Dog Training

Off Topic
21

I work specifically with aggressive dogs (dogs who are aggressive towards people or other animals), and I use food as the main tool to train them. There is a difference between bribery and reinforcement.

I’m not a fan of Cesar Milan, a lot of what he does is pointless or just irresponsible (even if it works). Enjoy his show for entertainment, but there are better role models out there. He makes some good points, but those flashing warnings “Do NOT try this at home” are not unjustified.

Ivan Balabanov is great, particularly if you want to compete. I’ve found Eric Letendre (Amazingdogtrainingman.com) to be excellent, very sensible and genuine experience.

Do not send your dog away to be trained. You don’t know what they will do to your dog, and you will not learn how to maintain the behaviours they teach. An untrained dog is a burden on your lifestyle. Actually, at your age any dog is probably going to be a burden. Enjoy the lack of responsibility while you can!

I don’t have a problem with well planned and thought out corrections, but I rarely use them. After a long time I came to the conclusion that if I needed to use a correction it was to fix a mistake I had made, training the way that I do. This probably won’t make sense to everyone, but that’s how I see it.

22

[quote]malonetd wrote:
See, this is where the OP confuses me. Is he looking for a dog just to have a dog? Because that’s what I gather from his first post. When someone says something like, “Im looking at getting a dog sometime in the near future” they just want the companionship of a dog. And for that you don’t need specialized training. A basic home dog only needs to know how to respond to a handful of commands that any competent owner can teach.

But then he brings up Schutzhund and professional training and now I don’t know what he’s thinking. Anything beyond basic obedience is a pretty serious commitment. And anyone who’s just mulling this over in his head, probably isn’t ready for it.[/quote]

We are in agreement.

Demo Dick

23

[quote]DragnCarry wrote:
I work specifically with aggressive dogs (dogs who are aggressive towards people or other animals), and I use food as the main tool to train them. There is a difference between bribery and reinforcement.

I’m not a fan of Cesar Milan, a lot of what he does is pointless or just irresponsible (even if it works). Enjoy his show for entertainment, but there are better role models out there. He makes some good points, but those flashing warnings “Do NOT try this at home” are not unjustified.

Ivan Balabanov is great, particularly if you want to compete. I’ve found Eric Letendre (Amazingdogtrainingman.com) to be excellent, very sensible and genuine experience.

Do not send your dog away to be trained. You don’t know what they will do to your dog, and you will not learn how to maintain the behaviours they teach. An untrained dog is a burden on your lifestyle. Actually, at your age any dog is probably going to be a burden. Enjoy the lack of responsibility while you can!

I don’t have a problem with well planned and thought out corrections, but I rarely use them. After a long time I came to the conclusion that if I needed to use a correction it was to fix a mistake I had made, training the way that I do. This probably won’t make sense to everyone, but that’s how I see it.
[/quote]

I don’t what dogs you work with, but if you’re saying that positive only training is the way to go I couldn’t disagree more.

24

He clearly stated he uses corrections. In reality, there’s no such thing as “positive only” any way.

Demo Dick

25

[quote]Demo Dick wrote:
<<< Excellent post.

Also, finding a good Dobie these days is damn near impossible. With the hyper-specialization required of Ring, Sch., and Mondio, it’s even becoming a challenge to find a balanced Malinois. I’ve seen a predominance of prey monsters with no defense or fight drive to speak of.

I’ll stick with my little game dogs. Suits me just fine.

Demo Dick[/quote]

I’ve been out of that game for a while, but my experience with Dobermans goes along with yours. Lanky, dopey and no drive.

The idea of fight drive as distinct from defense was just being proposed when I was moving away from the dog game. By the German trainers of course. Prey drive can get you pretty far in the sports though. On the other hand a K-9 or personal protection dog better have some serious defense/fight in em or you may wind with your dog either staring at an attacker or worse, running away.

26

I got a rotty cross kelpie (australian kelpie) and she got first in puppy pre school (puppy training). Mainly cause kelpies are very smart and rotty not to bad either. I dont know much about mastifs but training is easy with smart dogs… makes sense i guess.

With ours we reward her with food treats constantly and never reward bad behaviour. Shes easily excited and very active (kelpie traits) but when she is focussed she learns quickly. She is also easier to train when she was been excersized a little first and not in the middle of the day when she becomes lethargic.
Hope this helps.

On wiki i found a list of the smartest dogs this might help

27

i have always had large-giant breeds. i currently have a 130lb great dane, a 140lb lab-bullmastif mix, and a 135lb scott-type american bulldog. the bully and the dane both had exited/dominance and the bully had pretty strong prey drive. this may sound corny, especially to all the internet tough-guy know it alls that are everywhere on this board, but here i go anyway.

i have learned a LOT from watching the dog-whisperer program. caesar milan knows what he is talking about. since i started using his techniques, not only do i have the calmest most well behaved dogs most people i know have ever seen, i have helped my friends and neighbors with their “problem” dogs and been pretty darn successful.

watch that little mexican’s show, its worth it, AND ITS FREE.

