Evolution is Wrong?

merlin1 · September 28, 2007, 2:53am

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:

Last question, what does it feel like to fight a battle trapped on a loosing team that’s doomed to failure?[/quote]

I don’t know kid. You tell me…

Unless you need help with your math homework, don’t be expecting me to answer questions on stuff that YOU study. I could do it, but why?(you may as well ask me questions about the pyramids; I don’t know much about them but you seem to want to prove to others that you are smart …why me) …you could have done that with FF, ahahaha I know why) That would be like me sending you math problems and say “solve em’” …just how retarded are you anyway?

I do know a little about quantum physics, but this is not a htread topic either. What exactly is your problem? With a short psycho babble answer — inferiority complex …gotta be! I have never met a person in such dire need to prove himself, and to me of all people. hmmmmmmm…

I’ll tell you this much flipflop — I lost respect for evolution after I took a look at the math and the probability of it, a long time ago. I don’t care much about the science and the fossils or cells or any other thing(buncha non-sense to me anyway …(theoretical physics can prove all kinds of bullshit, the numbers don’t lie). I like to look at the numbers PERIOD. The numbers are highly in favor of evolution as a complete pile of utter horseshit!

merlin

merlin1 · September 28, 2007, 3:04am

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
merlin wrote:
Well done FreedomFighterXL!

-100 extra credit points for you
-A free lifetime subscription to “Reality Check”
-unlimited supply of playboy bunnies for your complete DEBUNKIFICATION(new word)… of anything the fitnessqueefa copied & pasted from “TalkOrigins.Arcive”

Outstanding Partna!

Carry on…

merlin

-200 points for your rampent dick sucking
-a free subscription to “I got my my ass handed to me on T-Nation” magazine

finally, a challenge for you to answer my one single question of you. If a singular global flood created the grand canyon why does it have oxbows? please include empirical evidence not just thought games.

Not so outstanding

please don’t carry on…

[/quote]
Can you say fucked in the ass? This guy raped you.

Again don’t ask me questions about religion. Ask someone religious. What ever you think about oxbows is fine by me, and whatever creationists think about a flood is fine with me. I don’t agree or disagree with either one of ya. Not my area. You TWO fight it out.

This is a weakness I’ve seen on the side of evolution …you ASSUME those that don’t believe in the bullshit evolution theory are religious or creationists. You NEED this so you can have an argument against for evolution against creationists(ha ha ha, doesn’t work so well with people like me who don’t believe in neither of that shit). Again I’m not one of them (I belong to no church). Argue with them(the churches, hell i may even agree with ya) Fitnessqueefa has the same tactic, try to make people who don’t believe in evolution or creationism …>>>believe in “creationism” so we can argue faults with creationism to help support evolution. Horrible argument and tactic(how stupid are you?). You failed miserably!

You are dumb as fuck flipflop, but you still have time. Hopefully you’ll meet a woman someday that slaps the shit out of you, then you’ll start making some logical decisions to finish out your stay here at planet earth.

merlin

Flop_Hat · September 28, 2007, 3:37am

[quote]merlin wrote:
Flop Hat wrote:
merlin wrote:
Well done FreedomFighterXL!

-100 extra credit points for you
-A free lifetime subscription to “Reality Check”
-unlimited supply of playboy bunnies for your complete DEBUNKIFICATION(new word)… of anything the fitnessqueefa copied & pasted from “TalkOrigins.Arcive”

Outstanding Partna!

Carry on…

merlin

-200 points for your rampent dick sucking
-a free subscription to “I got my my ass handed to me on T-Nation” magazine

finally, a challenge for you to answer my one single question of you. If a singular global flood created the grand canyon why does it have oxbows? please include empirical evidence not just thought games.

Not so outstanding

please don’t carry on…

Can you say fucked in the ass? This guy raped you.

Again don’t ask me questions about religion. Ask someone religious. What ever you think about oxbows is fine by me, and whatever creationists think about a flood is fine with me. I don’t agree or disagree with either one of ya. Not my area. You TWO fight it out.

