[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
This is the core of the argument, and the part that I find most confounding. It amazes me that the United States is in the minority in believing that the right of self defense extends not just to the strong, but everyone, including the oppressed, weak, sick and old.
We believe (more or less) that people have the right to defend themselves, we just don’t equate that to promoting the ownership of guns.
More of less? Which is it? Either people have a right to protect themselves, or they don’t.
It seems that you are saying that government’s role of protecting the general public from potential risk of misuse of guns trumps the individual right to self defense. That’s the beauty of the 2nd Amendment, it codifies the priority of the individual right to self defense.
As I stated earlier it is impossible to right a list of human rights that applies in all situations. Outside of rare situations though I would agree that an individual has the right to defend themselves.
And yes, to quote Spock, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the individual.
Star Trek is a fucking TV show you twit. There are no rights for a group, only individuaL rights.
I know it is a tv show, it was a joke you dolt. I didn’t say their were rights for a group, I said there were needs. Sometimes an individuals rights need to be put to one side in order to ensure the best outcome for the group. Otherwise how can you justify locking up an aggressive violent criminal, you are infringing his rights as an individual for the good of the general public.
It’s not that hard a concept.[/quote]
It’s not the same, again you twit. A criminal who is tried and convicted is different than taking away the rights of a law abiding citizen. If you cannot see the difference, then you’re the dolt.
Most rapes are committed by men, so lock them up and castrate them. blacks in the USA from 17-35 commit a higher % of crimes per race, so lock them up. Mothers are statistically more likely to murder their kids than fathers, so do something to them.
Inn this country we have individual rights, the 2nd amendmant is one of them. We don’t infringe on these rights if you don’t break the law. A convicted incarcerated criminal is a whole different ball of wax.
Still not sure I buy the armed populace keeping the Government in check theory. If it is true, I am terrified to think what the US government would be up to if gun bans ever did get passed.
But I agree that the arguments are many and complex. I would never presume to tell people how to live their lives, however on the flip side, as you can probably tell, I am happy to give my opinion on an issue.[/quote]
I’ll be honest, I do somewhat question the armed populace vs. government theory, especially in the present political climate (ie democracy). However, I’m thinking (lets use this recession as an example, as in it turns to global meltdown) if something gets radically out of control and the government completely oversteps its bounds, then god forbid a revolution may be necessary. I personally do not see this happening in my lifetime, but who really knows. I doubt that many people in the colonies foresaw that revolution in their lifetimes until it actually happened.
And on a side note, not every American is completely pro-gun “dead hands”. My roommate who spent a year in China informed me that many foreigners seem to think that ever single person in the US is packing at all time which is, believe it or not, untrue. In fact out of my group of friends in high school, I’m pretty much the only one in favor of reasonable controls on gun ownership, whereas almost all of them would have no problem with a complete gun ban. Of course, I think they are pretty much all kool-aid drinkers who haven’t ventured into the real world, so take it for what it is.
“The issue of “home defense” or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. A study of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998).”
The problem with statistics like this is that they do not measure the intangible effect of having an armed populace. For instance, what if the threat of the owner having guns kept 99/100 potential intruders from even attempting a burglary? An exaggeration no doubt, but its a number you could never measure. Also, are there any statistics on the number of home firearms that are never fired once? Not trying to be an ass, just curious, as I think that could also shed some light on the subject.
As for the defense against the government, you must look at an armed population as a whole, not individuals, who will give the government pause. We don’t want a single armed individual to be able to dictate to the government how to operate, but when millions of Americans stand armed against possible tyranny, it will help keep them in check before going too far.
However, in an effort to bring some sanity to this discussion, I think we can all agree with Cockney that a gun can escalate an already tense situation into a fatal one that could be averted if there was no access to a gun. On the other hand, Cockney should realize that this is not the only situation that needs to be weighed in our overarching “are guns good for society analysis”. Many other situations, as pointed out above in great detail, need to be considered in favor of gun ownership or at least a sane discussion of it.
And I am probably a lot more moderate than most of the posters here. I do not own a gun and probably never will, but in the end who am I to tell everyone else how they should live their lives?
[/quote]
Estimates have been made of over 2 million legal uses of firearms in preventing crime per year in the USA. In most of these cases a shot is never fired. In case you’re interested, the NRA publishes 5-10 stories of the legal use in preventing or stopping a crime every month in their magazine.
These are from published newspaper accounts .
the rpoblem I have with debates such as this is that they are stupid. there are plenty of anti and pro gun books out there. Read some. try to tear the anti gun articles or pro gun articles apart. Read what the founding father’s said. What law enforcement trainers said. historians from both sides. See how the arguments stack up.
