Evolution is Wrong?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You pride yourself on being a scientist, and rational thought. That is fine. There is absolutely no way for irrational beliefs to be debated rationally.

I see we agree on theology…

Faith is not a rational concept. It is predicated on believing in something not seen. How can it be defended in a rational debate?

But does irrational belief automatically deduct from one’s IQ, or subject them to public ridicule? Seems that is the case here. [/quote]

Irrational belief does not deduct from ones IQ. Believing completely made up pseudoscience doesn’t deduct from ones IQ. However, as soon as you use your irrational belief or pseudoscience to make claims about the observable world, those claims are subject to the same scrutiny and ridicule as any other idea.

The real problem here is not that someone insulted you for being religious. Every post on the evolution side that I’ve read has been as respectful as any post I’ve ever read on T-Nation. The same can’t be said of you and merlin.

The real problem is that it seems that we insulted the implications of your religion, it’s testable implications. If your god needs some unexplained gap or process to exist, if the point of his existence was to sit around and watch the earth cool for a billion years than “breath” life into a short chain of nucleotides, then it must be a pretty pointless religion.

I believe that you are angry because almost nothing in the observable universe needs a god to be explained. Without that need, you have trouble with the dissonance between what you have been told and believed for so long and what is actually there. It’s called cognitive dissonance and it’s a well understood effect.

It’s what caused the heaven’s gate people to off themselves, it’s why Jehovah’s witnesses still go to church even though their leaders have incorrectly predicted the end of the world several times, and it’s why my highly educated Mormon friends will say and believe anything to justify the lack of evidence for the book of Mormon in South America is spite of the fact that it should be everywhere.

It turns out that Literal interpretation of the Judeo-Christian “god” hypothesis is seen as almost certainly false. If indeed a god does exist, he must not do much at all. There is certainly no room for miracles, resurrections, smiting, or any other activities that were so important before the advent of modern science and video cameras, even though any such miracle would greatly increase the number of people that worship him and he had no problems showing off in the past.

I’m sorry that you took my attack on your views as bigotry. I said before, I’ve often enjoyed reading you post. I would not have said that if I thought you were an idiot. However, your IQ and merlins IQ, play no part in the validity of your assumptions. There is plenty of room for “I don’t know” in science. There isn’t much room for “I don’t know” so it must be god.

FitnessDiva,

You did say that religion should be done away with. I think your views could be classed as a sort of solipsism, where your assumptions exclude any outside alternatives.

While closure might be appropriate in a mathematical system, such logic should not be applied to humans. People are not equations.

Carry on!! Good debate (you and RJ)!!

[quote]rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You pride yourself on being a scientist, and rational thought. That is fine. There is absolutely no way for irrational beliefs to be debated rationally.

I see we agree on theology…

Faith is not a rational concept. It is predicated on believing in something not seen. How can it be defended in a rational debate?

But does irrational belief automatically deduct from one’s IQ, or subject them to public ridicule? Seems that is the case here. [/quote]

If you want a serious answer, we have little to fear from people that now that their “belief” is irrational.

I am more concerned with people who mistake “believing” for “knowing”, no matter what they “know”.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
People on here assume all opinions are equal. They are not. What is demonstrated here is that those who don’t ‘believe’ in evolution don’t understand, therefore think no one else does. People who do understand it know that it is the only viable theory.

Well, until 1900 or so, everyone thought that Newton had it down. Then someone asked: “What happens when we get near the speed of light?” Then someone else asked: “What are all these sub-atomic particles and why do they behave so strangely?”[/quote]

I’m pretty sure that soon after Newton unveiled his theory, people knew there were problems with it. It is not as if Einstein was just woke up and invented a new theory. There were many experiments who’s data was not fully explained by Newton’s laws. They didn’t know why, but they new something was wrong. Einstein just put it together. Same for Quantum dynamics. They knew that there were problems early on at the atomic level, they were just not sure how to tackle them.

In any case if evolution must change, I hope it is in my life so I can be a part of a scientific revolution. That would be awesome. I don’t think physics is going to be doing much until CERN gets the Large Hadron Collider up and running.

In physics, the theoretical ideas often come first then wait for the instruments or observations to be made. Damn Newton and his hypothothetico-deductive reasoning.

Do you have a book or website with some of this information? I’ve found a couple of neat sites with some good information. I also plan on stopping by and chatting with the professor who teaches the class on the philosophy of science at my school next week.

Some quick reading on a couple of philosophy websites showed that not everyone agrees on the limits of science or are so sure that the precepts you mention are problem other than between two competing equal theories.

There is a lot of good stuff to ponder on this subject, although I’m not sure how much merit it has. The Greeks showed us the limit of pure reasoning. Science has given us the best tools to understand the universe yet. If philosophers find logical problems with or limits to science, I find it far more likely that it is the mind of the philosopher that is limited than the tool he is evaluating. As Haldane’s Law states:
The Universe is not only queerer than we imagine;
it is queerer than we CAN imagine.

“God made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom.” -unknown-

[quote]orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You pride yourself on being a scientist, and rational thought. That is fine. There is absolutely no way for irrational beliefs to be debated rationally.

I see we agree on theology…

Faith is not a rational concept. It is predicated on believing in something not seen. How can it be defended in a rational debate?

But does irrational belief automatically deduct from one’s IQ, or subject them to public ridicule? Seems that is the case here.

If you want a serious answer, we have little to fear from people that now that their “belief” is irrational.[/quote]

This is obvious bullshit. You are telling me that people don’t knowingly justify killing, murdering, land stealing on their faith. What is Faith, just another way of saying I believe in something illogical and you can’t change my mind. Suicide bombers, who “know” that their beliefs are illogical (based on faith) blow themselves up almost every day. Show me where a crazed dogmatic evolutionist ever blew himself up. I guess once you decide to believe in one illogical thing there is no reason to stop.

Any knowledge can be used for evil ends, science included. Any individual can be evil, scientist included. However, I dare you to show me any greater motivator for violence, killing, and evil bigger than the faith in some higher power.

If Science is nothing more than a silly human foible that has no real insight into the universe, and I am just monumentally confused about what I “know” versus what I believe, I still will be proud of the fact that in 200 years science has done more for mankind then religion was able to do in 3000 years. What a great error to make.

God could have gotten in on this whole science trend in the bible if he would have only seen it coming. A single verse like “wash your hands after shitting” or “don’t piss and shit in the water you drink” would have saved more lives in a year than all of the miracles recorded in the history of the catholic church. I guess he forgot, or wanted to kill people, or whatever you have to tell yourself to have faith.

What do I know, I’m just a bigoted, Neanderthalish, mental midget, with limited though capacity, and a penchant for picking on Mensa members.

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You pride yourself on being a scientist, and rational thought. That is fine. There is absolutely no way for irrational beliefs to be debated rationally.

I see we agree on theology…

Faith is not a rational concept. It is predicated on believing in something not seen. How can it be defended in a rational debate?

But does irrational belief automatically deduct from one’s IQ, or subject them to public ridicule? Seems that is the case here.

If you want a serious answer, we have little to fear from people that now that their “belief” is irrational.

This is obvious bullshit. You are telling me that people don’t knowingly justify killing, murdering, land stealing on their faith. What is Faith, just another way of saying I believe in something illogical and you can’t change my mind. Suicide bombers, who “know” that their beliefs are illogical (based on faith) blow themselves up almost every day. Show me where a crazed dogmatic evolutionist ever blew himself up. I guess once you decide to believe in one illogical thing there is no reason to stop.

I am more concerned with people who mistake “believing” for “knowing”, no matter what they “know”.

Any knowledge can be used for evil ends, science included. Any individual can be evil, scientist included. However, I dare you to show me any greater motivator for violence, killing, and evil bigger than the faith in some higher power.

