[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Every single defense the pro pink dress crowd made in this thread can be used to justify the Sombrero Six Year Old.[/quote]
In a world full of LSD induced ‘slippery slopes’, I completely agree with you.[/quote]
Did you miss the part where we were talking about an elementary school boy wearing a princess costume to school every day and how we are supposed to support such behavior? I agree, we’re in mid-slide down a greased garbage chute already.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Every single defense the pro pink dress crowd made in this thread can be used to justify the Sombrero Six Year Old.[/quote]
In a world full of LSD induced ‘slippery slopes’, I completely agree with you.[/quote]
Did you miss the part where we were talking about an elementary school boy wearing a princess costume to school every day and how we are supposed to support such behavior? I agree, we’re in mid-slide down a greased garbage chute already.
[/quote]
Nope, I didn’t miss the topic at hand, just pointing out the obvious.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
The father wearing a skirt? I think now the kid is going to be bullied for being a fag and for his father also being a fag. His dad almost certainly made it worse for him. You’d never know it from all the squishy happy touchy feely support I saw in the comments to that article when I first read it a couple of weeks earlier, but I live in real people world, where actions actually have consequences.[/quote]
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.
It can be argued that parents with similar thinking as yours, either deliberately or not, instigate negative behaviour in their own children rather than teach them acceptance and tolerance for other children’s weird behaviour. Children with similar train of thoughts as yours will obviously bully other kids their parents deemed ‘‘abnormal’’ and for not conforming to society standards. The same can be said with race.
If children were not taught to make fun of the ‘‘strange’’ ones, and not to despise them, there would certainly not be any bullying, and our society would perhaps be a better place.
Baby boy A dressed in blue doesn’t give a shit about Baby Boy B dressed in pink. However, mother A may judge Mother B, and then teaches her son to be a judgemental son of a bitch and create intolerance in his mind as he grows up. It is a vicious circle. Standards have been set of course, but those standards can be broken. Women weren’t allowed to wear trousers centuries ago. Society’s criteria have changed throughout times, they are still changing, and will continuously evolve. My guess is that, in 50, 100 years from now, no one will give a shit whether a boy wears a dress every day at school once the judgemental mentality, homophobia, I read here will almost be eradicated.
I know, yeah, I sound like John Lenon. Fuck, I can’t help it. I’m a dreamer. Shoot me.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.[/quote]
My dad would never have let me go to school in a dress, and he sure as hell wouldn’t have worn one himself. He’s not a homophobe, and I didn’t grow up to be a homophobe either… Something tells me this is the norm, not the exception. In fact, if I had seen daddy wearing a dress when I was a child THAT may have been more likely to turn me into a homophobe than not.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The gulf.[/quote]
Oh, no, push, it’s just a little ole crick. You can just lift up your skirts and hop right across to the other side, to where the drama kids are standing. [/quote]
From where I am standing it looks like the Grand Canyon.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I don’t see any reason why an eight year old child’s “sexuality” should be on the table, or even in the same room, ever, Wtf? He’s eight years old. His balls haven’t even dropped yet. He can worry about his “sexuality” when he’s a teenager. [/quote]
Also, Cortes doesn’t sound especially homophobic to me.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
The father wearing a skirt? I think now the kid is going to be bullied for being a fag and for his father also being a fag. His dad almost certainly made it worse for him. You’d never know it from all the squishy happy touchy feely support I saw in the comments to that article when I first read it a couple of weeks earlier, but I live in real people world, where actions actually have consequences.[/quote]
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.
It can be argued that parents with similar thinking as yours, either deliberately or not, instigate negative behaviour in their own children rather than teach them acceptance and tolerance for other children’s weird behaviour. Children with similar train of thoughts as yours will obviously bully other kids their parents deemed ‘‘abnormal’’ and for not conforming to society standards. The same can be said with race.
If children were not taught to make fun of the ‘‘strange’’ ones, and not to despise them, there would certainly not be any bullying, and our society would perhaps be a better place.
Baby boy A dressed in blue doesn’t give a shit about Baby Boy B dressed in pink. However, mother A may judge Mother B, and then teaches her son to be a judgemental son of a bitch and create intolerance in his mind as he grows up. It is a vicious circle. Standards have been set of course, but those standards can be broken. Women weren’t allowed to wear trousers centuries ago. Society’s criteria have changed throughout times, they are still changing, and will continuously evolve. My guess is that, in 50, 100 years from now, no one will give a shit whether a boy wears a dress every day at school once the judgemental mentality, homophobia, I read here will almost be eradicated.