28

now my comments above are NOT intended for the guys here who are talking about all this serious attack/defense competition training, most of the world has dogs for companionship, not so they can have bragging rights to who has the most bad-ass dog. hell, i never even heard of shuzernalahunderwunwhatzit before this thread.

29

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
now my comments above are NOT intended for the guys here who are talking about all this serious attack/defense competition training, most of the world has dogs for companionship, not so they can have bragging rights to who has the most bad-ass dog. hell, i never even heard of shuzernalahunderwunwhatzit before this thread.
[/quote]

But you have heard of German Shepherds, correct? The breed was BUILT to do Schutzhund. It used to be THE breed suitability test for GSD’s.

Compare a European working line GSD to an AKC show line GSD. Actually, come to think of it, you can’t. The American show dogs don’t measure up in any way.

Cesar teaches some good things, like clearly communicating boundaries. I just don’t like the way he does it. Damn dangerous stuff to try on most dogs, especially if the owner has a low skill level with regards to handling and training. Most of the people who follow Cesar do.

Demo Dick

30

dick,

\i hear what your saying, most people do not have a trained high drive purebred like yours to be a killer.

Caesar serves the average joe who has a family dog who does not understand basic canine needs/psychology.

when i got my dane, he was already a 18months old, and got hyper exited when he saw another dog. he literally jumped through a glass window to get at another dog once. when he would hear another dog walking outside, he would maul the door handles untill they looked like a wadded up piece of paper.

by giving proper exercise( i run him 4-7 miles a day, not walk, not trot, RUN with me on a bike and him in full gamble(not bad for a breed who’s working ability has all but been destroyed) twice a day. i make him submit to get food, and correct/redirect with good timing when i see him get too exited over anything.

now he is “the best, most well behaved dog” my friends have ever been around. i can just look at him a certain way, and he stops whatever he is doing and lays down on his bed.

american bulldogs are (like danes i admit, not the most sound breed) but they have very high drive and “gameness” especially the scott type, which are still used in the southeast today to bait large game like wild pigs. my bully had very high prey drive, and anything small and furry: dog, cat squirrel, it was dinner time.

now he is the most docile freindly dog you will ever meet, my friend who dog sits for me has cats, no problem, and he is buddies with the little rat dogs around my neighborhood.

this was accomplished by a know nothing about “real” dog training lay person myself who used and applied Caesar’s techniques.

31

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
dick,

\i hear what your saying, most people do not have a trained high drive purebred like yours to be a killer.[/quote]

My dog is a rescue that came out of a dumpster. He’s not the first dog or only dog I’ve worked with. I have a broader base of experience than that.

If someone does not understand basic canine psychology then Cesar is the LAST person I would refer them to.

[quote]when i got my dane, he was already a 18months old, and got hyper exited when he saw another dog. he literally jumped through a glass window to get at another dog once. when he would hear another dog walking outside, he would maul the door handles untill they looked like a wadded up piece of paper.

by giving proper exercise( i run him 4-7 miles a day, not walk, not trot, RUN with me on a bike and him in full gamble(not bad for a breed who’s working ability has all but been destroyed) twice a day. i make him submit to get food, and correct/redirect with good timing when i see him get too exited over anything. now he is “the best, most well behaved dog” my friends have ever been around. i can just look at him a certain way, and he stops whatever he is doing and lays down on his bed.[/quote]

I’m glad you got them under control, but that does not mean that Cesar should get credit for doing anything miraculous. Any basic obedience trainer would get you the same results, if not better. And I’d bet they don’t have a TV show or celebrity endorsements, just a long list of clients.

[quote]american bulldogs are (like danes i admit, not the most sound breed) but they have very high drive and “gameness” especially the scott type, which are still used in the southeast today to bait large game like wild pigs. my bully had very high prey drive, and anything small and furry: dog, cat squirrel, it was dinner time. now he is the most docile freindly dog you will ever meet, my friend who dog sits for me has cats, no problem, and he is buddies with the little rat dogs around my neighborhood.

this was accomplished by a know nothing about “real” dog training lay person myself who used and applied Caesar’s techniques.[/quote]

I’m happy that you’ve had success. Here’s some perspective. I run in pretty broad dog training circles, not just bitework. We do obedience, weight pull, agility, dock diving, fastest dog, flyball, etc. So understand I’m not coming from a strictly “hard-core killer mentality.” I’ve worked with a wide variety of breeds, temperaments, and drive levels.