If Science is nothing more than a silly human foible that has no real insight into the universe, and I am just monumentally confused about what I “know” versus what I believe, I still will be proud of the fact that in 200 years science has done more for mankind then religion was able to do in 3000 years. What a great error to make.

God could have gotten in on this whole science trend in the bible if he would have only seen it coming. A single verse like “wash your hands after shitting” or “don’t piss and shit in the water you drink” would have saved more lives in a year than all of the miracles recorded in the history of the catholic church. I guess he forgot, or wanted to kill people, or whatever you have to tell yourself to have faith.

What do I know, I’m just a bigoted, Neanderthalish, mental midget, with limited though capacity, and a penchant for picking on Mensa members.

[/quote]

See, now I get an idea what RJ actually means.

Since it is the first time I´m in the redneck hillibilly camp…

Yeeehaw, and suck my dick!

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:

God could have gotten in on this whole science trend in the bible if he would have only seen it coming. A single verse like “wash your hands after shitting” or “don’t piss and shit in the water you drink” would have saved more lives in a year than all of the miracles recorded in the history of the catholic church. I guess he forgot, or wanted to kill people, or whatever you have to tell yourself to have faith.
[/quote]

Gold.

I am not sure if anyone is interested anymore but I had a look at the website merlin was talking about (http://www.creationscience.com/) and I am happy to explain many of the “holes” in evolution that the Author tries to point out.
A few quotes from the “natural selection” chapter and my explanations:
“natural selection cannot produce new genes; it selects only among preexisting characteristics. As the word �??selection�?? implies, variations are reduced, not increased.”
-This is a misunderstanding. Natural selection is a selective pressure so of course it cannot produce new genes. “New” genes are produced when “old” genes mutate or when gene/chromosome/genome duplications occur. A duplication event is where an error in the copy process doubles up and copies the same part twice or it can result from the entire genome being copied. Thereby there is now twice as many genes. These events are important, evolutionarily, because one copy can continue to function whilst the other can accumulate mutations. Furthermore “new” genes can arise from the “junk DNA” that is present in copious amounts on the genome. As such the genetic variation in a population is in flux, not merely decreasing.

“The variations Darwin observed among finches on different Galapagos islands is another example of natural selection producing micro- (not macro-) evolution.”

  • This is a bizarre statement because Darwin’s “famous finches” are all separate species, sharing recent common ancestor. Indeed this type of speciation is predicted by evolutionary theory. I will be happy to explain this further, just ask.

It is not a very good site and doesn’t mention the only potential exception that seems to go against the theory of evolution that I am aware of- what one fellow called the “WTF they’re getting bigger problem” (happy to explain if people are interested).

[quote]orion wrote:
Flop Hat wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:
orion wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You pride yourself on being a scientist, and rational thought. That is fine. There is absolutely no way for irrational beliefs to be debated rationally.

I see we agree on theology…

Faith is not a rational concept. It is predicated on believing in something not seen. How can it be defended in a rational debate?

But does irrational belief automatically deduct from one’s IQ, or subject them to public ridicule? Seems that is the case here.

If you want a serious answer, we have little to fear from people that now that their “belief” is irrational.

This is obvious bullshit. You are telling me that people don’t knowingly justify killing, murdering, land stealing on their faith. What is Faith, just another way of saying I believe in something illogical and you can’t change my mind. Suicide bombers, who “know” that their beliefs are illogical (based on faith) blow themselves up almost every day. Show me where a crazed dogmatic evolutionist ever blew himself up. I guess once you decide to believe in one illogical thing there is no reason to stop.

I am more concerned with people who mistake “believing” for “knowing”, no matter what they “know”.

Any knowledge can be used for evil ends, science included. Any individual can be evil, scientist included. However, I dare you to show me any greater motivator for violence, killing, and evil bigger than the faith in some higher power.

If Science is nothing more than a silly human foible that has no real insight into the universe, and I am just monumentally confused about what I “know” versus what I believe, I still will be proud of the fact that in 200 years science has done more for mankind then religion was able to do in 3000 years. What a great error to make.

God could have gotten in on this whole science trend in the bible if he would have only seen it coming. A single verse like “wash your hands after shitting” or “don’t piss and shit in the water you drink” would have saved more lives in a year than all of the miracles recorded in the history of the catholic church. I guess he forgot, or wanted to kill people, or whatever you have to tell yourself to have faith.

What do I know, I’m just a bigoted, Neanderthalish, mental midget, with limited though capacity, and a penchant for picking on Mensa members.

See, now I get an idea what RJ actually means.

Since it is the first time I´m in the redneck hillibilly camp…

Yeeehaw, and suck my dick!

[/quote]

Damn, if only I had an idea of what I “know” versus what I believe I “know”, or do I need to believe what I “know” but not what I don’t “know”? fuck!

See that’s what makes you and RJ so much better than me, you “know” what you “believe” and you believe what you “know” but you don’t “know” what you beleive or believe what you believe.

I tell you what, why don’t you and RJ continue to suck each others dick, while I sort out what exactly it is that gives any meaning to that amazing post.

Welcome to camp redneck, they needed the help.

[quote]gotaknife wrote:
I am not sure if anyone is interested anymore but I had a look at the website merlin was talking about (http://www.creationscience.com/) and I am happy to explain many of the “holes” in evolution that the Author tries to point out.
A few quotes from the “natural selection” chapter and my explanations:
“natural selection cannot produce new genes; it selects only among preexisting characteristics. As the word �??selection�?? implies, variations are reduced, not increased.”
-This is a misunderstanding. Natural selection is a selective pressure so of course it cannot produce new genes. “New” genes are produced when “old” genes mutate or when gene/chromosome/genome duplications occur. A duplication event is where an error in the copy process doubles up and copies the same part twice or it can result from the entire genome being copied. Thereby there is now twice as many genes. These events are important, evolutionarily, because one copy can continue to function whilst the other can accumulate mutations. Furthermore “new” genes can arise from the “junk DNA” that is present in copious amounts on the genome. As such the genetic variation in a population is in flux, not merely decreasing.

“The variations Darwin observed among finches on different Galapagos islands is another example of natural selection producing micro- (not macro-) evolution.”

  • This is a bizarre statement because Darwin’s “famous finches” are all separate species, sharing recent common ancestor. Indeed this type of speciation is predicted by evolutionary theory. I will be happy to explain this further, just ask.

It is not a very good site and doesn’t mention the only potential exception that seems to go against the theory of evolution that I am aware of- what one fellow called the “WTF they’re getting bigger problem” (happy to explain if people are interested).
[/quote]

Gotaknife, unfortunately I don’t think anyone is interested in learning or researching anything.

I would be interested in the “WTF they’re getting bigger problem” if you can explain it or point me to a good site I would love to see it.

As I’ve found with previous creationists they never consider facts that are presented to them or rebuttals to their “unanswerable” questions. They just disregard those things. They also never acknowledge debates that have occurred where the creationist was completely trounced (Saladin V. Gish 1988). They just continue to repeat the same claims.

"Here is the essay that started it all here. Enjoy!

Nothing is more important to a persons understanding of life and living than his own answers to the three great questions: where am I from?; who am I?; where am I going? This is an important issue for the last 100 years, for a system of belief, known as evolution has permeated our society and way of thinking. I believe in creation, not evolution. I believe either system must be accepted by faith, for neither fits the scientific model. For either to be a theory, they must be repeatable events, observable events. Creation as taught in the Bible was only observed by God and His angels. Evolution by definition, happened when no one was around, and then continued so slowly that no one would be able to discern that evolution occurred, therefore it is also a non-observable event. I believe that whichever belief you hold, when completely understood, will guide your thinking and behavior and ultimately determine your destiny.

