Election Bet

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Do I think he is in any way shape or form sane or in his mind? Hell… fucking… no.

Why? If he’s out of his mind then who in this race can we consider sane?

All of the republicans except Paul want to continue exerting our military presence around the globe (insane in my book). All of the democrats want universal managed health care (which is beyond insane). Who do we have left to choose from?[/quote]

I never said any of the other candidates were sane, but I wouldn’t want a bunch of Ron Paul’s in congress + the presidency. They’d cut our government into shreds. The guy doesn’t just want out of Iraq, he wants out of everything. Anything starting with the work “Department” would be disbanded.

The man’s an intellectual, no doubt, but he’s a statist to the extreme. The reason I think he’d make a good President, is that he’d be limited in his radical movements, and would at least set the US on a less ‘war setting’ path.

[quote]kroby wrote:
What I find disturbing is that JeffR is trying to kick republicans that don’t agree with his candidate off a website.

You are committing a cardinal sin, JeffR. This is the Big Tent Party. Your exclusionary tactics will be the reason if the elephant doesn’t win next election. You do not disenfranchise your republican neighbors; you do not speak ill of your republican neighbors. Divided we fall. Are you even a republican?

In fact, this little pissing contest is symptomatic of how MY party has fractured due to

  1. the religious right thinking they run the party

  2. conservatives thinking they run the party

  3. dopes like you thinking to bully others, stifling legitimate discourse.

  4. Yes-men, cronyism and Abramof type corruption

Quit acting like a child with his tongue sticking out. You’re embarrassing yourself. Listen to the posters wearing the big boy pants and learn how develop a cogent train of thought instead of reverting to adolescent antagonism.

It also disturbs me that you have such a hard-on for Rudy.

If Newt joined the fray, your man would be crushed. Utterly. Ever hear him speak? Concise. Heart-felt. Intelligent. He loves his country without having to speak of 9/11. That man is a Reagan Republican. We’d all do well to wish him into the primaries. Next to this real American, your guy is nothing but paper and hot air.[/quote]

kroby,

You make many assumptions that aren’t correct.

I am VERY interested in Newt. I think he’s brilliant. Further, he’s had plenty of time to evaluate and learn. He understands Washington like no other.

However, (and it’s unfortunate), he brings the same negative perceptions that are going to sink rodham.

I do want to point out that you talk about and champion the idea of a “big tent.”

However, people like yourself aren’t willing to accept diverse ideas. When push comes to shove, you champion the most Conservative candidate.

That isn’t big tent thinking. Rudy’s candidacy is a very RARE chance for people to prove that they are open-minded. While it may not bother you, I am angered when the dems are able to get away with saying that the Republicans are dominated by narrow minded Christian Conservatives.

Here’s our chance to show that we aren’t threatened by a fresh approach.

I’m big enough and open minded enough to support a guy who has been married three times and will dress in drag to get a laugh.

If you aren’t, then you are proving the dems correct. You are showing that you cannot overcome your own personal biases. You can’t see past them. You really are only able to see things through an extremely narrow prism. Your entire perception is colored and, in my opinion, tainted by this narrowness.

I disagree with everyone who thinks that Rudy won’t win the primaries. I think the Republicans really are the more tolerant party.

However, there will be some kroby’s who will let their prejudices blind them to this opportunity.

Finally, wouldn’t you like to put in play some of those blue states?

I’m sick of surrendering the coasts.

JeffR

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

The man’s an intellectual, no doubt, but he’s a statist to the extreme. [/quote]

???

[quote]Beowolf wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Do I think he is in any way shape or form sane or in his mind? Hell… fucking… no.

Why? If he’s out of his mind then who in this race can we consider sane?

All of the republicans except Paul want to continue exerting our military presence around the globe (insane in my book). All of the democrats want universal managed health care (which is beyond insane). Who do we have left to choose from?

I never said any of the other candidates were sane, but I wouldn’t want a bunch of Ron Paul’s in congress + the presidency. They’d cut our government into shreds. The guy doesn’t just want out of Iraq, he wants out of everything. Anything starting with the work “Department” would be disbanded.

The man’s an intellectual, no doubt, but he’s a statist to the extreme. The reason I think he’d make a good President, is that he’d be limited in his radical movements, and would at least set the US on a less ‘war setting’ path.[/quote]

It’s called “libertarianism”. Or, traditional conservatism. It comprises a relatively small but dedicated faction of the political right which has existed for decades. At one point in time, it was the prevailing ideology on the right.

It always amazes me how someone’s views are separated from his ideology in order to attack his person. That just isn’t proper form.

If you call Ron Paul a nut because of what he wants to do, then that statement must be logically extended to all traditional conservatives, and consequentially, you taken upon yourself the massive burden of proof that comes with such a claim.

You don’t really believe him to be a statist, do you? I’ll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume that “anti-statist” was your intended choice of wording. If that was the case, you’d be totally correct.

You’re right, he doesn’t just want us out of Iraq. He does, indeed, want us out of “everything”. That’s what separates him from the pretenders. You have the privilege of choosing between statism and minarchism. However, you don’t have the ability to pick your preferred form of statism.