This is a weakness I’ve seen on the side of evolution …you ASSUME those that don’t believe in the bullshit evolution theory are religious or creationists. You NEED this so you can have an argument against for evolution against creationists(ha ha ha, doesn’t work so well with people like me who don’t believe in neither of that shit). Again I’m not one of them (I belong to no church). Argue with them(the churches, hell i may even agree with ya) Fitnessqueefa has the same tactic, try to make people who don’t believe in evolution or creationism …>>>believe in “creationism” so we can argue faults with creationism to help support evolution. Horrible argument and tactic(how stupid are you?). You failed miserably!

You are dumb as fuck flipflop, but you still have time. Hopefully you’ll meet a woman someday that slaps the shit out of you, then you’ll start making some logical decisions to finish out your stay here at planet earth.

merlin
[/quote]

There is no alternative to evolution. There are no competing theories. There isn’t even anything on the drawing board that challenges evolution. Creationist are the only people who claim to have a counter and the entire creationist argument is based on the logical fallacy that if they prove evolution wrong then creationism wins.

You can say that you have no opinion or that you don’t believe in either, however it is the exact equivalent of saying you don’t have an opinion on gravity, quantum mechanics, relativity, or plate tectonics. If there were two options on explaining why things fall; one was newtons gravity and the other was intelligent falling. Just because you don’t understand the physics of gravity and just because you don’t have an opinion doesn’t make them equally valid, nor does science have to give both equal consideration. Even when problems were found with newtons theory, intelligent falling was still wrong. It was replaced by relativity. It is the empirical evidence for the theory and the predictions made by the theory that counts.

So, anyone can post 50,000,000,000,000 statements questioning evolution, but unless they offer up a workable theory that makes predictions about how life on earth works, and is backed by empirical evidence, it doesn’t make a fucking difference.

The sad thing is so much of what is posted to refute evolution is so dated. Creationist have to work double time to keep up with advances in geology, biology, and astronomy and still try to turn it it to nonsense. Kind of makes you feel sorry for them. I also feel sorry for people who aren’t scientifically literate enough to take a stand, one way or the other.

merlin1 · September 28, 2007, 3:52am

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:

So merlin, since you and freedom fighter seem to want to debunk evolution why don’t you also tell everyone what you think of quantum dynamics, relativity, and their implications for the existence of a young earth. Since there is no easy way to cut and paste this I’m guessing I will be waiting a while. [/quote]

Let me guess here …you want to argue that gravity does not exist right? Fine …either way, whatever floats your boat Einstein. I might even agree with you. I havn’t drawn a conclusion on that one yet – if that was your intended argument.

I think you need to take a closer look at the relationship between man and the external world …just for fun. Might help ya!

merlin

gotaknife · September 28, 2007, 4:34am

FreedomFighterXL’s pasted article seems to suffer from the same problems as the one merlin posted a little while ago. The Author doesn’t understand the theory of evolution by natural selection. I’ll clear up a few parts (hopefully) and if there are any specifics you want to debate then let me know.