When speaking of creation, I define creation as the definite and deliberate act of God causing the beginning of life and material existence of all things in the universe having taken place in a literal six-day period. Evolution I define as the random gathering of individual molecules and elements that by random, chance accumulation formed the material world, and through random, chance events governed by natural laws eventually caused a collection of molecules to become a living organism which in turn progressed through another series of random, chance events expressed over hundreds of millions of years governed by survival of the fittest to eventually appear as life as we know it.

" Where did I come from" starts the argument. If created by God, then we are here for a purpose, a part of a divine plan that God has for all souls in the universe. Our original ancestors disobeyed God in the Garden of Eden and became separated from God because of their sins. God instituted the idea of sacrificing an innocent animal to take the place of death for the persons who sinned. The death of an innocent savior, Jesus Christ, fulfilled this need for reconciliation toward God.

If we evolved, then we are here by chance and for no other reason. This means that there is no divine plan for mankind along with no moral absolutes. If the evolutionist believes in God, it can’t be a very powerful God if he had no hand in our very beginning and probably has no idea what our future holds.

" Who am I? ", deals with today. With faith in a creator God, I recognize that I owe my very existence to him along with my eternal destiny. In times past, God spoke to us through his prophets until the time of the Bible actually being written and then compiled as we have it today. Many times it is written that God’s word is eternal, not conditional, and therefore is applicable to life today.

If evolution is true, then there is no objective standard to follow at any time. Morals become relative and, humanity becomes hypocritical when it comes to obeying laws. A new moral standard will arise someday and put out the old out-moded one. Mankind will be on one big ego trip psychologically, thinking itself to be better and smarter and more in touch with reality than any previous generations. Life itself would lose all important meaning with only instant gratification the driving force. Any logic-based system of morality would have no feet to stand on, for it would be based only on argument, not divine revelation.

" Where am I going? ", is the final argument. God told us that the only way to be with him at death is to base our salvation on the fact that Jesus Christ died in our place on the cross, taking the penalty for our sins, a penalty that we honestly deserve, dying for us so that we may live with him. Not in our good works, but whether we put our trust in the sacrifice that God provided for us by sending his son to die in our place. Sin was brought in the world by Adam, Christ died for those sins. If creation is true, then so is the fall in the Garden of Eden. If that is true, then we must need a savior.

If evolution is true, then where are we going? Existence of God is brought to a level of superstition, and along with that the need of a savior becomes ridiculous. With no Adam and Eve, and therefore no sin in the Garden of Eden who needs atonement? Often is heard how primitive life survived in a primordial soup, a kind of slime. From slime to man means, in time, man will evolve into a God-like state, having a superior mind and intellect. This divine man is as far ahead of us on the evolutionary scale as we are from the worm. Do worms go to heaven? Will this divine man wink at our beliefs in an afterlife?

As a child, we are told to obey authority figures like our parents and policemen. When we started school, those authority figures became our teachers and our principals. When we questioned the teachers and our textbooks, the final authority became the textbook author and the scientist; the all-knowing, objective human beings who would never steer us wrong because they had studied all the facts before coming up with their conclusions. After studying science myself for a few years, along with writings from scientists that refute another’s work, I have arrived at my own conclusion: that as a society, we have become too willing to accept as fact what someone says about a certain subject because of that persons credentials and too willing to ignore our own doubts about these statements that are made because of our own lack of education in these areas.

One of these areas most affected by our easy acceptance of ‘scientific fact’ is evolution, and specifically, human evolution. Many scientists and farmers are aware that when two animals of the same species mate, their offspring will carry characteristics of both parents, yet be unique in it’s own way. Scientists in the 19th century took this line of thinking further and reasoned that these inherited characteristics would make the animal more able or less able to survive, with the weaker characteristics eventually causing the demise of the offspring that carried the weaker traits, and the survival of the offspring that carried the stronger characteristics of the parents. Herbert Spencer, the founder of ‘Social Darwinism’, took these observed events and applied this logic to humans. Since the European race, (white), was obviously more superior to the African race, (black), in areas of speech, culture, and intelligence, Spencer thought evolution had to be the cause and used his brand of evolutionary thinking to influence many Europeans.

These evolutionary descriptions of cultural growth influenced Europe up to the time of Adolph Hitler, who used evolution to explain the differences and abnormalities of the ‘inferior’ races such as Jews, Gypsies, and Negroes. This type of thinking was also present in the United States where it was concentrated in the area of perpetuating our own apartheid system in the south. It is also the driving force behind Margaret Sangers push for abortion and forced sterilization of American Blacks in the early 1900�??s.

These events happened because people listened to the authority figures instead of their own conscience. What was worse, these �??facts�?? of evolution were introduced into the public school system and taught as fact instead of as theory. Up until this time, creation was taught according to the Bible account in the United States, yet when ‘science’ stepped forward and said different, the die was cast. The Genesis account was put in doubt, and since no house can stand without a foundation, the historical accuracy of the Bible became questionable, along with it’s importance in one’s life.

Almost all evidence for human evolution is extremely questionable. Scientists theorize that we evolved from quadrepedal ape like creatures, (hominoids), into bi-pedal erect walking ape like creatures, (hominids), to eventually become ourselves. Many fossils have been found that are claimed to represent the various stages of evolution from quadruped to biped, yet there are ‘missing links’ between these forms.

Evolution demands that these missing links are authentic, for they would represent the transition from one group into a higher group. What does Charles Darwin say about missing links? " The main cause of innumerant intermediate links not now occurring everywhere throughout nature, depends on the very process of natural selection, through which new varieties continually take the place of and supplant their parent forms. But just in proportion as this process of extermination has acted on an enormous scale, so much the number of intermediate varieties , which formally existed, be truly enormous. Why then is not every geologic formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain, and this perhaps, is the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory. The explanation lies, as I believe, in the extreme imperfection of the geologic record." (The Origin Of The Species, chap. 10).

Here, Darwin states that if evolution is true, then there must be numberless intermediate links between species. Yet, Darwin himself admits that there are NO finely graduated links between these species that have been discovered. He then goes on to say that the geologic record is hiding these transitional forms from us. How could a belief system, based on unobserved events with no proof to back it up, become so prevalent in society? In the 100 years that have passed since Darwin, we have more than quadrupled the number of fossil species that we have found and these links still have yet to be announced. Why was Darwin�??s theory accepted at all when by education he was not a scientist, but a theologian?

If these links were found, how would science know where to classify these fossils? Darwinian evolutionary change happens so slow that the changes would be so minute that it would be impossible to distinguish one species from another, let alone when one species became another.

Modem science has proven through the archaeological record that the geologic column does not contain these missing links or any evidence for gradual change via evolution. Do the evolutionists give up? Nope, they just change their theories.

Evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould has introduced his theory to explain the gaps between species. 'Punctuated Equilibrium ’ is the new theory that species remain the same for long periods of time, and then through sudden, short bursts of evolutionary lightning lasting maybe 500,000 years or so, then reappear as new, different species. This theory explains the gaps in fossil record because there wouldn’t be enough time for significant fossils to be formed in order for us to find them 5 million years later!

Darwin said his fossils were there but we didn’t find them yet. Stephen Jay Gould says the fossils aren’t there, that’s why there are gaps in the fossil record. If I told you I did my homework, but the dog ate it, would you believe me? Once again, the proof, is that there is no proof. Evolution is such a fun theory, you can think up any zany idea from microbes on meteors to aliens with a mission to populate the universe and ‘science’ will back you up; but what happens if you say, " In the beginning, God…

Neither creation or evolution has ever been witnessed by man. Both beliefs must be accepted by faith. Yet, in order to know which belief is to be held, all evidence must be weighed from one belief against the other.

