Evolutionary Confusion

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I’m not in the Army but have done gene research in Iowa. I understand how science works. I also understand it’s weaknesses. I feel sorry for anyone who bases absolutely everything they believe only in what can be shown directly to them. [/quote]

A few days ago, you wrote: “I have flat feet. I am in the military.” Are you in the military or not?

Would you care to list a few of science’s weaknesses? I’m curious as to what you think those are.

As for feeling sorry, don’t. Admitting to myself that I was an atheist was one of the most liberating things I ever did. Felt great. Still does.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
I’m not in the Army but have done gene research in Iowa. I understand how science works. I also understand it’s weaknesses. I feel sorry for anyone who bases absolutely everything they believe only in what can be shown directly to them.

A few days ago, you wrote: “I have flat feet. I am in the military.” Are you in the military or not?

Would you care to list a few of science’s weaknesses? I’m curious as to what you think those are.

As for feeling sorry, don’t. Admitting to myself that I was an atheist was one of the most liberating things I ever did. Felt great. Still does.[/quote]

Since when does “military” mean “Army”? You have the nerve to call me out as if I can’t understand science yet you didn’t know that the Army is not all there is to the military? You asked for the weaknesses of science. The main one is the belief that it has all of the answers.

Right on X! Science doesn’t have the answers that’s why it still searches for them and proves itself wrong all the time.

Somebody show me the scientific experiment that proves the Bible wrong? The burden of proof is now on you. The Bible has been around longer than Darwin, so any new ideas (ie. evolution) automatically have the burden of proof. You can’t say your “faith” in science, beats out my faith in God. Just give up if that’s what you’re saying.

Okay then atheist friends, you believe that man evolved from from an early ape like ancestor… do you also believe in the big bang theory?.. something from nothing, nothing into something, chaos into order.

It seems to me that the world is getting more chaotic, how do you explain this in evolutionary big bang terms?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
You asked for the weaknesses of science. The main one is the belief that it has all of the answers.[/quote]

the belief that science has ALL the answers to EVERYTHING is a tenet of science?

since when?

perhaps I was asleep when this axiom was being presented in the science classes that I’ve taken…

[quote]DPH wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You asked for the weaknesses of science. The main one is the belief that it has all of the answers.

the belief that science has ALL the answers to EVERYTHING is a tenet of science?

since when?

perhaps I was asleep when this axiom was being presented in the science classes that I’ve taken…[/quote]

For someone who has no belief in the supranatural, since when does science not explain everything or at least attempt to with the belief that in time, it will?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
since when does science not explain everything or at least attempt to with the belief that in time, it will?
[/quote]

attempting to explain how nature works could hardly be considered a weakness…

the idea that science could one day possibly be able to explain how all natural phenomena works is not a weakness either (although this idea is impractical considering the body of knowledge it would probably take to explain all natural phenomena)…

the true limitation to science, in my opinion, is that science cannot answer the question ‘why does nature exist at all?’

science is only able to answer (possibly) how, not why…

for instance…just for the sake of argument…let’s say big bang theorists are correct…the universe started with a big bang and one day science will be able to explain all natural phenomena from that moment on…but where science fails is that it cannot answer why the big bang happened at all…

I think that science attempts to explain how natural phenomena works regardless of whether someone has a belief in the supranatural or not…or maybe I don’t know what your getting at with this statement?

[quote]DPH wrote:
attempting to explain how nature works could hardly be considered a weakness…
[/quote]

No one said it was. I try to do that everyday. Why would anyone think that believing in a higher power means you stop looking for answers?

[quote]
the idea that science could one day possibly be able to explain how all natural phenomena works is not a weakness either (although this idea is impractical considering the body of knowledge it would probably take to explain all natural phenomena)…[/quote]

Do you think I believe otherwise?

[quote]
the true limitation to science, in my opinion, is that science cannot answer the question ‘why does nature exist at all?’[/quote]

Which is what I was referring to.

[quote]
I think that science attempts to explain how natural phenomena works regardless of whether someone has a belief in the supranatural or not…or maybe I don’t know what your getting at with this statement?[/quote]

You don’t get it because you are avoiding the fact that it was directed at those who assume with absolute conviction that there is no higher power. That alone takes a faith in science just as strong or stronger than a belief in God. It simply places man in the position of God.

