Easier to Kill w/ a Gun Than W/out a Gun

Listen Push, there is no need to call me a pussy. I have manned up and discussed the points thrown at me. You are the one bleating on like a little school girl about someone holding an opinion that differs from yours on an internet forum about world issues and politics.

How is it arrogant of me to suggest that maybe, just maybe you could try either adding to the debate or shutting your cake hole and fucking off instead of steaming in and firing off a load of insults?

For you to be picking on me I would have to feel intimidated by you. Obviously this is the internet so there is no physical intimidation (though I doubt there would be face to face either.) That only leaves mental intimidation, and, arrogant perhaps, I seriously doubt based on your posts so far that you have anything approaching the mental acuity to intimidate me through shear force of intelligence.

where do you get that from? The only place that I have had any real argument with anyone is on a couple of threads about guns.

On the combat sports pages I have disagreed about some assesments of fighters and tactics but broadly people have agreed with me. So really not sure what your point is.

On this thread, I am not the one whining.

And as for short time on here, you might want to check out the join dates…

[quote]orion wrote:
MrRezister wrote:
What? They couldn’t possibly be safer in Texas. There are a bunch of crazy Americans there who own guns!

Anyway, I really get a kick out of Cockney coming in here and wailing about how dangerous it must be to live in the US if we all need guns. I’d say that Britain must have the TRULY VIOLENT populace, if we can’t trust the average citizen there with the means to reliably protect himself and his family without worrying about him going on a killing spree.

Had you ever seen British teenagers on a drinking binge during their holidays you would know that his worries are not completely unsubstantiated.[/quote]

This is because there is a mentality amongst the British that if someone gets intoxicated they are not responsible for their actions. So the kiddies use alcohol as an excuse to go buck wild.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
suruppak: Very interesting about Canada vs US in the last post.

Any chance of a link to the source?

Also, if you are allowed to have a gun, then I seen no reason why you shouldn’t have concealed carry.

Sifu: In the Harriot Harman picture what you fail to mention is that she is wearing a stabproof vest, not bulletproof. And the reason that she is wearing it is that she is on a visit with the police. They had been talking about how light the new vest was, so she put one on. Great tabloid journalism there bud. [/quote]

I didn’t say the body armor was bulletproof, though those stabproof vests will resist some of the lower caliber bullets. She was visiting the police to go on a tour of her constituency. So she was merely tried on a vest, found it was so light that she forgot all about it and went on tour of her constituency with several cops looking like she is out looking for Jack the Ripper. Your attempt at spinning that failed.

[quote]

And I love that you think Mexico is totally lawless except for the gun laws which no-one dares break. Great consistant arguing!

Push: take a chill pill, you get so bent out of shape at the very audacity of someone disagreeing with you that I really wonder why you are on a discussion forum in the first place.

Thanks for the link, found one for you so that you can wack off over the pictures of big guns
http://findmyhobby.com/collecting/militaria/

Orion: Very true. The scally kids were far more dangerous than the drugs gangs when I was living in Manchester. [/quote]

So you admit that there is a problem with gangs of dangerous yobo’s but you don’t think that people living in a community that is being terrorized by them should be allowed to defend themselves.

That is why I hate people like you. Because you don’t give a fuck about the problems that your ideology causes for people.

[quote]
MrRezister: The average Brit reads the sun and voted for Tony Blair, I wouldn’t trust them with a sharpened pencil let alone a firearm. [/quote]

Lovely. Tony Bliar is the one who brought in the firearms act as soon as he became PM. Crime in the UK has increased every year since.

A government that refuses to trust it’s own citizens is not a government the people can trust. Britain has become a police state.

Accidents will happen. That is life. I would suggest that you grow up and get over it. But you won’t because it gives you an excuse to push your facist bullshit on people.

A handful of accidents does not override the greater good that is served by people being able to defend themselves. The second amendment allows ordinary citizens the ability to play a role maintaining law and order in America in a way that people in Britain can’t.

In Britain a lot of crime goes unreported to the police because people are afraid of retaliation and they have no way of protecting themselves.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
And here is some oposition to the previous link

Opposition
Academic studies that have rejected Lott’s conclusions include the following. With the exception of the 2003 study by John J. Donohue, these studies generally contend that there seems to be little or no effect on crime from the passage of license-to-carry laws. Donohue’s 2003 study finds an increase in violence. (This is contradicted by Moody and Marvell’s September 2008 study in Econ Journal Watch; a response from Donohue and Ayres will be forthcoming in the January 2009 issue.)