I’ve also worked with some of the best dog trainers in the country, and learned a lot from them. Cesar Milan is almost universally discredited in this community, because he uses out of date and often dangerous methods, again, regardless of the dog’s pedigree or temperament. The alpha roll, for example, is the best recipe for a face bite in the world.

Allowing multiple pit bulls to run in a pack because you’re their “leader” and they will defer to you? Also a VERY bad idea. What they don’t show you on that show would have you rethinking a lot of what he teaches. Editing works wonders.

Cesar got successful in large part by marketing himself as a “celebrity dog trainer.” Once he got Oprah’s blessing, his path was set. That doesn’t mean that everything he says is wrong, but it also doesn’t mean that he’s always right. While I do think the biggest behavioral problems most people face are in fact owner-created and reinforced, and clearly defining boundaries and expectations can fix that, I don’t think Cesar’s approach is generally a good idea for most people to use at home on their dogs.

I’ve seen quite a few screwed up dogs, and owners, because “Cesar’s way” didn’t work. That’s why I advise people to go get hands on instruction from a balanced trainer.

Demo Dick

32

demo d.

i am not going to get in a pissing match with you. for all i know, you may be legit and "the man when it comes to dogs. it really doesnt matter, everybody is a know it all on the internet.

i ll just say this and let you have the last word and we will agree to disagree on decent terms, ok?

caesar has had a positive effect on millions of families and dogs who otherwise might be in shelters waiting to be put down. seeing how you are in the business of dog obedience, i can totally see why you would be peeing on your territory, along with the 'community" you roll with as i am sure it pisses you guys off that a little mexican with no official training to be a dog trainer who got a lucky break with a celebrity, is taking lots of money out of your pockets.

i am sure that all the hundreds of dogs at his center that previously had aggression issues get into blood bath type wars every day, and caesar has to ship in 20-30 new dogs that are not dead or mauled for each taping of his show.

im out.

33

[quote]Demo Dick wrote:
<<< Compare a European working line GSD to an AKC show line GSD. Actually, come to think of it, you can’t. The American show dogs don’t measure up in any way. >>>[/quote]

Don’t even get me started on that abominable AKC.

34

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
demo d.

i am not going to get in a pissing match with you. for all i know, you may be legit and "the man when it comes to dogs. it really doesnt matter, everybody is a know it all on the internet.[/quote]

Not “the man”, just a guy who has learned a few things from some excellent trainers. I also learned a shitload about what NOT to do.

Ok. I’ll hold you to that last word thing. :wink:

Nice try, but nope. I don’t make a dime from training. I refuse to take money for it, though I could easily do so. Also, Cesar doesn’t take money out of the training circles I travel in. He actually adds to those bank accounts. Why? Again, a lot of dogs get screwed up because their owners thought Cesar was the man, tried to apply his methods, and ended up with a bigger problem than they started with. Then they take the dog to someone and get firsthand instruction on how to fix things. So actually, from a pure profit motive, Cesar has been very, very good for competent trainers. He sends a lot of business their way. If he were just making an honest buck and that was it, I’d be happy for him. I’m a capitalist through and through. But I see real damage being done, and that’s why I advise people to steer clear of alot of what he teaches. Especially beginners and people dealing inappropriate aggression issues.

I absolutely guarantee you that there have been some serious, nasty dog fights because of Cesar’s cowboy approach to pack orientation. And I also guarantee that you’ll never see the footage. I wouldn’t let him touch my personal dog with a ten foot pole. No amount of leadership or alpha status is going to change the fact that he’s a fighter at heart. I know a LOT of people in the Pit Bull community who have horror stories about trying to apply Cesar’s “leadership” stuff to our dogs. Bad idea. It’s like trying to get a Jack Russel and a rat to get along and play nicely because you’re the alpha. Ain’t gonna happen, and you’ll find out the hard way, sooner or later.

Actually, I would like to see him try to alpha roll my boy. He hasn’t had a live bite in a while.

Demo Dick

35

[quote]Demo Dick wrote:
He clearly stated he uses corrections. In reality, there’s no such thing as “positive only” any way.

Demo Dick[/quote]

That’s right, but I think Tribulus would be surprised at how few corrections I use for the result I get. You can train a dog a lot of different ways. In theory you could go “positive only” (and I know plenty of people who have trained many dogs with NO compromises at all, at least from their end), but you would have to control the environment too carefully for my liking.

If we’re talking about dogs who fight other dogs, or who have bitten people, I go to those lengths. No corrections at all. By carefully controlling the environment and paying close attention to detail I can change those behaviours very quickly but that is what I specialise in.

If we’re talking about someone who lives in the bush and wants to walk their dog off-leash every day, but it chases wallabies, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to use an e-collar in many cases. It would be too elaborate to set up a controlled environment with the same stimuli so that you could do this with positive reinforcement only.

