are subsidizing business that does not pay a livable wage.

Mexicans are human and I personally would be happy to compete with them for my income, if they had to play by the same rules.
[/quote]

Newsflash:

  1. There are no rules but supply and demand.

Which brings us to

  1. If they do not come to you, your companies go to them or some jobs will not be done at all.
    Some jobs are only worth 5$ an hour and if someone wants to do them, let them. Nobody is going to pay what you deem to be “livable” wages for these jobs.

The market is telling you something and you refuse to listen and yet somehow the market is to blame?

Wake up, no American has a birthright to an “affordable wage” and the Mexicans, Chinese and Indians want their share of the pie and no amount of bitching and moaning will change that there are literally hundreds of millions of people who are living in cardboard boxes and are in every sense of the word very, very hungry.

They dont care about their “rights”, they care about food, clothing and a halfway decent furture for their kids.

America became great because of people like that and if your Grandfather could hear you bitch and moan about the few and far between obstacles Americans face he would slap you silly.

And hire a Mexican.

[/quote]

NEWS FLASH:)

You are wrong America has laws pertaining to Labor, Housing, Insurance and all kind of laws about business. So America does not function by the law supply and demand only. And they are being followed . That is why I am pissing and moaning. I have to follow them

[/quote]

You know what laws are?

Poetry books for people that think that they are above or beyond wishful thinking and yet arent.

So your laws say people must earn a certain sum?

Could I pass a law declaring the sky to be green?

I like green!

[/quote]

I have to wonder about people that can not comunicate with out retiring to non sense ? [/quote]

So one of us does not get it :-)…

Are you a 100% sure that it is me?

[/quote]

Tell me how does a green sky pertain to our conversation, I want you to pass your law , please do it and when can I expect your results? thanks :)[/quote]

That was kind of the point.

You can pass laws till the cows come home, but if economic conditions wont permit it you might as well decree the sky to be green.

It is taking wishful thinking to a whole new level.

[/quote]
problem is , it’s not reality. there are laws that most of us have to play by [/quote]

So these laws are “reality”.

Interesting![/quote]

Yes these laws are reality, and believe it or not America is better for these laws. That is why the earth quake in Haiti was more devastating than the one in Chile even though the magnitude of the earth quake in Chile was greater. It is regulations or LAWS pertaining to the construction industry.

Paying taxes, I do not like paying taxes. But I like living with all the conveniences of running water, Eclectic 24/7, roads, Highways and many others. I can not afford to pay some one with a fire truck to put out the fire at my house if it happens, I would only call the police to cover my ass, but some consider it a valuable public service. I like living in a country that does not worry about being taken over
And we must pay for it

200

ORLY?

Where’s that bakery that pays so well that other shops can’t compete and are forced to raise their wages? It doesn’t exist of course, but this is not a problem since you’re talking about capitalism.

It’s been over 200 years now. How much more time do you need?

Two words: trade unions.

You need to decide what capitalism is and is not, and define it in no uncertain terms. Here, you’re trying to give capitalism credit for something which the capitalists fought tooth and nail, which was 100% the accomplishment of the trades unions, elsewhere you’re trying to dump responsibility for all capitalism’s problems on the government, on the Fed, anywhere but on capitalism itself. You attempt to give capitalism the credit for anything good which happens in a country, and absolve it of responsibility for anything bad. Do I really have to point out to you how childish and unrealistic this is? Really?