I’ll tackle the mutation/genetics part because this is what I know best.
“The only instance evolutionary biologists give of “useful mutation” is the disease known as sickle cell anemia. In this, the hemoglobin molecule, which serves to carry oxygen in the blood, is damaged as a result of mutation, and undergoes a structural change. As a result of this, the hemoglobin molecule’s ability to carry oxygen is seriously impaired.
People with sickle cell anemia suffer increasing respiratory difficulties for this reason. However, this example of mutation, which is discussed under blood disorders in medical textbooks, is strangely evaluated by some evolutionary biologists as a “useful mutation.” They say that the partial immunity to malaria by those with the illness is a “gift” of evolution. Using the same logic, one could say that, since people born with genetic leg paralysis are unable to walk and so are saved from being killed in traffic accidents, therefore genetic leg paralysis is a “useful genetic feature.” This logic is clearly totally unfounded.”
-The conclusion here is confusing but I think I get what they are trying to say. Sickle-cell anemia is caused by a mutation, this is true, but if you only possess 1 copy of the mutant gene (called a carrier) then you will have almost normal function AND reduced severity of the Malarial infection. So in a region with high incidences of malaria, carriers will have a selective advantage over those without. It is true that if you mate with another carrier 1/4 of your offspring will have sickle cell disease but as long as the pro’s outweigh the cons, so to speak, then you would expect the frequency of the mutated gene to increase.
There are a myriad of examples of recent mutations that have positive effects in all species that are well studied. Ill stick to human examples because they are generally more interesting to people. Lactose tolerance is an interesting example because there are a number of different mutations that occurred in different populations of humans between 9-3000 years ago. The earliest mutation is the European variant that appears to be 9,000 years old and allows for almost “full” lactose digestion. The reason this mutant is so interesting is that it appears that this mutant was under massive positive selection, with offspring who carried the mutated sequence (the mutation is not in the gene but in the promoter, or “switch”) estimated to be over 10x more likely to pass on there genes (If you want to know how the strength of selection acting on a gene can be estimated just let me know, this formed part of my thesis). Originally it was known that there were other populations that could digest lactose to varying degrees but they did not have this “European” mutation. However further studies revealed that there were a range of different mutations effecting lactose production present in African populations and these mutations varied in age and effectiveness. What this shows is multiple mutations have occurred that allow Adults to digest lactose, which is of huge advantage in terms of avoiding sickness and obtaining extra calories.
Another mutant gene that may be a “positive mutation” is the mutation that causes huntington’s disease. This is some pretty recent research and I am not sure if anyone is interested but let me know if you are and ill post.
There is more to come but I have to go. Back soon

merlin1 · September 28, 2007, 5:07am

OK Flop Hat, bunk all this BS on evolution, creationism, or a default answer. How about this. Since you deny creationism as probable(do you?) and leave evolution as the only viable option left(even if you think it is bunk) …then offer your own ideas. you mean to tell me someone as smart as yourself will just accept this crapola because its the best theory going …shit its the only theory going? Creationism’ I guess would be the other option going to through the mainstream public if you consider that a theory or belief–or whatever you want to call it.

Why don’t you give me your thoughts on GOD, creationism, evolution, your own personal theory, what have you.

Enough with what everyone else thinks …you come along these lines, than you’ll be in my dept. I’ve never accepted answers just because they were default or better than the other concocted bullshit. where’s YOUR mind at. Who gives a fuck about Einstein or Darwin, Plato, (insert the name of your favorite theoretical genius or scientist) …huh?

I have a few ideas, nothing popular, nothing even really realistic in todays modalities. If I get myself thinking four dimensionally …then some goofy shit should start to pop. Almost impossible to do though. I don’t know anyone that can pull this off. I’ve tried, you can almost get there by thinking time/space(try to make reason out of this insane thought of “Time Space Continuum” and trying to rationalize it …near impossible. You find me the fucker than can pull this off, you’ll have someone with about a 550 IQ and the answers to the unknown/

merlin

Zap_Branigan · September 28, 2007, 12:01pm

[quote]merlin wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
The Global Flood, a scientific impossiblity

Prove it!

I have done research on this and have SCIENTIST that say it IS possible and right around the right time… 4000 years ago.
…[/quote]

That is just silly.

Zap_Branigan · September 28, 2007, 12:03pm

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
… On that note, who brought the pubic lice? What kind of thinking was that?
[/quote]

Uhhh, what are you trying to tell us? (j/k)

Zap_Branigan · September 28, 2007, 12:09pm

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
orion wrote:
Flop Hat wrote:
FreedomFighterXL wrote:
Is the talk origins thing you pasted the one thing you would like to see rebutted FD?

I don’t want to speak on FD’s behalf, but I think we each had a question for merlin. She wanted to know where all the water from the flood went. I wanted to know how a global flood created the grand canyon, specifically how the flood created Oxbows, with cites of modern examples of this happening. If someone could answer those two questions as a start, I would be happy to discuss other problems with young earth creationism.

That is pretty easy.

God made it so, to test your faith.

The same way he buried “dinosaur” bones.