That’s because you lack the influence of powerful lobbying groups and corporations. Under statism, the factions with the most power and money exert the most influence on the system, and that will never be you or me (Harry Browne explained this first).

Nobody openly advocates increasing the size and scope of federal government (using those terms, at any rate). Small government is somewhat of a mom-and-apple-pie issue. So, why don’t libertarians fare better in elections? It’s a question that has been pondered many times. The answer is simple: consistency.

While most people can identify with the libertarianism on a limited basis, they also have certain government programs which they would not be willing to go without. Basically, they support reducing the government insomuch as it wouldn’t affect them. They want to cut other people’s pet projects, not their own. That is the nature of the hypocrisy which underlies the entire political system.

Only libertarians are consistent in their opposition to statism across the board. That’s precisely the reason why they are deemed “moonbats” by the ignorant and malicious alike.

Just think:
There are special interest groups in this country who benefit from the Iraq war and other military interventions, from the War on Poverty, the War on Drugs, the FDA, business subsidies, and every other government program on the books. In each case, somebody is benefiting from that program and probably has a lot of wealth tied into it.

It is in that person or group’s best interest to do whatever they can to ensure the continuation of their pet program.

So, you don’t like the Iraq War? Too bad. Halliburton and Blackwater are just as American as you, and they like it just fine. Why should anyone in the government listen to your opinion over theirs? They have power, while you are a nobody to them.

Statism inevitably turns into corporatism. Most people can see that that’s where we’re headed now. Unfortunately, the widespread notion propagated by the left (to which the right wing establishment offers no rebuttal) is that this system is the result of unbridled capitalism and the free market. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Laissez-faire and free markets are the antithesis of the corporatist system. Corporations can do no harm unless and until they are empowered by the government.

Hey Jeff, hate to break it to you, but Romney will put those blue states into play and he’ll do it without Rudy’s baggage. Not that he doesn’t have any of his own, but he is the more conservative option, without question.

Quick Q-and-A: What’s the biggest issue on the left this election? Universal healthcare. What’s Romney’s pet issue? The same.

Expect a Thompson/Romney ticket unless Ron Paul gets in the way.

[quote]JeffR wrote:

However, (and it’s unfortunate), he brings the same negative perceptions that are going to sink rodham.[/quote]

I don’t agree.

[quote]I do want to point out that you talk about and champion the idea of a “big tent.”

However, people like yourself aren’t willing to accept diverse ideas. When push comes to shove, you champion the most Conservative candidate.[/quote]

Diverse ideas? Name them.

[quote]That isn’t big tent thinking. Rudy’s candidacy is a very RARE chance for people to prove that they are open-minded. While it may not bother you, I am angered when the dems are able to get away with saying that the Republicans are dominated by narrow minded Christian Conservatives.

Here’s our chance to show that we aren’t threatened by a fresh approach.

I’m big enough and open minded enough to support a guy who has been married three times and will dress in drag to get a laugh.[/quote]

His marital situation is of no concern to me. Neither is the laughs he fished for when wearing a dress. Shoot, Redskin fans wear dresses. Big deal.

What? You’ve made very incorrect assumptions on how I perceive Rudy. Right now, he is the best candidate in the field. Cross over appeal, moderate thinking to pull off partisanship and he has a strong persona. All very good for our country and our party. Is he the best republican? No. Until this republican announces his intent… Rudy can win.

[quote]I disagree with everyone who thinks that Rudy won’t win the primaries. I think the Republicans really are the more tolerant party.

However, there will be some kroby’s who will let their prejudices blind them to this opportunity.[/quote]

Prejudices? Name them. Better yet, please give direct links to these words I’ve uttered that deride Rudy. You can’t, because I have not. Romney is wishy-washy. Ron Paul? Who? McCain? Don’t make me laugh! Never had I said an ill word of Rudy or his candidacy.

[quote]Finally, wouldn’t you like to put in play some of those blue states?

I’m sick of surrendering the coasts.

JeffR

[/quote]

I was interested in him when he left office years ago. I’m interested in other people, too. And that’s my prerogative. I don’t cheer lead. I keep my cards close to the vest. I have nothing to prove to anyone.

Why do you? This is no game.

I just realized that this would be a much friendlier board if this bet holds. It doesn’t even matter WHO got kicked off, as long as enough people DID.

-Gendou

kroby,

Please read this from your recent post.

This certainly seems like you aren’t “keeping your cards close” to your vest.

You’ve made up your mind.

Too bad.

[quote]kroby wrote:
It also disturbs me that you have such a hard-on for Rudy.

If Newt joined the fray, your man would be crushed. Utterly. Ever hear him speak? Concise. Heart-felt. Intelligent. He loves his country without having to speak of 9/11. That man is a Reagan Republican. We’d all do well to wish him into the primaries. Next to this real American, your guy is nothing but paper and hot air.[/quote]

JeffR

[quote]gendou57 wrote:
I just realized that this would be a much friendlier board if this bet holds. It doesn’t even matter WHO got kicked off, as long as enough people DID.

-Gendou[/quote]

Bingo.

Making people put their cards on the table and clearing away the trash.

It’s a win-win for everyone.

It gives you an idea of how confident people trully are in their candidates. It also gives you a feel for lack/sack of the people on this board.

Time to pony up, Gendou.

JeffR