[quote]IHateGymMorons wrote:
Right on X! Science doesn’t have the answers that’s why it still searches for them and proves itself wrong all the time. [/quote]

Yes. That is the way it works. It?s actually one of it?s strengths, not weaknesses.

[quote]

Somebody show me the scientific experiment that proves the Bible wrong? The burden of proof is now on you. The Bible has been around longer than Darwin, so any new ideas (ie. evolution) automatically have the burden of proof. You can’t say your “faith” in science, beats out my faith in God. Just give up if that’s what you’re saying. [/quote]

The bible has never proven wrong. Let?s assume that was true.

Let?s talk about Apoll, Freya, Mithras, Thor, Wotan, Bal, Zeus, Horus, Isis, Osiris, Tanit, Viracocha, Pachamama, Mamacocha, Mamaquilla, Aesma Daeva, Angra Mainyu, Gandarewa, Haurvatat, Nairyosangha, Sraosa, Vouruskasha, and so on. All of them gods. A lot of them have holy scriptures going for them. Some of them are older than the bible. Some are A LOT older. If the bible has never been proven wrong, nor have their scriptures.

Why is your holy book special?

[quote]

Okay then atheist friends, you believe that man evolved from from an early ape like ancestor… do you also believe in the big bang theory?.. something from nothing, nothing into something, chaos into order.

It seems to me that the world is getting more chaotic, how do you explain this in evolutionary big bang terms?[/quote]

http://www.godchecker.com/ no matter what your spiritual needs are, they have a god for you. 2500 right now.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Since when does “military” mean “Army”? You have the nerve to call me out as if I can’t understand science yet you didn’t know that the Army is not all there is to the military? You asked for the weaknesses of science. The main one is the belief that it has all of the answers. [/quote]

That’s a big, steaming pile of crap. Science and scientists (real ones, that is) never claim to have all the answers.

There is the belief that through research and experiments, we can build theories to explain the physical world in which we live and that as our knowledge progresses, we will be able to explain more and more of what we don’t understand today.

That you, as a supposed scientist, would claim that some things can never be explained, or worse, that it’s a waste of time to even try, is simply retarded. What are you afraid of? Is your faith so weak that even the idea of being able to explain things you believe to be due to “divine design” is threatening to you? Not quite at the level of the mustard seed yet, are you?

Do you think that without science, you’d even have done “gene research” in Iowa? Do you think that all the technology available to you to help your patients came to us through prayer?

You’re the first scientist I meet that seems so afraid of “good science”. When your turn in the US Army Nurse Corps is over, you might want to apply at the Discovery Institute. I hear they like your kind of science. The position of Assistant Witch Doctor is currently open.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…those who assume with absolute conviction that there is no higher power. [/quote]

I don’t remember seeing any message from anyone stating that they were absolutely convinced that there’s no higher power.

Just as you’re pretty sure there is a higher power, since you see all the obvious signs; some of us are pretty sure there’s not as it appears we interpret those signs a little differently.

Neither of us will convince anyone on the other side; any change of heart from anyone will come from within.

Oddly, the fact that atheists and agnostics even exist seems to make you angry and/or uncomfortable… If we’re just “morons who think they’re smarter than everyone” why are you so threatened?

While I do find that some of the believers are morons (Hell, they even put it in their alias) I generally find that you’re an interesting, intelligent guy to read. But for some reason, when the topic turns to science and faith, you seem to give your brain the day off.

[quote]pookie wrote:
That’s a big, steaming pile of crap. Science and scientists (real ones, that is) never claim to have all the answers.[/quote]

How would you know? If I am no scientist then you surely aren’t.

[quote]
That you, as a supposed scientist, would claim that some things can never be explained, or worse, that it’s a waste of time to even try, is simply retarded. What are you afraid of? Is your faith so weak that even the idea of being able to explain things you believe to be due to “divine design” is threatening to you? Not quite at the level of the mustard seed yet, are you?[/quote]

I’m sorry, but where did I give the impression that I was afraid to look for answers? I even had this discussion with DPH where my position should be very clear to you. Perhaps you only read the responses to your own posts. I love answers. I like explaining the way things work. Hell, I made a career out of it. I look forward to finding out more and more about the world around me. It is why I wanted to study biology in the first place. Those aren’t the actions of someone afraid of knowledge. I think many atheists believe that someone can’t believe in God and still look for answers to the physical world around them. That is bullshit and you should know that by now.