I know, yeah, I sound like John Lenon. Fuck, I can’t help it. I’m a dreamer. Shoot me.[/quote]
Really?
Like cereally?
Children need to be “taught” to play their little dominance games?
[quote]csulli wrote:
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.[/quote]
My dad would never have let me go to school in a dress, and he sure as hell wouldn’t have worn one himself. He’s not a homophobe, and I didn’t grow up to be a homophobe either… Something tells me this is the norm, not the exception. In fact, if I had seen daddy wearing a dress when I was a child THAT may have been more likely to turn me into a homophobe than not.[/quote]
My point is not about your dad allowing you to wear a dress or not. It ain’t about your dad being a homophobe or not and it ain’t about you turning into homophobe had your dad dressed you as a girl.
I have no problem with fathers not allowing their sons to wear dresses. By all mean, teach your sons that society doesn’t accept '‘abnormal behaviour’ and there are consequences if you were to breach the rules. However, do not teach them your intolerance toward the kids who are different. Your children mirror you.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
The father wearing a skirt? I think now the kid is going to be bullied for being a fag and for his father also being a fag. His dad almost certainly made it worse for him. You’d never know it from all the squishy happy touchy feely support I saw in the comments to that article when I first read it a couple of weeks earlier, but I live in real people world, where actions actually have consequences.[/quote]
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.
It can be argued that parents with similar thinking as yours, either deliberately or not, instigate negative behaviour in their own children rather than teach them acceptance and tolerance for other children’s weird behaviour. Children with similar train of thoughts as yours will obviously bully other kids their parents deemed ‘‘abnormal’’ and for not conforming to society standards. The same can be said with race.
If children were not taught to make fun of the ‘‘strange’’ ones, and not to despise them, there would certainly not be any bullying, and our society would perhaps be a better place.
Baby boy A dressed in blue doesn’t give a shit about Baby Boy B dressed in pink. However, mother A may judge Mother B, and then teaches her son to be a judgemental son of a bitch and create intolerance in his mind as he grows up. It is a vicious circle. Standards have been set of course, but those standards can be broken. Women weren’t allowed to wear trousers centuries ago. Society’s criteria have changed throughout times, they are still changing, and will continuously evolve. My guess is that, in 50, 100 years from now, no one will give a shit whether a boy wears a dress every day at school once the judgemental mentality, homophobia, I read here will almost be eradicated.
I know, yeah, I sound like John Lenon. Fuck, I can’t help it. I’m a dreamer. Shoot me.[/quote]
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing.
I didn’t say I thought he or his dad was a fag. I said that’s what he’d catch shit from other kids for. That’s called REALITY.
You are now the fourth person in this thread who has had to resort to arguing against points I never made or implied, castigating me for things I’ve never done, or disparaging me for traits I do not possess.
And yes, you do sound like John Lennon. He was high most of the time.
I just came a cross a study showing that if you stand like a man you will become more like a man, hormonally.
I wonder if dressing like a woman could possibly make you more womanly hormonally as well.
Food for thought
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
…it’s not innate in children to beat down (or ostracize) something or someone that is different than they. It’s a learned behavior, and a learned behavior that is contrary to a child’s nature.
[/quote]
I disagree. I posit that “Lord of the Flies” syndrome is innate. Generally speaking.
I suspect that you are of the persuasion that basically, deep-down-inside man is “good.”
I hold the opposite position. History’s on my side.
[/quote]
For every example you could provide of man’s inherent evil, I could provide you with a damburst of examples that would wash yours away. Want to play?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
And yes, you do sound like John Lennon. He was high most of the time.
[/quote]
Do you blame him?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
The father wearing a skirt? I think now the kid is going to be bullied for being a fag and for his father also being a fag. His dad almost certainly made it worse for him. You’d never know it from all the squishy happy touchy feely support I saw in the comments to that article when I first read it a couple of weeks earlier, but I live in real people world, where actions actually have consequences.[/quote]
Also what makes a man wearing a dress a ‘‘fag’’?
It’s a frigging piece of clothe. A garment. With this kind of thinking shall I also suspect the priests in their robes, the Christian and Buddhist monks in their gown, the Scottish boys in their skirt… no wait, kilt, and some Arabs men in their tunic to be a bunch of homosexuals?
Intriguing.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
The father wearing a skirt? I think now the kid is going to be bullied for being a fag and for his father also being a fag. His dad almost certainly made it worse for him. You’d never know it from all the squishy happy touchy feely support I saw in the comments to that article when I first read it a couple of weeks earlier, but I live in real people world, where actions actually have consequences.[/quote]
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.