A literal 6 day creation cannot be proved exactly, but a sudden appearance of life forms on earth, as evidenced by the fossil record, would provide fuel in any debate against an evolutionist as to whether life evolved slowly over millions of years, or appeared suddenly.

Evolution, whether sudden, (punctuational), or gradual,(Darwinian), would require an appearance of life from non-life forms. Yet, is this possible? Spontaneous generation has never been observed. This was proved by Louis Pasteur and Joseph Lister in the 1800’s when we discovered germs. Life only appears when life already existed. This is called the Law of Biogenesis.

Another way to approach this argument is to refer to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Lord Kelvin stated it this way: " There is no natural process, the only result of which is to cool a heat reservoir and do external work." In more understandable terms, this means that energy will turn to a state of entropy, one of less complexity and greater disorder along with a lack of usefulness unless acted on by an outside force that is directing this energy by means of an ordered arrangement that controls this energy in a useful way. Therefore, the amount of useable energy in the universe is becoming less and less. Ultimately, the amount of energy available would be zero. Due to this fact, it must be understood that the natural state of any natural system is one of disorder unless acted upon by an outside force in an intelligent, constructive manner. Any system left to itself will begin to degenerate. If you clean your room, it will get dirty again. Any life form alive today will eventually die. Chemical compounds left to themselves will break down into their parent atoms. Energy that is directed into these systems in an intelligent manner can cause greater complexity in the organism, yet when the intelligent influx of energy is removed, the system will begin to deteriorate immediately.

Evolution would require that through random, chance processes, inorganic materials would gather in such a way to create organic materials capable of replicating themselves. This process would require immense amounts of time in order to occur, and not only time, but protection against destructive forces acting on the material that was to become life.

This process is the reverse of what we know as fact as far as the 2nd law of thermodynamics is concerned. Naturalistic evolution requires that through known, proven physical laws atoms organize themselves into increasingly complex and beneficial ordered arrangements all by chance, and all without intelligent ordering of energy or information causing the change. Over the long periods of time necessary for evolution to occur, these early chance chemical combinations would be bombarded by cosmic rays, radioactive enough to destroy whatever is exposed. This raw energy is absolutely useless to these early chemicals because they have no means to process this energy in any meaningful way. Photosynthesis may be how plants process sunlight, but we’re talking about a time before even the first cell; after all, plants have genetic information that programs certain cells in them in how to process this incoming light. Our first primordial cell would have no such mechanism built in yet to process ultraviolet radiation. Therefore, evolution cannot have occurred.

If by chance this pre-organic material formed on the surface of the earth, it would still find it impossible to become a life form for two reasons. Before the introduction of oxygen into the atmosphere, cosmic rays would destroy all life forms on the planet, for it is oxygen that is Ozone, O3. If there was an oxygen atmosphere, which might produce ozone, then oxidation would occur and destroy whatever is floating around. These forces would be the most important factors on whether life would evolve here.

If a life form did evolve, it would have to evolve with many existing functions the first time. A life form needs a mouth, a digestive system, a method of locomotion, and reproductive organs. Just examining the extreme complexity of these mechanisms should stop the argument here, but lets keep going.

With who would this life form mate? This first living form would need to be asexual or have a mate, which was it? What is the proof of either? Asexuality itself demands a complex system of operation, a complex series of commands to initiate. Since we are talking about the first life form, it had to be asexual unless you also want to believe that not only did a life form evolve from inorganic material, but it�??s mate simultaneously evolved right alongside, right at the same time, in the same conditions, with completely compatible organic operation.

What did it eat? Think, not only did this life form need a mechanism of ingesting material to be processed as energy, but that material had to be nearby. How could all these internal organs evolve by chance? Think, not only the internal organs evolved, but so did the nerve system that controls these organs along with the organism’s brain along with the intelligence to operate these organs in a manner that allowed the organism to survive. If you don�??t believe that was necessary, then you must also believe that some chemical process happened by chance that processed whatever came down the life form�??s �??mouth�?? in a manner that was compatible with the organism. What happens to this energy while being digested? We call this excess material waste, and it is poisonous. How was this waste removed from the organism? How did this organism not only evolve with a mouth, but also with a method of releasing waste?

How did it survive in it’s primitive surroundings? How did any intelligent information get to these important functional systems in a manner that was beneficial to the organism? What type of brain and nervous system evolves by chance? How did something as complex as the eye happen by chance? If the organism didn’t have eyes, how did it know when to open it’s mouth when it was time to eat? How did hunger pains evolve?

All of these things speak of intelligence. Without designed and coded information, a life form is useless. The pure chemistry of a cell is not enough to explain the working of a cell, although the workings are chemical. The chemical workings of a cell are controlled by intelligent information and commands that do not reside in the atoms and molecules of these chemicals. A dead body is dead; WHY? It has all the chemicals necessary to support life already existing in a complete form with nothing missing, right?

Let’s suppose this life did survive. Mendels�?? law of genetics prove that variation can occur within a species, but cannot create a new species across phylum boundaries. Acquired characteristics cannot be inherited, such as the large muscles of a weightlifter to his son. Natural selection cannot create new genes, it can only select from existing gene information nation. Dogs remain dogs, and cats remain cats.

Mutations are now the only possible explanation for evolution, yet rarely has any mutation been Proven to be beneficial to any organism in its natural environment. Almost all observed mutations are harmful and many are fatal… There is no known mutation that has ever produced a form of life having both greater complexity and greater viability than any of its ancestors.

Over 80 years of fruit fly experiments involving 3000 consecutive generations, give absolutely no basis for believing that any natural or artificial process can cause an increase in complexity and viability.

What causes variation and change in life? DNA. DNA stores enough information to fill 1000 books, each with 500 pages of fine print. Even the DNA of a small bacterium is composed of 3 million units all aligned in a very precise meaningful sequence. It is a mathematical impossibility for a random chance arrangement of molecules to arrange itself in the form of a DNA helix.

According to Dr. John Grebe, “The 15000 or more atoms of the individual sub-assemblies of a single DNA molecule, if left to chance as required by the evolutionary theory, would go together in any of the 10^87, (10 followed by 87 zeroes), different ways. It is like throwing 15000 pairs of dice at one time to determine what specific molecule to make; and to test each one for the survival of the fittest until the one out of 10^87 different possibilities is proven by survival of the fittest is proven to be the right one.”

Evolutionists claim the universe is 10 to 20 Billion years old. There is less than 10^17 seconds in 20 billion years. Even by a trial and error combination occurring every second from the beginning of time till now, there is still no hope.

Mathematician I. L. Cohen says, “At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between evolutionists and creationists should have come to a screeching halt. Mathematically speaking, based on probability concepts, there is no possibility that evolution was the mechanism that created the approximately 6,000,000 species of plants and animals we recognize today.”

Evolutionist Michael Denton: “The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle.”

Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle agrees with creationists on this point. He said the odds that a cell is formed by chance is equal to the odds that a tornado going through a junkyard would create a working 747 with all instruments working. Science has discovered no proof that animals or plants can evolve. The best established facts of genetics, biology, and botany studies indicate evolution is physically impossible.

Let’s turn to the origin of man, and specifically, the fossil record of �??Man�??. Many people believe we have �??proof�?? of evolution through the fossil record, yet is this true? What is the facts surrounding fossils that are presumed to portray man?