I was reading one of the lost books of the bible, called the book of Sauropoda. It stated that Satan buried the dino bones to fool people. God tried to stop him, saying it would be unfair to people who actually study the earth.

Unfortunately, god had lost a fiddle playing competition to Satan earlier in the day and according to fiddle playing competition rules, god had to let Satan do whatever he wanted for the rest of the day. God’s loss in a game checkers explains the cosmic background radiation and it was a poker loss that let Satan develop the wildly inaccurate carbon 14 dating.

It seems all of modern science is based on Satanic lies. Exempt of course is any science that develops new types of TV’s, computers, or entertainment. [/quote]

Sounds like a good book. Where can I get it?

FreedomFighterXL · September 28, 2007, 5:17pm

Hang on, I’ll refute the current responses in a minute.

But a word to the wise merlin, I never said I was even close to finished.

Sifu · September 28, 2007, 5:37pm

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:

Here’s one for you: The Global Flood, a scientific impossiblity, of course, if you consider that not to be misinterpreted…[/quote]

There are stories of a great flood in many cultures. There are some academics who say that some of the stories in the bible may actually be based upon oral traditions that are much older than the bible.

On the history channel last week they had an interesting bit science relating to the biblical story of the great flood. What they think happened is a massive meteor smashed into the Indian ocean off of the coast of Madagascar. They have found a massive depression in the sea floor that is consistant with such an impact.

This impact would have caused Tsunami and vaporized massive amounts of water. So there may be some truth to the story.

merlin1 · September 28, 2007, 8:05pm

[quote]FreedomFighterXL wrote:
Hang on, I’ll refute the current responses in a minute.

But a word to the wise merlin, I never said I was even close to finished. [/quote]

I’m outta this thread for now, as far as you SCIENCE nerds are concearned …just kidding. Take over man, roll with it. You know more about this than I ever will.

I wouldn’t mind getting Flop Hat’s personal ideas though. Anyone can argue somebody elses theories. How about HIS own? These I’d like to hear. I have my own. I just think the discussion should be around our OWN thoughts. We already know what OTHER people think.

merlin

merlin1 · September 28, 2007, 8:08pm

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sounds like a good book. Where can I get it?[/quote]

This is a trainwreck of a thread ZAP. Was the political thread you were in TOO boring? You don’t want to be in here you’ll get amnesia. You are wise beyond your years ZAP, do yourself a favor and go make fun of some democrats …its healthier for you. Besides evolution is kinda boring anyway …a bunch of monkeys, floods, and holes in the wall …not good times for political pundits.

merlin

FreedomFighterXL · September 28, 2007, 8:59pm

[quote]merlin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sounds like a good book. Where can I get it?

This is a trainwreck of a thread ZAP. Was the political thread you were in TOO boring? You don’t want to be in here you’ll get amnesia. You are wise beyond your years ZAP, do yourself a favor and go make fun of some democrats …its healthier for you. Besides evolution is kinda boring anyway …a bunch of monkeys, floods, and holes in the wall …not good times for political pundits.

merlin[/quote]

I guess you’re right. This thread was originally created so one guy could get some idea for why people are skeptical of claims that random mutations and the like can caused such drastic complexity.

Now it’s just a train wreck.

But hey, since I promised more things to come… ; P

Flop_Hat · September 29, 2007, 12:18am

[quote]merlin wrote:
OK Flop Hat, bunk all this BS on evolution, creationism, or a default answer. How about this. Since you deny creationism as probable(do you?) and leave evolution as the only viable option left(even if you think it is bunk) …then offer your own ideas. you mean to tell me someone as smart as yourself will just accept this crapola because its the best theory going …shit its the only theory going? Creationism’ I guess would be the other option going to through the mainstream public if you consider that a theory or belief–or whatever you want to call it.

Why don’t you give me your thoughts on GOD, creationism, evolution, your own personal theory, what have you.

Enough with what everyone else thinks …you come along these lines, than you’ll be in my dept. I’ve never accepted answers just because they were default or better than the other concocted bullshit. where’s YOUR mind at. Who gives a fuck about Einstein or Darwin, Plato, (insert the name of your favorite theoretical genius or scientist) …huh?