It can be argued that parents with similar thinking as yours, either deliberately or not, instigate negative behaviour in their own children rather than teach them acceptance and tolerance for other children’s weird behaviour. Children with similar train of thoughts as yours will obviously bully other kids their parents deemed ‘‘abnormal’’ and for not conforming to society standards. The same can be said with race.
If children were not taught to make fun of the ‘‘strange’’ ones, and not to despise them, there would certainly not be any bullying, and our society would perhaps be a better place.
Baby boy A dressed in blue doesn’t give a shit about Baby Boy B dressed in pink. However, mother A may judge Mother B, and then teaches her son to be a judgemental son of a bitch and create intolerance in his mind as he grows up. It is a vicious circle. Standards have been set of course, but those standards can be broken. Women weren’t allowed to wear trousers centuries ago. Society’s criteria have changed throughout times, they are still changing, and will continuously evolve. My guess is that, in 50, 100 years from now, no one will give a shit whether a boy wears a dress every day at school once the judgemental mentality, homophobia, I read here will almost be eradicated.
I know, yeah, I sound like John Lenon. Fuck, I can’t help it. I’m a dreamer. Shoot me.[/quote]
Really?
Like cereally?
Children need to be “taught” to play their little dominance games?[/quote]
I would love, just once, for someone to demonstrate just a fiber of evidence that this sort of benevolent egalitarian utopian wonderland of tolerance has ever existed, anywhere, in any society, even for a short period of time.
But that doesn’t stop them from using it as a club to beat you over the head with if you dare suggest otherwise.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
And yes, you do sound like John Lennon. He was high most of the time.
[/quote]
Do you blame him?[/quote]
It’s a bit of a chicken and egg puzzle, isn’t it?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Every single defense the pro pink dress crowd made in this thread can be used to justify the Sombrero Six Year Old.[/quote]
No and you’re patently incorrect. It is illegal for a child to go to school exposing his genitals. He would be in violation of codified laws. There is no law that says a child must wear clothing appropriate to the gender role most people of that sex occupy.
It’s not a valid comparison at all and to argue otherwise is intellectually dishonest. You and I both know that allowing a child to wear a dress to school is NOT going to lead to the legalization of child nudity in the classroom. If you really think that that is a distinct possibility, then your level of paranoia about the subject makes it pointless for me to continue this discussion further. We simply come from two points of view so diametrically opposed that there is no point in trying to influence each other’s thinking about this since a complete paradigm shift in our thinking would be necessary for either of us to understand where the other comes from.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing.
I didn’t say I thought he or his dad was a fag. I said that’s what he’d catch shit from other kids for. That’s called REALITY.
You are now the fourth person in this thread who has had to resort to arguing against points I never made or implied, castigating me for things I’ve never done, or disparaging me for traits I do not possess.
And yes, you do sound like John Lennon. He was high most of the time.
[/quote]
Well I’m glad to know I’m not the only person who perceive you as homophobe. I thought I was losing my mind at some point. I just hope you don’t use the word ‘‘fag’’ around your kids.
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Also what makes a man wearing a dress a ‘‘fag’’?
It’s a frigging piece of clothe. A garment. With this kind of thinking shall I also suspect the priests in their robes, the Christian and Buddhist monks in their gown, the Scottish boys in their skirt… no wait, kilt, and some Arabs men in their tunic to be a bunch of homosexuals?
Intriguing.[/quote]
Ah come on. There have been a couple people to say something like this. You guys are just sort of kidding around right?
I mean… If I dressed up like a priest, or a monk, or William Wallace would it look pretty much the same as if I dressed up in a Cinderella outfit?
To me they look pretty different…
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
The father wearing a skirt? I think now the kid is going to be bullied for being a fag and for his father also being a fag. His dad almost certainly made it worse for him. You’d never know it from all the squishy happy touchy feely support I saw in the comments to that article when I first read it a couple of weeks earlier, but I live in real people world, where actions actually have consequences.[/quote]
You sound exactly like the father I described in my scenario A. Do you fear homosexuality? Do you fear homosexuals may have a negative influence on your boy? Are you homophobe? Why are you judging that father in the link?
That kid will end up being bullied for being a ‘‘fag’’ only because the other kids’ fathers will allow them to make fun of him or instigate negative ideas in their heads. How on earth a young child know what a ‘‘fag’’ is after all? Oh yeap, he would have heard this from his homophobe dad, and will consequently use this derogatory name to abuse his classmate.