Ramapithicus, often pictured as walking erect, has been degrade to the status of extinct ape. It’s teeth and dental characteristics are similar to the gelada gibbon.(Richard Leaky/Roger Lewin Origins P.68). It has also been declared to be part of orangutan lineage.(Science News Vol 121 #5 Jan 30, 1982 P.84)

Australopithecine: not a missing link, but an extinct ape. Dr. Charles Oxnard, U. of Chicago says, " These fossils clearly differ more from both humans and African apes, than these two living groups from each other. �??The Australopithecines are unique." (Fossils, Teeth, and Sex: New Perspectives on human evolution; Seattle U. of Wash Press)

Lucy has been compared to modem pygmy chimpanzees. Paleontologist Adrienne Zihlman, Univ. of Cal at Santa Cruz:( Lucy’s fossil remains match up remarkably well with the bones of a pygmy chimp,(although there are some differences)). Adrienne Zihlman, �??Pygmy chimps and pundits", New Scientist Vol 104 #1430 Nov 15, 1984 P.39-40

Homo habilis was once called a missing link between Australopithecus and homo erectus, and a missing link between ape and man. Current conclusions are a chimpanzee, orangutan, or an Australopithecine. (Albert W. Mehlert, �??Homo Habilis Dethroned", Contrast: The creation evolution controversy Vol 6 #6)

Sianthropus, or Peking Man, was found in China in the 20’s and 30’s. Evidence included skulls and a few limb bones, but were lost during W.W.II. Clear evidence at the same site showed true man along with a 30 ft. deep ash pile and a limestone mine. All of the skulls of Sianthropus were broken in the same manner as those of monkeys who are eaten for their brains.(Ian Taylor, “In the Minds of Men: Darwin and the World Order”, Toronto Canada, TFE pub. 1984 p. 234-241

Pithecanthropus, or Java Man, is based solely on the evidence of a skull cap and a femur that was dug up a year later and 50 feet away. The finder, Eugene Dubois, admitted the skull cap was from a gibbon like ape.(Eugene Dubois, �??On the gibbon like appearance of Pithecanthropus Erectus", Koniklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen Vol 38 Amsterdam Koninklijke Akademie 1935 P.578)

Nebraska Man was a local fossil, the entire evidence consisting of a single tooth. Nebraska Man was pictured on the front page of Life magazine in a hunter-gatherer mode. During the famous Scopes Monkey Trial, Nebraska Man was labeled a genuine missing link. The tooth turned out to be a tooth of a pig. (Henry Fairfield Osborne, Hesperopithicus Haroldcookii, the first anthropoid primate found in North America, Science Vol 60 #1427 May 3, 1922 P.463)(William K. Gregory, “Hesperopithecus apparently not ape or man” Science Vol 66 #17209 Dec 16, 1927)

Piltdown Man, a deliberate hoax some blame on Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, had people fooled for years and even had its picture on Life Magazine.(Joseph Wiener “The Piltdown Forgery” London Oxford U. Press)

Neanderthal Man was found in Neanderthal Valley in West Germany. Long accepted as a missing link, Neanderthal man has been proven to be human, very similar to Europeans today, yet with proven diseases such as rickets, syphilis, and arthritis.(Carl Hodge “Neanderthal Traits Extant, Group Told” The Arizona Republic Vol 99 #186 P. B-5)

There is no proof that man evolved from an ape like creature. In fact, many fossils of man have been found, dated to coincide with the ages of these extinct apes:

Petralona Man, found in a stalagmite 700 thousand years old.(Current Anthropology Vol 22 #3 June 1981 P.287)

Human Jawbone found in China in Yangtze River dated 2 million years old.(Java Man is only 500 thousand)(Mesa Tribune Mesa Arizona Nov 20 1988)

Also, there are some findings that contradict all known science:

Human skeleton found 1. 6 million years old, by Richard Leaky( Wash. Post Oct 19, 1984)

Evolutionists themselves disagree on just what the fossils mean and just how old they are. Consider the following:

RUINED FAMILY TREE: “either we toss out this [skull 11470] or we toss out our theories of early man,” asserts anthropologist Richard Leakey of this 2.8 million year old fossil, which he has tentatively identified as belonging to our own genus. “It simply fits no previous models of human beginnings.” The author, son of famed anthropologist Louis S.B. Leakey, believes that the skull’s surprisingly large braincase “leaves in ruins the notion that all early fossils can be arranged to an orderly sequence of evolutionary change.” NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, June 1973, p.819

HUMAN BRAIN: “Leakey further describes the whole shape of the brain case [skull 11470] as remarkably reminiscent of modern man, lacking the heavy and protruding eyebrow ridges and thick bone characteristics of Homo Erectus.” SCIENCE NEWS, April 3, 1972, p. 324

“OLD” MODERN MAN: Louis Leakey, “In 1933 I published on a small fragment of jaw we call Homo Kanamens 1s, and I said categorically that this is not a near-man or ape, this is a true member of genus Homo. There were stone tools with it too. The age was probably around 2.5 to 3 million years. It was promptly put upon a shelf by my colleagues, except for two of them. The rest said it must be placed in a “suspense account”. Now, 36 years later, we have proved I was right.” Quoted in Bones of Contention, p.156

THE OLDEST MAN: “[African footprints]… they belonged to the genus Homo (or true man), rather than to man-apes (like Australopithecus, who was once thought to be the forerunner of Man but is now regarded as a possible evolutionary dead end)… they were 3.35 to 3.75 million years old… they would, in Mary Leakey’s words, be people ‘not unlike ourselves’” TIME, Nov. 10, 1975, p.93

TOO HUMAN TOO OLD: Russell H Tuttle, Professor of Anthropology, University of Chicago, Affiliate Scientist, Primate Research Center, Emory University, “In sum, the 3.5 million year old footprint trails at Laetoli site G resemble those of habitually unshod modern Humans… If the G footprints were not known to be so old, we would readily conclude that they were made by a member of our genus… in any case, we should shelve the loose assumption that the Laetoli footprints were made by Lucy’s kind…” NATURAL HISTORY, March 1990, p. 64

Human footprints, dated 3.75 million years old at Latolil (Nature Vol28 #5702 Mar 22.1979, P.317-323)

MODERN AND TALL: Richard Leakey, “… the boy from Tukana was surprisingly large compared with modern boys his age… he would probably go unnoticed in a crowd today. This find combines with previous discoveries of Homo Erectus to contradict a long held idea that humans have grown larger over the millennia,” NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, Nov. 1985, p. 629

MAN EVEN BEFORE “LUCY”: Charles E. Oxnard, Dean, Grad School, Professor Biology and Anatomy, USC, “…earlier finds, for instance, at Kanapoi, existed at the same time as, and probably even earlier than, the original gracile Australopithecines… almost indistinguishable in shape from that of modern Humans at four and a half million years…” AMERICAN BIOLOGY TEACHER, Vol. 41, May 1979, p.274

HENRY M. MCHENRY, U of C, DAVIS, “The results show that the Kanapoi specimen, which is 4 to 4.5 million years old, is indistinguishable from modern Homo Sapiens…” SCIENCE, Vol. 190, p.28


WILLIAM HOWELLS, HARVARD, “With a date of about 4.4 million years, [KP 2711] could not be distinguished from Homo Sapiens morphologically or by multivariate analysis by Patterson or myself in 1967 (or by much searching analysis by others since then). We suggested that it might represent Australopithecus because at the time, time allocation to Homo seemed preposterous, although it would be the correct one without the time element.” HOMO ERECTUS, 1981, pp. 79-80

What do evolutionists and other well respected scientists say about evolution? Evolutionists themselves disagree, and those with scientific backgrounds often deny the evidence of evolution. Consider these sources:

The Dissidents No less an authority than the world-renowned paleontologist (with Dr. Colin Patterson) for the British Museum of Natural History, Dr. N. Etheridge, has remarked: “Nine tenths of the talk of evolutionists is sheer nonsense, not founded on observation and wholly unsupported by facts. This museum is full of proofs of the utter falsity of their views. In all this great museum, their is not a particle of evidence of the transmutation of species.” (quoted by Lindsay Gordon, Evolution - The Incredible Hoax, 1977)

Sir Ernest Chain, 1945 Nobel Prize winner for developing penicillin, in D.T. Rosevear’s Scientists critical of Evolution, July 1980, p.4: “To postulate that the development and survival of the fittest is entirely a consequence of chance mutations seems to me a hypothesis based on no evidence and irreconcilable with the facts.”

