Alexus, I agree with that in order to deny Hobbes’ conclusion that we need an all powerful sovereing, all you need to do is to deny his premise that the State of Nature is really true. It’s definitely a hypothetical, b/c there’s no historical examples he’s basing his theory on, just a general idea.
I like the Somalia example as well. I agree that when things go badly, people will do what they have to do. Kantian ethics says to essentially do ‘good’ no matter what, as do most systems, but I don’t know how realistic that would be if a person were starving, etc.
I also realize that morals are completely man-made, obvi. Morals didn’t just appear in our minds. I also don’t subscribe to the idea that God enlightened us with them. I understand that morality is a man-made, social construct that’s purpose is to keep society in a harmonious balance.
I’d say that I’m somewhere between Kantianism and Hobbesianism. Kant said to ‘do good’ NO MATTER WHAT. But if it was me vs the other guy for life or death, who knows…
I also don’t like Hobbes’ solution to the State of Nature. I agree with his premise that without gov’t or rules, life would be nasty brutish and short. And I agree that the conclusion of giving power to an all-powerful sovereign follows logically. But I DON’T like his political ideas about the all powerful sovereign.
In theory, his system would work great. An all powerful guy, with out best interests at heart, would do great things for us. He’d keep us all “in awe” and society would be great.
But, history shows that corruption changes things. Give one person (or a group of people) unlimited power and they take advantage. Hobbes also says that if you agree to ‘submit’ to this sovereign, then you have ZERO right to question his authority, etc. Sounds a bit like Nazism to me.
I believe that Hobbes had this political end in mind, then worked back to form his premise that without the sovereign society would be horrible. It seems that he uses the State of Nature argument in order to justify an all-powerful government. But whatever.
Anyways, good stuff in here so far.