David Hemenway, ‘Review of More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun-Control Laws’, New England Journal of Medicine, 1998.[10] Hemenway’s review states
Lott finds, for example, that both increasing the rate of unemployment and reducing income reduces the rate of violent crimes and that reducing the number of black women 40 years old or older (who are rarely either perpetrators or victims of murder) substantially increases murder rates. Indeed, according to Lott’s results, getting rid of older black women will lead to a more dramatic rise in homicide rates than increasing arrest rates or enacting shall-issue laws
Rutgers sociology professor Ted Goertzel stated that “Lott?s massive data set was simply unsuitable for his task”, and that he “compar[ed] trends in Idaho and West Virginia and Mississippi with trends in Washington, D.C. and New York City” without proper statistical controls. He alleged that econometric methods are susceptible to misuse and can even become junk science. [11]
Ian Ayres, Yale Law School, and John Donohue, Stanford Law School, ‘Shooting Down the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis’. Stanford Law Review, 2003.[12]
Jens Ludwig, Georgetown University, “Concealed-Gun-Carrying Laws and Violent Crime: Evidence from State Panel Data”, published in International Review of Law and Economics, 1998.[13].
Dan Black and Daniel Nagin, “Do ‘Right-to-Carry’ Laws Deter Violent Crime?” Journal of Legal Studies, Vol. 27, No. 1, pp. 209-213 (January 1998).
Mark Duggan, University of Chicago, “More Guns, More Crime,” National Bureau of Economic Research, NBER Working Paper No. W7967, October 2000, later published in Journal of Political Economy.[14]
Steven Levitt, University of Chicago, ‘Understanding Why Crime Fell in the 1990s: Four Factors that Explain the Decline and Six that Do Not’. Journal of Economic Perspectives, 2004.[15] Levitt lists ‘Laws allowing a right to carry concealed weapons’ as number five in his list of ‘Six Factors that Played Little or No Role in the Crime Decline’.
Jeffrey Miron, Boston University, ‘Violence, Guns, and Drugs: A Cross-Country Analysis’. The Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001.[16]
Tomislav V. Kovandzic and Thomas B. Marvell, “Right-To-Carry Concealed Firearms and Violent Crime: Crime Control Through Gun Decontrol?” Criminology and Public Policy 2, (2003) pages 363-396.
John J. Donahue III, Stanford Law School, ‘The Final Bullet in the Body of the More Guns, Less Crime Hypothesis’, Criminology and Public Policy, 2003.[17]

[edit] Ambiguous results
Academic studies that have both agreed and disagreed with aspects of Lott’s conclusions include the following.

David E. Olson, Loyola University Chicago, and Michael D. Maltz, University of Illinois at Chicago, “Right-to-carry concealed weapons laws and homicide in large U.S. counties: the effect on weapon types, victim characteristics, and victim-offender relationships,” The Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001.[18] [/quote]

You can download Lott’s 29 page rebuttal here. It is an interesting read.

Abstract:
Ian Ayres and John Donohue (1999) provide a useful and positive review of my book “More Guns, Less Crime,” and I agree with the directions in which they believe that more work can be done. Yet, there are some serious factual errors in their review and they also never discuss some of the strongest evidence. Finally, I was disappointed that they think that I had not responded to some previous objections raised to my research. Hopefully this response can help explain why these criticisms were mistaken.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
I do worry about solving Mexico and Britain’s problems. I am actively envolved in trying to improve the situation in Mexico. [/quote]

Leave the Mexicans alone! Isn’t it enough that you liberals have ruined Britain? Why do you have to bring your bullshit to Mexico?

[quote]
But what you have to remember Push, is that this is a discussion forum. For discussing things. This area is called ‘politics and world issues.’ It is on the internet and therefore open to people from all over the world to post on. That’s one of the great things about the internet.

As I have repeatedly stated, having a different background can give you a different perspective on a situation which leads to an interesting discussion.

I have learnt some interesting things by having the discussion.

If you haven’t, feel free to not read the thread. Feel free to read one of the thousands of others.

Or better yet, close yourself up in your house, switch off all forms of media and totally avoid having to hear, read or see anyone’s opinion other than your own. [/quote]

Sifu, when I talk about scally kids in Manchester I am talking about 13 and 14 year olds, it was a joke.

Harman was wearing the vest so as to feel like one of the team (bobbies on the beat in London wear stab vests as a standard)

And what do you think Blair changed? I hate the guy but you can’t blaim him for the UK not having guns.

You can still own a gun in the UK with a license, to get a license you need to show that you are responsible and that you have a need for the gun. Since 1946, self defence has not been seen as a reason to have a gun.

Thanks for the Link by the way.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
Sifu, when I talk about scally kids in Manchester I am talking about 13 and 14 year olds, it was a joke.

Harman was wearing the vest so as to feel like one of the team (bobbies on the beat in London wear stab vests as a standard)

And what do you think Blair changed? I hate the guy but you can’t blaim him for the UK not having guns. [/quote]

Either you don’t know what are you talking about or you are just a liar. Because the 1997 gun control act was one of the first things Nulabour did when they came to power.

Since then they have steadily been ratcheting up the apparatus of a police state. Which disproves your argument that the right to own guns isn’t an impediment to governmental tyranny, because Nulabour certainly thought they were.

Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 - Wikipedia

The Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 was the second of two Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom from 1997 that amended the regulation of firearms within the United Kingdom. The other Act was the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997. It was introduced by the new Labour government of Tony Blair.

[quote]
You can still own a gun in the UK with a license, to get a license you need to show that you are responsible and that you have a need for the gun. Since 1946, self defence has not been seen as a reason to have a gun.

Thanks for the Link by the way. [/quote]

No you have to jump through hoops and go through a very lengthy process where you have to convince the police that you need a gun, you have to get your doctor’s approval, you have to get character references.

Handguns are virtually impossible for the average person to own.

Self defense is the most important reason of all to own a gun. The British saying that self defense is not a reason to own a gun just shows how out of touch with reality the British are.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
…You can still own a gun in the UK with a license, to get a license you need to show that you are responsible and that you have a need for the gun…

Common citizen legally procuring handgun for personal self defense in Britain = Camel passing through the eye of a needle.[/quote]

Common criminals on the other hand, no problem. The gun of choice is the Russian made Baikal.

[quote]Loose Tool wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
…You can still own a gun in the UK with a license, to get a license you need to show that you are responsible and that you have a need for the gun…

Common citizen legally procuring handgun for personal self defense in Britain = Camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Common criminals on the other hand, no problem. The gun of choice is the Russian made Baikal.

[/quote]

I love how the writer of this piece keeps referring to the Baikal automatic pistol as a “revolver.” People who don’t know what they’re talking about really shouldn’t be allowed to report the news.

[quote]Sifu wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
Either you don’t know what are you talking about or you are just a liar. Because the 1997 gun control act was one of the first things Nulabour did when they came to power.

Since then they have steadily been ratcheting up the apparatus of a police state. Which disproves your argument that the right to own guns isn’t an impediment to governmental tyranny, because Nulabour certainly thought they were.

Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 - Wikipedia

The Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 was the second of two Acts of the Parliament of the United Kingdom from 1997 that amended the regulation of firearms within the United Kingdom. The other Act was the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997. It was introduced by the new Labour government of Tony Blair.
[/quote]

No, you don’t know what you are talking about, effectively you could not own a handgun in the UK before teh regulation in 1997, the only real exception was sports shooting and museum type collectors.

The new regulation made no real terms change to the amount of hand guns in circulation in the UK because people didn’t have them before that date.

I know, and this was the case before the 1997 change to the law.

This is the funemental argument that we have been talking about all along. You beleive this to be true, I do not. Possibly it is you that is out of touch because the majority of the world holds a different view to you.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
…You can still own a gun in the UK with a license, to get a license you need to show that you are responsible and that you have a need for the gun…

Common citizen legally procuring handgun for personal self defense in Britain = Camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Common criminals on the other hand, no problem. The gun of choice is the Russian made Baikal.

I love how the writer of this piece keeps referring to the Baikal automatic pistol as a “revolver.” People who don’t know what they’re talking about really shouldn’t be allowed to report the news.[/quote]

There would be no reporters and no news. Actually, that would be a good thing.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
…You can still own a gun in the UK with a license, to get a license you need to show that you are responsible and that you have a need for the gun…

Common citizen legally procuring handgun for personal self defense in Britain = Camel passing through the eye of a needle.

Common criminals on the other hand, no problem. The gun of choice is the Russian made Baikal.

I love how the writer of this piece keeps referring to the Baikal automatic pistol as a “revolver.” People who don’t know what they’re talking about really shouldn’t be allowed to report the news.[/quote]

Wait a minute, I thought guns were banned in Britain!?! You mean to tell me that the criminals have them anyway???

Edit:
This is my favorite part of the article:

Yep. See my post earlier.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

I love how the writer of this piece keeps referring to the Baikal automatic pistol as a “revolver.” People who don’t know what they’re talking about really shouldn’t be allowed to report the news.[/quote]

Don’t know about the US but if you stopped all the journalists in the UK from writing about things they don’t know about, the papers would be pretty empty.

This is an article in a national paper talking about how shocking two gang on gang shootings in 18 months are. I would guess that in many cities in the US this wouldn’t even make a local paper.

…i would think that if one lived in a country where you run the risk of a violent death or serious physical harm each day, or where the expectation of this is present, personal protection in the form of a concealed weapon is the wisest thing…

…that i personally would never want to live in a country like that is another matter…

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:

Self defense is the most important reason of all to own a gun. The British saying that self defense is not a reason to own a gun just shows how out of touch with reality the British are.

This is the funemental argument that we have been talking about all along. You beleive this to be true, I do not. Possibly it is you that is out of touch because the majority of the world holds a different view to you.[/quote]

This is the core of the argument, and the part that I find most confounding. It amazes me that the United States is in the minority in believing that the right of self defense extends not just to the strong, but everyone, including the oppressed, weak, sick and old.