Dr. Werner von Braun, one of the leading scientists in NASA’s Apollo project (many of you interested in space exploration know the name), wrote the following in a letter to the California State Board of Education, September 14, 1972: “To be forced to believe only one conclusion - that everything in the universe happened by chance - would violate the very objectivity of science itself. Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of man or the system of the human eye?.. We in NASA were often asked what the real reason was for the amazing string of successes we had with our Apollo flights to the Moon. I think the only honest answer we could give was that we tried to never overlook anything. It is in that same sense of scientific honesty that I endorse the presentation of alternative theories for the origin of the universe, life, and man in the science classroom, It would be an error to overlook the possibility that the universe was planned rather than happened by chance.”

Dr. Pierre P. Grasse, editor of the twenty-eight volumes of “Traite de Zoologie” and ex-president of the Academie des Sciences is considered to be the most distinguished of French zoologists. His conclusions? “The explanatory doctrines of biological evolution do not stand up to an in-depth criticism.” (The Evolution of Living Organisms)

P. Lemoine, a president of the Geologic Society of France, editor of the Encyclopedie Francaise, and director of the Natural History Museum in Paris, has concluded: “The theories of evolution, with which our studious youth have been deceived, constitute actually a dogma that all the world continues to teach; but each, in his specialty, the zoologist or the botanist, ascertains that none of the explanations furnished is adequate… It results from this summary, that the theory of evolution, is impossible.” (Introduction: De L’Evolution? in 5 Encyclopedie Francaise)

Dr. Hubert P. Yockey, A Calculation of the Probability of Spontaneous Biogenesis bt Information Theory, Journal of Theoretical Biology, 1977, Vol. 67, p.398: “One must conclude that, contrary to the established and current wisdom, a scenario describing the genesis of life on earth by chance and natural causes which can be accepted on the basis of fact and not faith has not yet been written.”

Dr. Derek V. Ager, Geologist, Imperial College, London, Proceedings of the Geological Association, Vol. 87, 1976, pp.132 - 133: “It must be significant that nearly all the evolutionary stories I learned as a student… have now been debunked.”

Dr. Michael Denton, Molecular Biologist, evolutionist, concludes his 1986 book Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, thus: “Ultimately, the Darwinian theory of evolution is no more or less than the great cosmogenic myth of the twentieth century… The truth is that despite the prestige of evolutionary theory and the tremendous intellectual effort directed towards reducing living systems to the confines of Darwinian thought, nature refuses to be imprisoned. The “mystery of mysteries” - the origin of new beings on earth - is still largely as enigmatic as when Darwin set sail on the Beagle”.

Finally, the aforementioned Dr. Colin Patterson, a senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum, remarked in a 1981 lecture at the American Museum of Natural History: "Can you tell me anything you know about evolution, any one thing… that is true? I tried that question on the geology staff at the Field Museum of Natural History and the only answer I got was silence. I tried it on the members of the Evolutionary Morphology seminar at the University of Chicago, a very prestigious body of evolutionists, and all I got there was silence for a long time and eventually one person said, “I do know one thing - it ought not be taught in high school.”

Have there been any strange findings that disagree with evolutionary thought about how old mankind is?

Gold Chains found in coal.(Morrisonville Times, Morrisonville M Jun 11 1891)

Metal bell shaped vessel found in solid rock.(Scientific American Vol7 June 1851 P 298-299)

Another important topic is the age of the earth. Is the earth billions of years old? The earth’s magnetic field was measured accurately since 1835. Since 1835 the earth’s magnetic field has decreased by 6%. Physicist Dr. Thomas Bames concluded that the half life for the magnetic field was 830 to 1400 years. That means that 830 to 1400 years ago, the magnetic field was twice as strong as it is today. Another 831 to 1400 years before that, it was 4 times as strong.

According to Dr. Bames," If we went back about 10,000 years, the earth’s magnetic field would have been as strong as the field in a magnetic star. A magnetic star is like our sun: it has a nuclear power source. Surely our Earth never had a nuclear power source like the sun. Surely our earth never had a magnetic field stronger than a star. That would limit the age of the earth to 10,000 years. Science could definitely say, from the greatest physical evidence,(the kind of evidence and physics that we design radar sets with, and communication sets with), that the earth’s magnetic field cannot be more than about 6 to 15 thousand years old." Thomas Bames, The Earth a young Planet? Films for Christ Assoc.)

Another topic would be population growth. There have been estimates of population growth as high as 2% per year. Assuming that population grows at only .5% per year, it would take only 4000 years to achieve today’s population beginning from a single couple. Many creationists feel that Noah’s flood was about 4000 years ago, so this fits creation theory quite nicely. If the Earth is as old as evolutionists claim, and the population grew at .5%, in a million years there would be lOE2100 people! Even if it took a million years to get at our present population, there would have been about 3,000,000,000,000 people before us! Where is the fossil evidence? Where is the cultural evidence?

Another topic is space dust, or debris left over from creation or impacts of meteors or comets. If the Earth or the Moon were as old as evolutionists say, there should be plentiful amounts of dust on the Moon that could have been, measured when we landed there. NASA even put large saucer shaped pads on the LEM so that it would not sink into the soil.

Some say that creation is a religious belief. Only Christianity, Judaism, and Islam believe in special creation. Do any religions believe in evolution? How about Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Shintoism, Taoism, Confusionism, Buddism, American Indian Native Religions, Secular Humanism, and Satanism.

To assume that a belief in a creator God would disqualify someone from being a real scientist, consider this list:

JOSEPH LISTER- ANTISEPTIC SURGERY

LOUIS PASTEUR- BACTERIOLOGY

ISAAC NEWTON- CALCULUS

JOHANNA KEEPER- CELESTIAL MECHANICS

ROBERT BOYLE- CHEMISTRY

JAMES CLERK MAXWELL-ELECTRODYNAMICS

MICHAEL FARADAY-ELECTROMAGNETICS

AMBROSE FLEMING-ELECTRONICS

LORD KELVIN-ENERGETICS

WILLIAM HERSCHEL-GALACTIC ASTRONOMY

GREGOR MENDEL-GENETICS

DAVINCI-HYDRAULICS

BLAISE PASCAL-HYDROSTATICS

JAMES JOULE-REVERSIBLE THERMODYNAMICS

CHARLES BABBAGE-ACTUARIAL TABLES

JOSEPH HENRY-ELECTRIC MOTOR

SAMUEL F. B. MORSE-TELEGRAPH

I GUESS THE BIBLE’S TRUE AFTER ALL!"

All this can be found at the website below…

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37d00a8465b5.htm

merlin

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
As I’ve found with previous creationists they never consider facts that are presented to them or rebuttals to their “unanswerable” questions. They just disregard those things. They also never acknowledge debates that have occurred where the creationist was completely trounced (Saladin V. Gish 1988). They just continue to repeat the same claims.[/quote]

This debate was interesting in the fact that they tried a new tactic. It was a “stealth” Intelligent Design attack, combined with mass accusations of bigotry, narrow mindedness, and sprinkled with some philosophy of science stuff that was interesting, but not really so relevant. The whole “I’m not a creationist, but answer these creationist arguments” and the now famous “don’t label me because you don’t know me and you don’t know what you know or even what you don’t know, and at least I know what I don’t know, which makes my claims of supernatural events unassailable.”