[quote]
Do you think that without science, you’d even have done “gene research” in Iowa? Do you think that all the technology available to you to help your patients came to us through prayer?[/quote]

Again, read above. Believing in God does not mean you stop looking for answers. That was WHY I did research.

[quote]
You’re the first scientist I meet that seems so afraid of “good science”. When your turn in the US Army Nurse Corps is over, you might want to apply at the Discovery Institute. I hear they like your kind of science. The position of Assistant Witch Doctor is currently open.[/quote]

I see. You still haven’t pieced together the concept of an AirForce, Navy or Marine Corps. Maybe one day you’ll understand the simple world around you better, huh?

[quote]pookie wrote:

I don’t remember seeing any message from anyone stating that they were absolutely convinced that there’s no higher power.

Just as you’re pretty sure there is a higher power, since you see all the obvious signs; some of us are pretty sure there’s not as it appears we interpret those signs a little differently. [/quote]

Ah, I should have said those who “pretty much don’t believe” because this means something OH SO different than absolute disbelief. My bad. You got me, you super sleuth, you.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is a theory and no matter how hard you try, it holds no more “scientific” merit than intelligent design. [/quote]

I really must stop you here. The Theory of Evolution holds more scientific merit than Intelligent Design because it is based on scientific facts (fossils, physics, genes, etc.), and because it doesn’t add unsubstantiated mechanisms (a deity) to make it functional.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
Professor X wrote:
It is a theory and no matter how hard you try, it holds no more “scientific” merit than intelligent design.

I really must stop you here. The Theory of Evolution holds more scientific merit than Intelligent Design because it is based on scientific facts (fossils, physics, genes, etc.), and because it doesn’t add unsubstantiated mechanisms (a deity) to make it functional.[/quote]

Of course. However, it does attempt to fill in the “gaps” with unsubstantiated theory and ideas. I don’t really believe that Intelligent Design should be taught in schools. I do, however, believe that Evolution should be explained as a theory instead of giving lessons as if it is truth that we will simply prove later.

[quote]The bible has never proven wrong. Let?s assume that was true.

Let?s talk about Apoll, Freya, Mithras, Thor, Wotan, Bal, Zeus, Horus, Isis, Osiris, Tanit, Viracocha, Pachamama, Mamacocha, Mamaquilla, Aesma Daeva, Angra Mainyu, Gandarewa, Haurvatat, Nairyosangha, Sraosa, Vouruskasha, and so on. All of them gods. A lot of them have holy scriptures going for them. Some of them are older than the bible. Some are A LOT older. If the bible has never been proven wrong, nor have their scriptures.

Why is your holy book special? [/quote]

A good point. I pondered on god and creation and evolution while working on my snatch technique. I found that if I really concentrate on getting a good shrug before dropping under the bar, the weight almost floats above my head. Thats a profound moment of self discovery, probably the best type of discovery that any of us can hope for. Maybe that is what all of this is about, finding what works for you.

BH6

Individuals don’t evolve, species evolve! Again, you are confusing technological prowess with biological evolution. An animal doesn’t decide to evolve; it suffers a mutation that gives it some sort of advantage over it fellow animals such that it is more proficent at getting food, fighting, or some other activity that will guarantee it will be stronger, live longer, have more mates, and leave more descendents. They, in turn, will also possess this beneficial quality, such that they’ll be more successful than those without it, and so on and so forth until all memebers of the species possess this atribute. When the playing field is even, some other mutation will take place introducing another benefit and it starts again.

I cant see the past and sure cant see the future, its hard to say, but I sure am not smart enough or ignorant enough to say for sure.

[quote]Gregus wrote:
And that’s cool with me. However i spoke to a few college students and they all are convinced that evolution is a proven FACT and no longer a theory. This is where i have a problem. The evolutionists are very zelaous in teaching their theory by skimming over the fact that this is still an unproven theory.[/quote]

Evolution IS a fact. Nobody denies that, not even the fundamentalists, because they’ve seem it happen (in labs, in the world, etc.). Creationists call this micro-evolution, and they’re generally fine with it.

Now, the problem lies in speciation. Creationists do not accept that we began as single-cell organisms that, through many, many steps of micro-evolution, became all the different species that we see today, plus all the ones that became extinct. This, they call macro-evolution.

As far as theories: The proposed mechanisms by which animals adapt genetically to their circumstances, thus evolving, and eventually spawn different species, such that we can trace back every living creature’s beginings to a single-sell organism in the deep past, is called The Theory of Evolution.