I have a few ideas, nothing popular, nothing even really realistic in todays modalities. If I get myself thinking four dimensionally …then some goofy shit should start to pop. Almost impossible to do though. I don’t know anyone that can pull this off. I’ve tried, you can almost get there by thinking time/space(try to make reason out of this insane thought of “Time Space Continuum” and trying to rationalize it …near impossible. You find me the fucker than can pull this off, you’ll have someone with about a 550 IQ and the answers to the unknown/

merlin[/quote]

I will do my best to explain to you what I think about all of this and why I think your stance of “I don’t know which is right therefore they are both equal” is wrong.

I will also try to explain why evolution is a bit more than “the best thing going” and will also try to touch on extra dimensions in the universe and the inability to know both the position and velocity of an electron or any other sub atomic particle. I mention the latter two ideas because it seems the creationist have a hard time talking about them. Too hard maybe?

I will do all of this solely in the attempt to show you the difference between science and pseudoscience. You will have to give me some time though. I have a lot to do for school right now and don’t have a lot of time to devote to your and freedom fighters scientific education. It would help if both of you would just take an intro biology/geology/astronomy/physics/chemistry class. But I guess that would interfere with visiting creationist websites that, in spite of the sheer volume of information, have failed to publish a single peer reviewed paper.

Be back soon.

Flop_Hat · September 29, 2007, 12:22am

[quote]FreedomFighterXL wrote:
merlin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sounds like a good book. Where can I get it?

This is a trainwreck of a thread ZAP. Was the political thread you were in TOO boring? You don’t want to be in here you’ll get amnesia. You are wise beyond your years ZAP, do yourself a favor and go make fun of some democrats …its healthier for you. Besides evolution is kinda boring anyway …a bunch of monkeys, floods, and holes in the wall …not good times for political pundits.

merlin

I guess you’re right. This thread was originally created so one guy could get some idea for why people are skeptical of claims that random mutations and the like can caused such drastic complexity.

Now it’s just a train wreck.

But hey, since I promised more things to come… ; P
[/quote]

Of course its only a train wreck because of loony creationist who post incredibly long cut and paste post, that were never intellectually honest and have been passed by years ago.

I can’t wait for those things to come. More challenges to evolution that just can’t seem to get published in a peer reviewed journal

merlin1 · September 29, 2007, 1:19am

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
It would help if both of you would just take an intro biology/geology/astronomy/physics/chemistry class. [/quote]

Already took all those classes in college, except for geology/astronomy. Took a couple biology classes, chemistry up to organic, and I dunno what 3 or 4 physics classes was the requirement back them. None of those are going to explain theory! Theoretical physics and quantum physics may help.

Now what the fuck good are these basic classes you’re talking about going to do in explaining or understanding theory and its development?

You’re still in school, so you should be looking into this. I wasn’t concearned at all with basic geology and evolution in my day, doesn’t do much for my area of math and engineering. A basic bio class isn’t going to do anything for your understanding of the unknown.

I think you need to take some senior level classes and the n go to work and see how these classes are pretty much useless for intelligence. This is just a background, genius and answers are found in the foreground. That is what counts. Just because I took statics/dynamics/thermodynamics doesn’t help anyone understand how to repair a refrigerator. You may know how it works, but you don’t know how to fix it.

I want to know, how are you going to fix the holes in evolutionary theory?

merlin

Flop_Hat · September 29, 2007, 4:42am

[quote]merlin wrote:
Flop Hat wrote:
It would help if both of you would just take an intro biology/geology/astronomy/physics/chemistry class.

Already took all those classes in college, except for geology/astronomy. Took a couple biology classes, chemistry up to organic, and I dunno what 3 or 4 physics classes was the requirement back them. None of those are going to explain theory! Theoretical physics and quantum physics may help.[/quote]

What do you mean they don’t explain theory? That’s all there is is theory. Theory is just the model used to explain everything we know in science. Please tell me one thing you learned in your biology and chemistry class that wasn’t based on modern scientific theory?