36

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Demo Dick wrote:
<<< Compare a European working line GSD to an AKC show line GSD. Actually, come to think of it, you can’t. The American show dogs don’t measure up in any way. >>>

Don’t even get me started on that abominable AKC.
[/quote]

Believe me, I know. It has been the ruination of all that it touches.

Demo Dick

37

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
caesar has had a positive effect on millions of families and dogs who otherwise might be in shelters waiting to be put down. seeing how you are in the business of dog obedience, i can totally see why you would be peeing on your territory, along with the 'community" you roll with as i am sure it pisses you guys off that a little mexican with no official training to be a dog trainer who got a lucky break with a celebrity, is taking lots of money out of your pockets.
[/quote]

It’s really not that. He has no affect on me at all in Australia, his show is not over here and I have never relied on the income I make from training dogs. I have no formal education in dog training either.

His methods (not ALL of them, some of them) are frequently dangerous. A lot of what he calls the “calm, submissive state” is what the rest of us recognise as fear and even what is known as “learned helplessness” - the dog shuts down because it doesn’t feel that it is safe to do anything.

I’ve been there and done that to dogs and will never go back. I thought I knew what I was doing then, too.

Of course he doesn’t get it all wrong. His emphasis on exercise and leadership are great, and his teachings on discipline and affection will stop a lot of people from making some stupid mistakes (even if he does have a very dogmatic view of this).

38

[quote]Demo Dick wrote:
Why? Again, a lot of dogs get screwed up because their owners thought Cesar was the man, tried to apply his methods, and ended up with a bigger problem than they started with.
[/quote]

We used to see this same thing in Australia with a different celebrity dog trainer. Thankfully that guy at least now has a consultant who has improved the quality of advice immeasurably. I suppose when enough people complain (or sue, which has happened already to CM) it can change things for the better.

39

i lied, no last word for you…

check out “baretta’s” avatar, if you have not already seen it.

i watched it for like 3 hours.

NOW I’m out.

HT

40

[quote]Demo Dick wrote:
Split wrote:
ok forget shutzhund how about proffessional training, yay or nay? if so what dvd’s/programs do you recommend?

Yes, if and when you get a dog you are going to want to find a good, reputable trainer. The problem is, competent trainers are few and far between. Look for a trainer that has earned working titles, preferably on a number of different breeds. Good trainers generally use positive reinforcement to teach, corrections to proof, and will approach each dog individually rather than use a cookie-cutter approach. One-on-one instruction is a must for both you and your dog, as a first time handler/trainer is going to get overwhelmed in a class type setting with a green dog.

A good start as far as reference material? If I were you I would look into Ivan Balabanov’s DVD’s. They’re published by Canine Training Systems and cost around $70 each. And they are just a beginning point from which you should plan to start.

I have a little over five years in working APBT’s, training, handling and competing across a variety of sports and Personal Protection (which I don’t consider a sport). I absolutely love working dogs, but advise anyone looking to get into this stuff to do ten times the homework they think they need to. I got much of what I know through “cowboy learning”, i.e. learning the hard way, and do my best to help others avoid doing it that way.

Demo Dick
[/quote]

Well said DD. I also train dogs and it always, always, always comes down to the owner. Most, if not all got themselves this cute little puppy not thinking about what it was going to be a year or two from now. I’ve become known as the only trainer in the area that can handle any aggressive dog, and it’s incredible how many times I’ve had the owner tell me they’ve been through obedience training with “fluffy” and it “just doesn’t seem to work”!

The biggest challenge I see is that people treat their dog like it’s there child. Now this is partly correct. Owning a dog, especially a puppy is very much like having a child. Especially when we’re talking about the level of responsibility necessary to have a well balanced and stable dog. But it’s not there baby in that they treat it like a human. It’s a dog. It communicates like a dog. Not like a human. Oh vey, let me get off my soap box.

I second everything you’ve advised up to this point. Take plenty of time to choose the right dog for you. Forget style points. Get a dog because it’s the right companion for you. Not because your friends might think it’s cool. They won’t think it’s so cool with a few hundred stitches in their face. Trust me.

Be ready to take the time to train your dog properly. And yes, I do believe you should get a professional. Shop around. Any trainer worth their weight will be able to provide you with copious referals.

Also, ask to watch them train another dog, or as I do, I’ll evaluate the dog and demonstrate the first 30 minutes with no commitment necessary. This allows them to find out if I’m the right trainer for them. I’m never worried because in the first 10 minutes I get comments like “that’s not my dog”, “my dog would never do that for me”.

But this also allows me to find out if the people are serious. Because if they’re not then all that leads to is someone that thinks I’m supposed to “fix” their dog and they can do anything else. If they aren’t serious, I don’t take them on as clients.