I did, and this is why this British twit is a twit. He’s spouting off from a position of opinion with no knowledge. He wants to argue, not learn. I’ve done my studying, and now I’m teaching my kids about this stuff. they can shoot safely and well and know about our 2nd amendment. They know why. they have read about it. Time to teach my kids about this stuff.
I don’t debate. I learn from those who know more, then teach those who want to learn.
…Still not sure I buy the armed populace keeping the Government in check theory…
You think it’s just a theory? If so, your knowledge of history is woeful. And if your knowledge of history is woeful then your opinion on politics and world affairs is basically worthless.[/quote]
Yep, maybe he should eb reminded how two snipers, 18 and 19 years of age took a shot at the British commander in the War of 1812. After the second shot him through the neck, the war was basically over. This was after they had already taken D.C. and were ehading to Baltimore.
The boys died,but their efforts lead directly tot he defeat oft he British. They were just two young guys who could shoot straight.
But he’s an idiot Push and should stick to cricket, tea, and regular denstist appointments, being British and such.
tom, no need to call someone an idiot for disagreeing with you. Maybe you are prepared to read a bit of history (written by someone with a particular viewpoint) and then never question anything but not everyone is as much of a sheep as you (borrowing a phrase from people on this thread.)
Still waiting for someone to try and discuss the stats that I have posted 3 times. I guess you don’t want to because it interupts your rose tinted view.
And TBT I am very aware of the various viewpoints in the US, however it is strange that as a country there are so many people who are so attached to guns.
dude, I don’t claim to understand the American Socio-political scene so well. That is excactly the point. I have not been promoting gun control (I have even stated that I don’t think it would change much in the US) what I have been doing is stating that I don’t understand why Americans in general are so attached to guns. I am not alone in this, most of the world feels the same.
Americans (with a number of exceptions) equate liberty to having a gun. The rest of the world equates liberty to not needing a gun.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu wrote:
Part of the point that I was trying to make is that random violence in Britain is quite common. But many Brits try to put up this front that because the number of people who get shot is low that Britain is somehow safe.
What you do see in Britain is other types of violence. Two of Britain’s most popular national past times are Glassing and Happy Slapping.
Glassing which is very common involves breaking a bottle or a glass and then repeatedly jamming the jagged glass into someones face so they are permanently disfigured. The provocation for such a vicious attack can be merely bumping into someone in a crowded pub. In America glassing is not as common because people know better.
No, glassing is any time that someone uses a glass or bottle as a weapon in a bar fight. It is not ‘very common’ it is in fact very rare, however it does happen, and more than it should. [/quote]
In Britain the average rate of young women being admitted to a hospital A&E for treatment of glassing wounds is one to two per week. For men the average is even higher.
Here are two from Liverpool in one week.
A WOMAN needed 12 stitches after being glassed on a night out.
The young woman was seen arguing with another woman before she had a glass shoved in her face in Coast Bar, Waverley Street, Southport.
A 25-YEAR-OLD woman accused of glassing a part-time model in the face has denied being jealous of her.
Jenny Walker is left with permanent scarring after a New Year?s Eve attack at the then Elephant Pub in Woolton, now known as Casa del Cocodrilo.
A NEWBURY pub has agreed to use plastic glasses following two glassing incidents this year.
A DRUNKEN thug who glassed a woman and then attacked her husband in a west Wiltshire nightclub has been jailed for eight months.
A PRETTY hairdresser told yesterday how a glassing attack left her with such horrific facial scars she was forced to give up her job.
Louise Reeves, 21, needed more than 60 stitches and was almost blinded when Samantha Attrill slashed her with a broken bottle.
Before the nightclub attack she had been offered modelling work but her dreams of a career as a fashion model have also now been shattered.
Attrill, 23, was jailed for four years this week after a jury found her guilty of malicious wounding.
Research shows that 5,000 people a year fall victim to bottle and glass attacks in Britain, prompting calls for a full ban on all glass in pubs and clubs.
AN Exeter City Council worker who lied to police about being in a nightspot when a woman was left permanently scarred in a glass attack, said he was the victim of mistaken identity.
A glass was used in an attack on Christine Pearce, 23, in the Timepiece club, causing cuts to her face which required stitches, Exeter Crown Court heard. She had scarring near her nose and is now unable to wear contact lenses.
Girl, 14, nearly blinded by glass thugs at carnival
A MOTHER of two launched an unprovoked glass attack on a woman in a Newton Abbot pub, cutting open her head.
But a judge at Exeter Crown Court spared Catherine Regan, 37, from serving a prison sentence.