You don’t have to be a theoretical physicist to understand the evidence for the existence of electrons. You don’t need a 4000 level evolutionary biology course to understand that it is the best explanation for the evidence. Did you actually go to school?

Statements like this make me doubt that you have ever taken a science class. I don’t think you even understand what a scientific theory is.

There is no doubt that if you took any of these classes, you certainly didn’t pay attention to anything. The point of taking them, is that not nearly as much is as unknown as you seem to think. Furthermore, without the basic understanding you have no chance of “understanding the unknown” After 150 years of study and research maybe there is some “known” to evolution that you could learn?

ummm… I live with a biologist. She has taken the senior level courses. She says that you are an idiot and that I am wasting my time trying to explain anything to a person who knows less about biology then our gerbils. She might be right.

I’m not sure how the refrigerator analogy fits with anything. So let me get this straight, studying ways to extrapolate information from a population, studying the forces that act on subatomic molecules, and studying the physics of heat and pressure on systems did not prepare you for the manufacture of a large complicated piece of machinery? surprising.

When I was a kid I took an EMT class, an A&P class, and an electrician course, but still I can’t reanimate dead animals. Shocking. Anyway, how does that relate to having a better understanding evolution after a basic biology course?

I won’t be “fixing” any of these so called “holes” in biology. People like my wife and gotaknife are working on the next generation of discoveries. And every year that passes, as more and more information is gathered, people who believe in creation or who are biological “agnostics” will look more and more like flat earthers, or witch doctors.

XOXOXO

FreedomFighterXL · September 29, 2007, 4:56am

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
merlin wrote:
OK Flop Hat, bunk all this BS on evolution, creationism, or a default answer. How about this. Since you deny creationism as probable(do you?) and leave evolution as the only viable option left(even if you think it is bunk) …then offer your own ideas. you mean to tell me someone as smart as yourself will just accept this crapola because its the best theory going …shit its the only theory going? Creationism’ I guess would be the other option going to through the mainstream public if you consider that a theory or belief–or whatever you want to call it.

Why don’t you give me your thoughts on GOD, creationism, evolution, your own personal theory, what have you.

Enough with what everyone else thinks …you come along these lines, than you’ll be in my dept. I’ve never accepted answers just because they were default or better than the other concocted bullshit. where’s YOUR mind at. Who gives a fuck about Einstein or Darwin, Plato, (insert the name of your favorite theoretical genius or scientist) …huh?

I have a few ideas, nothing popular, nothing even really realistic in todays modalities. If I get myself thinking four dimensionally …then some goofy shit should start to pop. Almost impossible to do though. I don’t know anyone that can pull this off. I’ve tried, you can almost get there by thinking time/space(try to make reason out of this insane thought of “Time Space Continuum” and trying to rationalize it …near impossible. You find me the fucker than can pull this off, you’ll have someone with about a 550 IQ and the answers to the unknown/

merlin

I will do my best to explain to you what I think about all of this and why I think your stance of “I don’t know which is right therefore they are both equal” is wrong.

I will also try to explain why evolution is a bit more than “the best thing going” and will also try to touch on extra dimensions in the universe and the inability to know both the position and velocity of an electron or any other sub atomic particle. I mention the latter two ideas because it seems the creationist have a hard time talking about them. Too hard maybe?

I will do all of this solely in the attempt to show you the difference between science and pseudoscience. You will have to give me some time though. I have a lot to do for school right now and don’t have a lot of time to devote to your and freedom fighters scientific education. It would help if both of you would just take an intro biology/geology/astronomy/physics/chemistry class. But I guess that would interfere with visiting creationist websites that, in spite of the sheer volume of information, have failed to publish a single peer reviewed paper.

Be back soon.[/quote]

That’s okay. We know plenty on biology already to think for ourselves thank you very much.

But what does this whole thing with sub atomic particles have to do with evolution? Isn’t that physics?

FreedomFighterXL · September 29, 2007, 5:03am

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
merlin wrote:
Flop Hat wrote:
It would help if both of you would just take an intro biology/geology/astronomy/physics/chemistry class.