None of my respectfully asked questions to RJ or Merlin have been answered. Even when RJ did answer some of my questions he selectively responded and ignored anything he did not like. They both will probably stop posting and claim it is because we are brainwashed/close minded.

I guess they are regrouping:

Head Hunter is rapidly reading his philosophers guide to challenging science, hoping to find something to prove that his thought game isn’t just another philosophical dead end soon to be passed up by scientific research that the philosophers can’t possibly understand.

RainJack is wearing out his thesaurus, trying to replace the word Bigot since he wore it out it only six post. He is also going to look up “cognitive dissonance” on the psychology dictionary to see if he can prove that his believes aren’t completely delusional. After all 150,000 southern baptist can’t all be wrong… can they? (he isn’t really a southern baptist, he confided to me that he is actually a Zoroastrian, which carries a lot more respect)

Merlin, realizing that there are many high IQ people who never accomplish anything in life and die without ever having a single compelling idea is now forced to realize he will forever be known as the guy who posted the dumbest creationist arguments ever assembled on one web page as is own and as if they were in anyway factual or compelling. He is probably contemplating suicide.

I am eagerly awaiting their return.

[quote]merlin wrote:
"Here is the essay that started it all here. Enjoy!

All this can be found at the website below…

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37d00a8465b5.htm

merlin[/quote]

I have work to do, but I will try to pull this apart and take it on this weekend. Maybe gotaknife will address it? One thing I noticed was that it listed some scientist/inventors/engineers who believed in god then proclaimed that as proof of something. It is misleading on two counts, first several of them believed in god in the same sense that Spinoza and Einstein believed in god, not a personal creator, but more as an embodiment of the laws of the universe. Secondly, Even if all the scientist believe in god it means nothing. If every scientist and engineer stood up and said they were atheist would that make atheism true?

Why didn’t you spend that time answering my questions to you instead of looking up an article written in 1999, that hasn’t been updated at all, and contains a logical fallacy in BOLD PRINT? I wonder if head hunter will analyze the argument on that page philosophically, or does he only attack science? At first glance there is nothing in that article that I haven’t seen on a creationist website and debunked before.

Glad to see you show up. Thing were getting boring.

Oh, I have an idea for the challenge. We can both buy a version of trivial pursuit and play over a web cam. That would reduce cheating, and we could pick a version that is unlikely to be memorized by either of us (I memorized about 80% of the first two editions for quiz bowl training) Does that sound good, or do you have a better idea?

[quote]Fitnessdiva wrote:
As I’ve found with previous creationists they never consider facts that are presented to them or rebuttals to their “unanswerable” questions. They just disregard those things. They also never acknowledge debates that have occurred where the creationist was completely trounced (Saladin V. Gish 1988). They just continue to repeat the same claims.[/quote]

Hey, you’re kinda cute. I’ll give you points for that. But you lose points in attitude and creative thought. You have a weakness that a highly dominant left brained(conservative and/or logical) thinker has. It IS an inabilty to change their mind and leave it open to suggestion, something a right brained(open-minded and creative) thinker can remedy and draw from at will. You resist change because that part of the brain that deals with conflict doesn’t register with you(very little brain activity there) and you can’t deal with it. It is easier to continue on the chosen path no matter what holes you may step into. This is good for zoning in on a project and blocking out distractions, but does you no good for comming any closer to reason. It leaves you with no option but to stand your ground even in the face of defeat. You’d rather be wrong than change, in summary. This is your error in judgement.

It is also an error in judgement of a highly dominant right brained thinker to never disregard illogical reason by accepting every idea that is thrown at them. Your opinion is not wrong, but your attitude is and overall thinking process. Sometimes you’re right and this way of thinking will benefit you, but when you’re wrong it will be your demise.

rainjack on the other hand has the ability to use both sides of his brain. Even though he’s typically conservative and uses a logical approach most of the time, he has the abilty to use both sides of his brain and his mind is open to suggestion. This is where I sit as well, maybe a little less consevative than him. As a math major my left brain is in overdrive, but I’m always open to suggestion. I already stated I have no problem at all believing in evolution if the theory actually made some damn sense. I’m as open-minded as they get. This is why I asked you to help me/us/anybody believe this theory, because right now it doesn’t add up at all. I gotta go nay on this one.

The use of both sides of your brain without a highly dominant side is the best fit for reason. I don’t agree with alot of what rainjack says politically(I have my own thoughts) but he is on the money on this subject. He hasn’t even stated a belief yet, but he is accused of everything. What does that say about your thinking? The true genius leaves their mind open to all possibilities no matter how much they already know or THINK they know. None of us have all the answers, when its all said & done we don’t know jack shit in the entire realm of things …we just thought we did.

merlin

At the heart of the evolution debate is the basic idea of what the public schools should teach our kids. Some school boards have favored putting some type of “disclaimer” in textbooks pointing out various holes in evolution. I have the perfect disclaimer:

“The theory of evolution is, to date, the best scientific theory about how species of animals originated. This theory conflicts with some people’s religious beliefs. As scientists and teachers, we strongly encourage you to talk about this with your parents or guardians. But because the theory of evolution is currently the best that science has to offer, we will be studying it in our biology class.”

Imagine that. Rather than arguing what our children should be learning, why don’t we, as parents, actually teach our children. As parents, I believe we have just as much influence as the schools. In this debate, I come down on the side of evolution. If you disagree, more power to you - take the time to teach your children what you believe.

[quote]merlin wrote:
Fitnessdiva wrote:
As I’ve found with previous creationists they never consider facts that are presented to them or rebuttals to their “unanswerable” questions. They just disregard those things. They also never acknowledge debates that have occurred where the creationist was completely trounced (Saladin V. Gish 1988). They just continue to repeat the same claims.

Hey, you’re kinda cute. I’ll give you points for that. But you lose points in attitude and creative thought. You have a weakness that a highly dominant left brained(conservative and/or logical) thinker has. It IS an inabilty to change their mind and leave it open to suggestion, something a right brained(open-minded and creative) thinker can remedy and draw from at will. You resist change because that part of the brain that deals with conflict doesn’t register with you(very little brain activity there) and you can’t deal with it. It is easier to continue on the chosen path no matter what holes you may step into. This is good for zoning in on a project and blocking out distractions, but does you no good for comming any closer to reason. It leaves you with no option but to stand your ground even in the face of defeat. You’d rather be wrong than change, in summary. This is your error in judgement.

It is also an error in judgement of a highly dominant right brained thinker to never disregard illogical reason by accepting every idea that is thrown at them. Your opinion is not wrong, but your attitude is and overall thinking process. Sometimes you’re right and this way of thinking will benefit you, but when you’re wrong it will be your demise. [/quote]
the entire right brain left brain thing is bunk. The corpus colossom allows rapid communication between both hemispheres.

yeah, RJ has shown that he is open to suggestion. You can tell by his repeated use of the word bigot and unwillingness to answer any of my questions. You are being very condescending (although I guess it is ok when you do it, because you and RJ have thought it through from both sides of the subject, ha ha), using bad science, and trying to justify your bad choices by saying you are being open minded. Don’t worry, you are just doing what most people do, even scientist. You make a decision then try to justify it. It’s just in your case the justification is falsifiable and even laughable.

Wow, where to start on this… everyone uses both sides of there brain. CAT scans and Radiometric MRIs have proved that the whole right and left brain stuff in nonsense.