It can be argued that parents with similar thinking as yours, either deliberately or not, instigate negative behaviour in their own children rather than teach them acceptance and tolerance for other children’s weird behaviour. Children with similar train of thoughts as yours will obviously bully other kids their parents deemed ‘‘abnormal’’ and for not conforming to society standards. The same can be said with race.
If children were not taught to make fun of the ‘‘strange’’ ones, and not to despise them, there would certainly not be any bullying, and our society would perhaps be a better place.
Baby boy A dressed in blue doesn’t give a shit about Baby Boy B dressed in pink. However, mother A may judge Mother B, and then teaches her son to be a judgemental son of a bitch and create intolerance in his mind as he grows up. It is a vicious circle. Standards have been set of course, but those standards can be broken. Women weren’t allowed to wear trousers centuries ago. Society’s criteria have changed throughout times, they are still changing, and will continuously evolve. My guess is that, in 50, 100 years from now, no one will give a shit whether a boy wears a dress every day at school once the judgemental mentality, homophobia, I read here will almost be eradicated.
I know, yeah, I sound like John Lenon. Fuck, I can’t help it. I’m a dreamer. Shoot me.[/quote]
You could have saved yourself a lot of typing.
I didn’t say I thought he or his dad was a fag. I said that’s what he’d catch shit from other kids for. That’s called REALITY.
You are now the fourth person in this thread who has had to resort to arguing against points I never made or implied, castigating me for things I’ve never done, or disparaging me for traits I do not possess.
And yes, you do sound like John Lennon. He was high most of the time.
[/quote]
It is clear to me that you greatly fear that your child will be ostracized by his classmates and that protecting him from this is of the utmost importance.
There is no gulf between cross-dressing and being in a drama club or the choir or anything other activity that gets a kid made fun of. They are all forms of expression that are perfectly allowable within the law and the regulations put in place by the school. YOU have put the gulf there and people like you are the reason children continue to make fun of others that are different from them. You can flip out all you want about my evaluation of you, but the fact is that you have made it crystal clear that you value conformity and “fitting in” as a virtue. So when other parents perpetuate this attitude, it naturally leads to children persecuting those who don’t fit in or don’t conform.
Transgendered children are a reality. They exist, they are out there and they aren’t going away. There is nothing wrong with being transgendered and I think that the consequences of stunting this can be horrific. Stunting it implies that you think it is wrong to be transgendered. Not allowing a child to explore this also implies this. And despite what you may assume many children DO know that they are transgendered at an early age. They don’ know that specifically, but they know at an early age that something about them is different and they don’t know why.
LIke I said earlier, it isn’t unreasonable to ask your child about this is if he is wearing a dress. What prevents a parent from asking a child whether they feel comfortable wearing a dress, what bathroom they feel most comfortable in, who their friends are (mostly girls?) why they want to wear the dress and so on. Hell, get a psychiatrist involved if necessary.
But the bottom line is that if a child is transgendered than that is a part of who he/she is. It is no different than the fact that you and are I male gendered and that is a part of who we are. In an alternate universe I can’t simply be expected to wear women’s clothing simply because society expects me to.
Put yourself in that position. Let’s say that the entirety of society believes in a reversed gender role and social constructs have solidified this. In this society, transgendered would mean that a male wears pants and a shirt and all that. Would you rather wear women’s clothing your entire life and be forced into a role you weren’t born to occupy (meaning that you’d have to behave effeminately) or would you rather be who you really are and just deal with the ridicule, along with helping people understand that there is nothing wrong with you and that the derision is unfair?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
I would love, just once, for someone to demonstrate just a fiber of evidence that this sort of benevolent egalitarian utopian wonderland of tolerance has ever existed, anywhere, in any society, even for a short period of time.
But that doesn’t stop them from using it as a club to beat you over the head with if you dare suggest otherwise.
[/quote]
Of course that wonderland has never existed. And it is less likely to happen, I admit it.
If more parents teach their kids intolerance, racism, homophobia, hell yeah, there will be more shitty minded judgemental pricks in this world. There are society rules, criteria and we must adhere to them and, when someone with different idiosyncrasy turns up, we usually ostracize them. That’s how society works unfortunately and that doesn’t mean it shall necessarily be this way forever. Equality and acceptance in different parts of society happen when people start to be more open minded.
Hopefully, in the future, we may have a more tolerant culture of lil’ boys wearing dresses. Hence me saying in my post, I was a fucking dreamer.