As far as it being “just” a theory, I’m afraid it doesn’t get better than that. It’s already been pointed out before, but I’ll repeat it in hopes that it will be understood once and for all (and a clearer case of unfounded faith I never saw):

A theory is constructed around facts. When new facts are discovered, they are compared to the theory, if they agree, great! If the new facts don’t agree, then the theory is modified to explain both the old, and new facts. As time goes by, more and more facts appear. The more facts you have, the more complete your theory will be. This also means that the longer a theory is around, the more likely it is to be correct, in general, because new facts will only change details of the theory, as the grounds on which it stands are by now pretty solid.

Why doesn’t it get better than this? Because you have to provide every single piece of evidence in order to “prove it is truth.” In general, this cannot be accomplished, because you would require an infinite number of pieces of evidence.

Why is Creationism not a theory? When it appeared, it explained everything really well; how all the animals got to be here, how long we’d been here, etc. When dinosaur fossils, and fossils of extinct animals began to surface, it said, “well, that’s explained in the Bible: the flood, the monsters, etc.” Up to now it’s still behaving like a theory.

The problem came when fossils of human ancestors began to surface, when Darwin pulished his Origin of the Species, and later when physics proved the age of the Earth was 4.5 billion years, when the age of the Universe was found to be of the order of 15 billion years, when DNA was discovered, when the mechanism for physical changes (mutations) was discovered, etc., etc.

Creation could not explain or account for all of these findings. And here Creationism proved it was not a theory. Had it been so, it would have incorporated all these findings into its main body, instead it treated them as peripheral anomalies, citing faith-testing, lying scientists and other such reasons for not taking them into account.

Basically, Creationism says: This is my story, and I’m sticking to it. If anything is discovered that doesn’t agree with what I’m saying, then that piece of evidence is faulty, wrong, or otherwise unacceptable and shall be ignored.

So now, please, pretty please, with a frickin cherry on top:

[b]STOP SAYING IT’S JUST A THEORY AND BRING SOMETHING OF SUBSTANCE TO THE DISCUSSION[b].

[quote]Professor X wrote:
How would you know? If I am no scientist then you surely aren’t. [/quote]

They publish papers. I read them.

From the discussion we had in the “They’re Made of Meat” thread. In that thread, you explained your view that “destroying the earth” was already preordained and showed no real interest in the rest of the universe around it.

Struck me as an unscientific and somehow primitive view for a scientist.

You also showed no curiosity as to whether they’re could be life elsewhere. This same point was repeated again in another post of yours when you said that life had occured only once in the universe. I doubt you’ve checked it all to make sure.

My point about abiogenesis being a possibility worth investigating also went unanswered. Apparently, you’ve already made up your mind as to what we’ll discover when we do test those hypotheses.

I can go on if you’re still wondering where the impression comes from…

[quote]I see. You still haven’t pieced together the concept of an AirForce, Navy or Marine Corps. Maybe one day you’ll understand the simple world around you better, huh?
[/quote]

If you’re too dense to understand that to most layman “the army” encompasses the whole military, well that’s your problem.

Anyway, let me hasard a new guess: You’re in the Navy. They tie a rope around your ankle and use you as a boat anchor.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Ah, I should have said those who “pretty much don’t believe” because this means something OH SO different than absolute disbelief. My bad. You got me, you super sleuth, you.[/quote]

Personnally, I couldn’t defend “disbelief with absolute conviction” as a position. Their is no way to prove either side of the question, hence, the only tenable position has to allow for possible error. Like I said, I used to be a devout agnostic, but that term confuses everyone.

As far as I’m concerned, certitude either way requires a bit of self-deception. Except that on your side, it’s called “faith” and considered a good thing.

[quote]Miserere wrote:
Evolution IS a fact.[/quote]

Yes, but Evolution Theory DOES NOT currently explain all aspects of it correctly.

One indication that pretty much everyone agrees that it based on fact is that even the Creationists have to admit that the idea of a 6000 years old Earth is unsustainable. I see Intelligent Design as an admission on their part that the fossil record and all other evidence of the age of the Earth and the universe simply cannot be ignored. Doing so gets you laughed out of the room.

Intelligent Design is bad news for future science students; but the simple fact that hardline creationists recognise the need to disguise their creation fable in such a way is a victory for science.