Two, RJ hasn’t CLEARLY stated a belief yet, but he has made assumptions and has used arguments that are indicative of a belief system. I’ve read through the post and no one has attacked him for his beliefs. He was questioned about the implications of his beliefs and about what he was actually trying to say. If you speak vague enough anyone can sound like a sage. It’s like a fortune cookie, it sounds good at first but has no content.

True genius doesn’t mean shit, I watched a special where some high IQ guy wasted his entire life working as a janitor and writing a mathematical proof of god. Ten years later there was the old brainiac working away, no closer to anything. Many Geniuses accomplish nothing and make the same faulty assumptions about life as anyone else. They get bamboozled out of money, go broke in the stock market (see the LTCM melt down), and die hopeless drug addicts. The only thing having a high IQ means is that you are better than most people at solving puzzles and conceptual problems. I don’t have a 162 IQ, but I have take enough of the test not to be too impressed with someone just because they are good at it. Get a grip for the love of god. Anyone who has taken an IQ test or read Marylin von Savant’s articles and th ensuing debates would know that. On the converse, many great scientific discoveries were made by average hard working people.

What I believe might end up being wrong, I admit that, but the statement that “we don’t know jack shit, we just thought we did” is way off. I does show why you are having problems with this debate. We have empirical evidence to support our views. I don’t know everything, but I know that we know more than you are giving us credit for. And what we know doesn’t leave any room for young earth creationism, or a magical involved god who is always suspending the laws of physics to find Mary’s cat and cure uncle Bob’s cancer.

Although, I guess if both you AND RJ agree on this, the rest of us must be closed minded or be using faulty logic. After all,what are the odds that both of the smartest people on T-Nation could be completely off base?

merlin [/quote]

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
Gotaknife, unfortunately I don’t think anyone is interested in learning or researching anything.

I would be interested in the “WTF they’re getting bigger problem” if you can explain it or point me to a good site I would love to see it.[/quote]

The WTF problem (this isn’t the official name obviously) is the general observation that lab mice and rats tend to slightly increase in size generation to generation without a discernible selective pressure for increase in body size. The effect has been observed since the 50’s but nobody really looked into it for a number of reasons.

First; everybody seemed to just note the effect observationally in discussions, often putting it down to slight errors, peculiarities in their strain or a side-effect of whatever there experiment was doing.

Second; it appears to be subtle and easily overridden by any selective pressure that even remotely relates to body size. Since body size is a vital parameter, the removal of all selective pressure is rarely done by accident.

Third; Once the effect was more commonly known it was put down to mate selection, where is was thought that females preferred larger males in environments with abundant food and space or that the bigger males were more dominant.

Forth; Another factor was that the mice were generally treated better when being experimented on than when being kept as stock (bad science!!). Thus the poor health of the mothers was blamed.

BUT in the early 90s (ill try to find a source) somebody actually bothered to do the obvious and remove mate selection (by randomised matings) and here is where the trouble arises. The experiment still showed this increase in body size from generation to generation. The researcher stopped at 20 generations and the body sizes were still slightly increasing (though the rate was decreasing to the point were it was becoming difficult to measure).

It can’t be put down to genetic drift (because it is not random) and there is no known selective force operating, hence the WTF! We don’t even know if this affects only mice and rats, all mammals or even all animals because you really need to know the animal to remove the selective pressures.
There has not been much follow up research since then, but Epigenetic inheritance (Epigenetics - Wikipedia if your interested in evolution definitely check this out) offers a reasonable explanation, but as yet no one has done much with this.

The problem with epigenetic studies is that at this stage they are VERY tough to investigate fully (you can observe the effects though).

Hopefully this all made sense!

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
merlin wrote:
"Here is the essay that started it all here. Enjoy!

All this can be found at the website below…

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37d00a8465b5.htm

merlin

I have work to do, but I will try to pull this apart and take it on this weekend. Maybe gotaknife will address it? One thing I noticed was that it listed some scientist/inventors/engineers who believed in god then proclaimed that as proof of something. It is misleading on two counts, first several of them believed in god in the same sense that Spinoza and Einstein believed in god, not a personal creator, but more as an embodiment of the laws of the universe. Secondly, Even if all the scientist believe in god it means nothing. If every scientist and engineer stood up and said they were atheist would that make atheism true?

Why didn’t you spend that time answering my questions to you instead of looking up an article written in 1999, that hasn’t been updated at all, and contains a logical fallacy in BOLD PRINT? I wonder if head hunter will analyze the argument on that page philosophically, or does he only attack science? At first glance there is nothing in that article that I haven’t seen on a creationist website and debunked before.

Glad to see you show up. Thing were getting boring.

Oh, I have an idea for the challenge. We can both buy a version of trivial pursuit and play over a web cam. That would reduce cheating, and we could pick a version that is unlikely to be memorized by either of us (I memorized about 80% of the first two editions for quiz bowl training) Does that sound good, or do you have a better idea?
[/quote]

I got to hand it to you …you got your ass and you head wired together. That seems to be where you do most of your thinking. You remind me of my father a little bit. My old man was a brilliant engineer who thought he knew everything and nobody was smarter than him. No way unt-uh, he had degrees out the ass and a GPA to boot. He only needed a reminder that even Einstein didn’t do so well in school before he realized who the real geniuses were. Unfortunately only to be outclassed and outwitted by his inferior son.

You just may be more ignorant than him. In fact you are. You will go as far to say that you’re going to debunk the thoughts of REAL INTELLECTUALS such as Braun and Da Vinci or any other IQ much higher than yours mentioned in the paper. You couldn’t debunk your own nostril hair, let alone the thoughts and quotes from this list of individuals.

The fact that you have this dying need to feel superior shows just how inferior you feel, I know your type all too well. Its safe to say you’ll prove just how ignorant you are as your quest comes to a close. Leaving you bloody and gagged from an onslaught of reason, and nowhere closer to promoting anything which could ever be considered a rational thought. The justification you seek is a roadmap to reason.

C’mon “Einstein” …shows us all how you’re the worlds only true genius and everyone else who thought different than you was just a sham. Who were those fools in that paper anyway, those arn’t real scientists? Time to debunk rational thought with a can of irrational thought and claim victory huh? Hey buddy, as long as you believe you’re smart …then that’s all that matters. Your subconscience will help you out in that dept. Just keep up the reps.

If anyone can turn a french fry into a hamburger with illogical reasoning, you can I’m certain of it. I have faith in you. Go for it. See if you can’t convince yourself that you still have some glial cells left, maybe you got two left and they’re strugglin’ over who gets to occupy that hollow space where a brain was supposed to be.

merlin

[quote]Flop Hat wrote:

Oh, I have an idea for the challenge. We can both buy a version of trivial pursuit and play over a web cam. That would reduce cheating, and we could pick a version that is unlikely to be memorized by either of us (I memorized about 80% of the first two editions for quiz bowl training) Does that sound good, or do you have a better idea?
[/quote]

Yeah I got a better idea. GET A LIFE!

You’re undying need to prove how smart you are is pathetic. This shows clearly how unintelligent you are. No intelligent man would EVER feel this need to prove himself. You have a serious void. Its a psychological one, but lets leave that alone. You were never challenged here, and have been calling everyone out. You’ve got something to prove. The mental midget always does. You’ve proved one thing, you’re are without a doubt the only reason for abortion.

By the way there Einstein, I already stated I’m not a scientist. So my posts will have the source of information on the bottom, I never claimed any information or research on evolution or creationism as my papers once. There’s a reason I have quotations and websites in my posts. I have nothing to do with either field and you’ve already dismissed my third option and decided I had to be one or the other. you do belong in politics, you’d make a fine ass out of yourself.

Although, evolution is giving science a stench that just needs to go away. The terms “fact” & “science” take on a whole new meaning with regards to evolution.

merlin