Recorder Michael Allen QC told Regan, of Greenway Road, Newton Abbot: "I have to strain to stop sending you to custody and the victim may wonder why that is.
"The vast majority of judges would take that course but that would have the Draconian effect of you losing custody of your children when they are at a vulnerable age.
GLASS and bottle attacks in Gwent have soared by 130 per cent amid claims by a leading police officer that cheap booze and supermarket offers could be to blame.
In 2007, there were 33 incidents involving bottles and glasses, but this year?s figures show the number of attacks has increased to 76 incidents.
Attacks in Newport have also increased from 14 to 26 reported incidents, a rise of almost 86 per cent, despite an Argus campaign to encourage pubs to use plastic glasses.
Published Date: 01 December 2007
A WOMAN was left needing reconstructive surgery to her face after a glassing attack outside a pub, a crown court heard.
A YOUNG mother faces having a baby in prison after being locked up for 21 months for slicing a young girl?s face with a glass.
The court heard that teenage victim Nina Belarbi had been outside the Guinea Butt pub in Tunbridge Wells in January 2007 when she saw Skilton, 20.
Valeria Swift, prosecuting, said Miss Belarbi approached Skilton about an argument she had with others, and Skilton became aggressive.
Miss Belarbi told her to back off and calm down, but that Skilton?s boyfriend was urging her to fight.
Skilton grabbed a bottle, smashed it, and then picked up pieces of glass and swiped it across the victim?s face.
Miss Belarbi was left with blood pouring form her left cheek and needed of 20 stitches.
Published Date: 25 August 2008
A MODEL scarred for life by a glass attack to the face is planning to return to the spotlight, it was reported today.
Joanne Minto, 20, feared she would have to give up a promising career in the modelling industry after her face was cut to shreds and she was blinded in one eye in a drunken attack.
NRL star faces lesser ?glassing? charge
LEAGUE star Greg Bird, back from holidaying with the girlfriend he allegedly glassed, has had a charge against him downgraded.
THIS video-grab photograph shows a man fleeing a city nightclub after viciously attacking a woman with a glass, leaving her permanently scarred.
A jury at Exeter Crown Court yesterday found 23-year-old Doucoure, of Haldon Road, St David’s, guilty of wounding Christine Pearce with intent to cause her grievous bodily harm.
Miss Pearce, also 23, told the court how Doucoure approached her, began swearing and then attacked her with the glass, at the club in Little Castle Street, on June 28 last year.
She said the defendant was a distant acquaintance and she had rebuffed his attentions at another nightclub in the past.
The victim was led to an ambulance, blood pouring from her face after suffering cuts to one of her eyes and her nose.
Detective Constable Blain Bishop told the Echo after the verdict: "This was a horrific incident, particularly for such a young woman, who has been badly scarred across her face and it has had a traumatic effect on her. She still has fragments of glass embedded in her eye to this day.
TWO young Bournemouth women have each been sentenced to 12 months detention after being convicted of separate glassing incidents that left their female victims scarred for life.
I don’t know if it will be difficult for all the “rootin tootin” “gun toting” “gun culture” “redneck cowboys” on this forum to believe but it appears that Australians engage in this activity too. Imagine that.
A WOMAN glassed in the face and now blind in one eye has demanded pubs and clubs be forced to use toughened plastic cups.
The 20-year-old’s call follows plans by police to encourage Sydney CBD pubs and clubs to consider changing to the plastic alternative late at night.
Ms Kelley is the fourth person to be glassed in NSW in less than three weeks. On Melbourne Cup night a young man suffered severe cuts to the face when struck with a glass at a Surry Hills pub.
And last Friday, a 19-year-old Tamworth teenager was rushed to hospital after being allegedly hit with a schooner glass at a hotel.
On October 13 an off-duty police officer was hit in the eye with a glass at a city pub when his alleged attacker made an unwanted advance towards one of his colleagues.
NSW police have blamed warmer weather for a spate of weekend glassing attacks
KRYSTELLE Kelley’s life changed forever when a glass was smashed into her face at a nightclub.
The 21-year-old - blinded in one eye and facing years of plastic surgery - yesterday slammed the sale of T-shirts glorifying glassing.
Then there is the British sport known as happy slapping. What this involves is a group of people attacking someone and beating them to the ground. Then they take turns kicking their victims head like it’s a soccer ball. A lot of people have died from this.
No, happy slapping is attacking a random stranger and filming it on your camera phone, normally with the intention of uploading the video to youtube.
