Elections

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Voting will be replaced with a better system eventually. Mankind is innovative, it is just all the people creative and thoughtful enough to discover new civic activities are busy making cat meme’s, playing beer pong and wasting time on TV and other bullshit. [/quote]

How about allowing each person to choose who governs the property he owns?[/quote]

You mean, they basic system set up by the founding fathers that has been sense perverted into bloated Federal tyrannical control.

[quote]NickViar wrote:
A man has a right to do anything that doesn’t impair another’s right to the same. [/quote]

The problem persists. By what decree does the second man have this right? What even is this right, and whence the authority of its granter?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
If 50.00001% of the population elects a candidate whom I oppose, then I have obviously not chosen my leader or who governs me, correct?

[/quote]

Yes you have, it is just the person you choose didn’t win what in contemporary times is a popularity contest for who is the bigger rockstar.

Voting will be replaced with a better system eventually. Mankind is innovative, it is just all the people creative and thoughtful enough to discover new civic activities are busy making cat meme’s, playing beer pong and wasting time on TV and other bullshit. [/quote]

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
If 50.00001% of the population elects a candidate whom I oppose, then I have obviously not chosen my leader or who governs me, correct?

[/quote]

Yes you have, it is just the person you choose didn’t win what in contemporary times is a popularity contest for who is the bigger rockstar.

Voting will be replaced with a better system eventually. Mankind is innovative, it is just all the people creative and thoughtful enough to discover new civic activities are busy making cat meme’s, playing beer pong and wasting time on TV and other bullshit. [/quote]

[/quote]

So… Out of all the people creative enough, good enough thinkers, to take this and run with it, make the world a better place, break through to new worlds of civic thought the likes mankind has never seen, are busy playing GTA right now, or studying their Fantasy Football roster?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:
If 50.00001% of the population elects a candidate whom I oppose, then I have obviously not chosen my leader or who governs me, correct?

[/quote]

Yes you have, it is just the person you choose didn’t win what in contemporary times is a popularity contest for who is the bigger rockstar.

Voting will be replaced with a better system eventually. Mankind is innovative, it is just all the people creative and thoughtful enough to discover new civic activities are busy making cat meme’s, playing beer pong and wasting time on TV and other bullshit. [/quote]

[/quote]

So… Out of all the people creative enough, good enough thinkers, to take this and run with it, make the world a better place, break through to new worlds of civic thought the likes mankind has never seen, are busy playing GTA right now, or studying their Fantasy Football roster?

[/quote]

Well Nozick did neither and who listened to him?

Nobody.

Its not the thinkers, its the audience.

[quote]orion wrote:

Its not the thinkers, its the audience. [/quote]

Fair enough, they are too busy with strippers, pintrest and Dancing with the Stars I guess.

[quote]orion wrote:
Well Nozick did neither and who listened to him?

Nobody.

Its not the thinkers, its the audience. [/quote]

But Master keeps me safe…from whom, you ask? Well, other masters, of course.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Its not the thinkers, its the audience. [/quote]

Fair enough, they are too busy with strippers, pintrest and Dancing with the Stars I guess. [/quote]

Why shouldn’t they be busy with those things? They know others will support them. The others will gladly support them, because the others believe that’s the moral thing to do. The others have been taught and believe that it’s immoral to allow people to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[quote]NickViar wrote:
The others will gladly support them, because the others believe that’s the moral thing to do. [/quote]

They know there leaders will use their high powered military to force the others to take care of them. The others do not gladly support them, the others are forced to support them with threat of imprisonment.

Absolutely.
But if a man take a previously unowned property for himself, everyone else will forever be without that piece of property.

Universal reciprocity is a great concept, but it doesn’t work very well with the concept of private property.
Because claiming property does “impair another’s right to the same”.

Hence Proudhon’s “property is theft”.

On the other hand, your argument is an excellent argument in favor of… collective property.

[quote]kamui wrote:

Absolutely.
But if a man take a previously unowned property for himself, everyone else will forever be without that piece of property.

Universal reciprocity is a great concept, but it doesn’t work very well with the concept of private property.
Because claiming property does “impair another’s right to the same”.

Hence Proudhon’s “property is theft”.

On the other hand, your argument is an excellent argument in favor of… collective property.

[/quote]

He first had possession of it. Is oxygen not converted to carbon dioxide by our bodies? When you breathe, do you steal oxygen from others? By the reasoning that taking possession of unclaimed property is theft, you surely do. I believe I admitted that my reasoning may not have been well articulated. The “Philosophy of Liberty” video probably did a better job than me of explaining the concept, by saying that property is the product of one’s life and liberty.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:

Absolutely.
But if a man take a previously unowned property for himself, everyone else will forever be without that piece of property.

Universal reciprocity is a great concept, but it doesn’t work very well with the concept of private property.
Because claiming property does “impair another’s right to the same”.

Hence Proudhon’s “property is theft”.

On the other hand, your argument is an excellent argument in favor of… collective property.

[/quote]

He first had possession of it. Is oxygen not converted to carbon dioxide by our bodies? When you breathe, do you steal oxygen from others? By the reasoning that taking possession of unclaimed property is theft, you surely do. I believe I admitted that my reasoning may not have been well articulated. The “Philosophy of Liberty” video probably did a better job than me of explaining the concept, by saying that property is the product of one’s life and liberty.
[/quote]

Private property is, ultimately, saying that something which isn’t yours, is now exclusively yours.

And I do believe in strong property rights. But with definite limitations. Man dying in your front yard and you don’t want to help? I want laws protecting emergency workers and good samaritans who ‘trespass’ in order to render aid. Does your property pollute the air and water, which eventually gets back to us all? I want regulations.