The attack ranges from literally just a light slap through to a disgusting assault, yes it is something that has been on the increase and yes it is a problem but to say it is uniquely British is utter tosh. There are plenty of youtube videos of American kids attacking each other randomly or otherwise. I can’t remember the last time a group of British schoolgirls held another girl hostage and filmed themselves beating her over a period of hrs. [/quote]
What happened to her is not as bad as what happened to this 19 year old “gang glassing” victim from Britain where this kind of attack is “very rare”.
These are the horrific injuries a teenager suffered when she was glassed at a nightclub.
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Horror image of ‘girl gang glassing’ victim
Tuesday, October 28, 2008
These are the horrific injuries a teenager suffered when she was glassed at a nightclub.
Glassing victim
The 19-year-old needed 30 stitches to her face, neck and shoulders.
She told how she was cornered in the toilets by a gang of women who hit her several times with a broken glass.
Doctors said I was lucky not to lose my eye.’
[Quote]
One was a family man named Gary Newlove, he confronted a group of teenagers who vandalized his car so his family had to helplessly watch him kicked to death in their driveway. In America housewives can defend their family which the British think is terrible.
The sentences the killers got were a joke. The leader of the attack got 17 years and is appealing because it exceeds the sentencing guidelines.
One of the gang who kicked father-of-three Garry Newlove to death is considering an appeal against his conviction and his 17 year jail sentence, his solicitor has said.
Adam Swellings, 19, from Crewe, was jailed for life with a recommendation he serve a minimum of 17 years, for a killing that sparked outrage and a national debate about Britain?s yob culture.
Patrick Heald, Swellings’ solicitor, said however that the term had gone beyond parliament’s recommended tariff of 15 years for similar crimes.
Yes this attack was disgusting, has nothing to do with US attitudes to guns though. Can’t remember the last time a group of British schoolkids turned up to school with automatic weapons and slaughtered their classmates. [/quote]
The murder of Rhys Milford Jones[1] (born 27 September 1995) occurred on 22 August 2007 in Liverpool, England, when he was shot in the back.[2] An 18-year-old youth, Sean Mercer, went on trial on 2 October 2008[3] and was convicted of murder on 16th December, 2008.[
[quote]
The British have made a mess of their own country but stubbornly refuse to admit it. Then we get British twats like Cockney Blue who want to spread British stupidity to other countries. Then they wonder why we get annoyed at their bullshit.
I have openly admited that there are lots of problems in Britain so not sure where you get that from.[/quote]
Where I get that from is you stated that you are working to affect public policy in Mexico vis-a-vis civilian ownership of firearms.
Also Amnesty International sponsored a referendum on gun ownership in Brazil that was rejected by %67 of the electorate.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
So if someone passes a law that says you can’t have a gun, and you object and hang on to your gun (as many people here are saying they would). You are now a criminal, ergo you have no rights.
So if “someone” (like Washington DC) passes a law that says “you” (like Dick Heller) can’t have a gun, and “you” (Dick Heller) object, then “you” (Dick Heller) sue the government (imagine that) which results in someone else (US Supreme Court) overturning the unconstitutional law. There’s a process. We don’t just all become criminals.
That’s cool and all by the book, but it’s hardly “from my cold dead hands” is it. More like "you’ll hear from my lawyer, something that I understand that Americans say quited a lot.[/quote]
The great thing about America is that people can get justice in the courts. Thanks to that silly written constitution. So of course we use lawyers it’s much more civilized, old boy.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
November 2008 report of The US Joint Forces Command. Mexico is under pressure from drug cartels and gangs and is danger of collapse in the next few years.
Lots of law abiding mexicans are gonna wish they had a gun.
You might try reading that report again.
First page, first paragraph:
‘This document is speculative in nature and does not suppose to predict what will happen in the next 25 years.’[/quote]
They have big problems in Mexico. The average Mexican is defenseless, but they cannot turn to the police for protection.
Mexican drug war ‘alarming’ U.S. officials
MEXICO CITY ? Virtually every day now there are disturbing headlines here about the assassination of yet another Mexican official, gangland-style shootouts in broad daylight, the gruesome discoveries of kidnapped and tortured murder victims ? many of them beheaded ? and police chiefs quitting their jobs and fleeing the country in terror.
Since Mexican President Felipe Calderon vowed a year and a half ago to confront the drug cartels and take back vast areas of the country that these powerful criminals have controlled for years, more than 4,000 people have been killed. The murder victims include some 500 police officers, soldiers, mayors and other officials.
[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
TBT4ver wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Still not sure I buy the armed populace keeping the Government in check theory. If it is true, I am terrified to think what the US government would be up to if gun bans ever did get passed.[/quote]
Looking at Britain we can see that a disarmed populace certainly can’t keep the government in check.
In Mexico we can really see just how bad things can get.