And, I do want some taxation, to maintain some size of government, in order to maintain the fiction that some guys created the minerals, water, air, and forests they then claimed as their own to use or sell.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Does your property pollute the air and water, which eventually gets back to us all?
[/quote]

If your use of your property damages mine, then you should have to pay me for the damage. Do you think that libertarians advocate one being able to destroy another’s car with a baseball bat without consequence?

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Does your property pollute the air and water, which eventually gets back to us all?
[/quote]

If your use of your property damages mine, then you should have to pay me for the damage. Do you think that libertarians advocate one being able to destroy another’s car with a baseball bat without consequence?[/quote]
Who will make Sloth pay for that damage? What if there’s a dispute over how much damage occurred or the compensation that should be rendered?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Does your property pollute the air and water, which eventually gets back to us all?
[/quote]

If your use of your property damages mine, then you should have to pay me for the damage. Do you think that libertarians advocate one being able to destroy another’s car with a baseball bat without consequence?[/quote]
Who will make Sloth pay for that damage? What if there’s a dispute over how much damage occurred or the compensation that should be rendered? [/quote]

Hey, get outta here with that logical thinking witchcraft.

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Who will make Sloth pay for that damage? What if there’s a dispute over how much damage occurred or the compensation that should be rendered? [/quote]

Hey, get outta here with that logical thinking witchcraft.[/quote]

What if a Mexican crosses the border, damages an Arizonan’s property, then goes back home? One World Government=the only solution

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Who will make Sloth pay for that damage? What if there’s a dispute over how much damage occurred or the compensation that should be rendered? [/quote]

Hey, get outta here with that logical thinking witchcraft.[/quote]

What if a Mexican crosses the border, damages an Arizonan’s property, then goes back home? One World Government=the only solution[/quote]

How about, answer the question?

What if Sloth doesn’t feel that he should pay. What if, just for the fuck of it, he feels that he’s the one who ought to be paid. What then?

What’s the point in creating these little gumdrop worlds and then refusing to answer the very simple, very direct questions that show them to be not gumdrop worlds after all but instead just so much empty and whimsical nonsense? What’s a political ideology worth when you can’t defend it for more than a few seconds without having to try and cook up some bits of minutiae that just about never happens in the real world but that might kinda sorta be a miniature and negligible real-world parallel to what, in your own ideology, is a gaping and fatal flaw?

I ask not because I disrespect you but because I think you’re intelligent and am thus all the more puzzled. Surely you don’t think that capitalism can survive without the contract? And surely you don’t think the contract can survive without contract law? Surely you don’t think that people wouldn’t pollute the whole thing to shit if there was nobody to tell them not to?

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]NickViar wrote:

[quote]smh_23 wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Who will make Sloth pay for that damage? What if there’s a dispute over how much damage occurred or the compensation that should be rendered? [/quote]

Hey, get outta here with that logical thinking witchcraft.[/quote]

What if a Mexican crosses the border, damages an Arizonan’s property, then goes back home? One World Government=the only solution[/quote]

How about, answer the question?

What if Sloth doesn’t feel that he should pay. What if, just for the fuck of it, he feels that he’s the one who ought to be paid. What then?

What’s the point in creating these little gumdrop worlds and then refusing to answer the very simple, very direct questions that show them to be not gumdrop worlds after all but instead just so much empty and whimsical nonsense? What’s a political ideology worth when you can’t defend it for more than a few seconds without having to try and cook up some bits of minutiae that just about never happens in the real world but that might kinda sorta be a miniature and negligible real-world parallel to what, in your own ideology, is a gaping and fatal flaw?I ask not because I disrespect you but because I think you’re intelligent and am thus all the more puzzled. Surely you don’t think that capitalism can survive without the contract? And surely you don’t think the contract can survive without contract law? Surely you don’t think that people wouldn’t pollute the whole thing to shit if there was nobody to tell them not to?[/quote]

I can give you the answer to how things should work, but I can’t tell you how they would.

The two parties should attempt to resolve the problem themselves. If that fails, their defense companies(assuming that is what the market creates) should attempt to reach a mutually beneficial agreement. If one or both of the disputants lacks a defense company, then he can deal directly with either the other person or the other person’s company.

As far as it being “minutiae that just about never happens in the real world” goes, why do statists get to dream up things with no idea of how common they would be in a stateless society, but libertarians can’t do the same(except for the fact that most of the situations HAVE occurred in a state)?

The contract is a critical aspect of capitalism. People are all that is there to enforce contracts in a state, just like in a stateless society.

If an anti-statist says, “This is how…,” then a statist will counter with, “What if…?” If a statist says, “This is how…,” then an anti-statist counters with a real world example of how states work, the statist will then say, “But that’s not the way it’s SUPPOSED to work.”

[quote]NickViar wrote:
why do statists get to dream up things with no idea of how common they would be in a stateless society[/quote]

No.

We know exactly how ubiquitous contract disputes would be–and that’s how ubiquitous they are now.

And that’s very ubiquitous.

Actually, with the parties knowing that their contracts mean jack shit and are almost invariably unenforceable, they’d likely be much, much more ubiquitous.

Whereas incidences of cross-border vandalism are virtually not existent.

So that point kind of slips away from you in a big way.

[quote]NickViar wrote:

The two parties should attempt to resolve the problem themselves. If that fails, their defense companies(assuming that is what the market creates) should attempt to reach a mutually beneficial agreement. If one or both of the disputants lacks a defense company, then he can deal directly with either the other person or the other person’s company.
[/quote]

And, again, both of them say, “Fuck you, I’m not giving an inch.”

Then what?

War, right?