Does Prayer Work? Is There a God?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]pookie wrote:
clip11 wrote:
I just got in trouble with the law the beginning of this year. I was facing 2-5 years in prison. And a felony on my record. Long story short, I hired a very good attorney and he got my felony dropped to a misdemeanor and I am on probation with no prison time. My parents and grandparents keep harping on how its a miracle from God. The attorney gets no credit at all, apparently he’s just an “agent” that God worked thru.

When even the most mundane occurrence becomes a miracle, doesn’t that “cheapen” the very concept? If your toaster pops up your toasts and they’re done just right, do you praise God for that miracle too?

A miracle wouldve been if God had just dropped all the knowledge I needed to be my own lawyer into my brain and I knew exactly what to do w/o ever have gone to law school in my life.

An added benefit would’ve been that you could then have gone and passed the bar exam and solved your job problem too. Now that’d be a good miracle.
[/quote]

Yes that would’ve been a miracle!!!

222

[quote]pookie wrote:
clip11 wrote:
I just got in trouble with the law the beginning of this year. I was facing 2-5 years in prison. And a felony on my record. Long story short, I hired a very good attorney and he got my felony dropped to a misdemeanor and I am on probation with no prison time. My parents and grandparents keep harping on how its a miracle from God. The attorney gets no credit at all, apparently he’s just an “agent” that God worked thru.

When even the most mundane occurrence becomes a miracle, doesn’t that “cheapen” the very concept? If your toaster pops up your toasts and they’re done just right, do you praise God for that miracle too?

A miracle wouldve been if God had just dropped all the knowledge I needed to be my own lawyer into my brain and I knew exactly what to do w/o ever have gone to law school in my life.

An added benefit would’ve been that you could then have gone and passed the bar exam and solved your job problem too. Now that’d be a good miracle.
[/quote]

The irony of this is…lets say i did get prison time, then according to them that would be “Gods plan” for me. By the same token, they still would say it was my choice to commit the crime. You can see how that doesnt add up?

If it was his plan, then that means I actually had no control over it and I was just doing what I was pre-programmed to do.

223

Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you

224

[quote]big balls wrote:
Seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you

[/quote]

How do I seek an invisible person who may or may not be there…and when I pray, still nothing.

But that doesnt change what was said in Matthew 7:7 and numerous other verses about prayer and results.

225

My grandparents were just over and apparently my brothers tatoos are a sin!

226

[quote]pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Noticeable and measurable are two different things

How? If you notice that someone was healed from prayer, isn’t that a measurement by definition?

Perhaps, but of course you’d have naysayers and such who’d claim he was never sick. But all you are referring to is healing and health restoration. That is one aspect of prayer, but I don’t treat God like the great doctor in the sky. Prayer is about relationships with God. You can’t measure relationships, can you?

Can you measure, inspiration? How about premonition? How about joy?

The difference is that people are claiming prayer works. They believe that if you pray over someone that is sick, doing so will give that person a better chance to recover than would be expected by chance alone. Else, why would you pray for them in the first place?

Prayer does work. But God isn’t some computer program or something where you insert data and get an expected result. If you pray 100 words and grovel enough God will heal you…That doesn’t really work. He could heal you, sure, but perhaps just accepting your situation is enough. Maybe, you need to be struggling and that’s why you are where you are, etc.

Prayer life isn’t, get sick, pray the “Our Father” and get better. Prayer is communication with God. That’s what it’s about, not dropping a list on God and then being all pissed off when he didn’t do what you wanted him to.[/quote]

But the sick person didnt pray to accept there situation hey prayed to be healed…thats just a cop out

227

[quote]clip11 wrote:
pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Noticeable and measurable are two different things

How? If you notice that someone was healed from prayer, isn’t that a measurement by definition?

Perhaps, but of course you’d have naysayers and such who’d claim he was never sick. But all you are referring to is healing and health restoration. That is one aspect of prayer, but I don’t treat God like the great doctor in the sky. Prayer is about relationships with God. You can’t measure relationships, can you?

Can you measure, inspiration? How about premonition? How about joy?

The difference is that people are claiming prayer works. They believe that if you pray over someone that is sick, doing so will give that person a better chance to recover than would be expected by chance alone. Else, why would you pray for them in the first place?

Prayer does work. But God isn’t some computer program or something where you insert data and get an expected result. If you pray 100 words and grovel enough God will heal you…That doesn’t really work. He could heal you, sure, but perhaps just accepting your situation is enough. Maybe, you need to be struggling and that’s why you are where you are, etc.

Prayer life isn’t, get sick, pray the “Our Father” and get better. Prayer is communication with God. That’s what it’s about, not dropping a list on God and then being all pissed off when he didn’t do what you wanted him to.

But the sick person didnt pray to accept there situation hey prayed to be healed…thats just a cop out[/quote]

“Fair is whatever god wants to do”. Lief Enger

228

Buff HardBack wrote: Yeah and you just have issues.

GrandpaButch wrote: Pray tell then DEAR SISSY what are they? Name them!

Miracle

Author: Matthew G. Easton.

A true miracle is an event in the external world brought about by the immediate agency or the simple volition of God, operating without the use of means capable of being discerned by the senses, and designed to authenticate the divine commission of a religious teacher and the truth of his message (John 2:18; Matt. 12:38).

It is an occurrence at once above nature and above man. It shows the intervention of a power that is not limited by the laws either of matter or of mind, a power interrupting the fixed laws which govern their movements, a supernatural power.

"The suspension or violation of the laws of nature involved in miracles is nothing more than is constantly taking place around us. One force counteracts another: vital force keeps the chemical laws of matter in abeyance; and muscular force can control the action of physical force. When a man raises a weight from the ground, the law of gravity is neither suspended nor violated, but counteracted by a stronger force. The same is true as to the walking of Christ on the water and the swimming of iron at the command of the prophet.

The simple and grand truth that the universe is not under the exclusive control of physical forces, but that everywhere and always there is above, separate from and superior to all else, an infinite personal will, not superceding, but directing and controlling all physical causes, acting with or without them."

God ordinarily effects his purpose through the agency of second causes; but he has the power also of effecting his purpose immediately and without the intervention of second causes, i.e., of invading the fixed order, and thus of working miracles. Thus we affirm the possibility of miracles, the possibility of a higher hand intervening to control or reverse nature’s ordinary movements.

In the New Testament these four Greek words are principally used to designate miracles:

Semeion, a �??�??�?�¢??sign�??�??�?�¢??, i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38,39; 16:1, 4; Mark 8:11; Luke 11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); a token of the presence and working of God; the seal of a higher power.

Terata, �??�??�?�¢??wonders;�??�??�?�¢?? wonder-causing events; portents; producing astonishment in the beholder (Acts 2:19).

Dunameis, �??�??�?�¢??might works;�??�??�?�¢?? works of superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9); of a new and higher power.

Erga, �??�??�?�¢??works;�??�??�?�¢?? the works of Him who is �??�??�?�¢??wonderful in working�??�??�?�¢?? (John 5:20, 36).

Miracles are seals of a divine mission. The sacred writers appealed to them as proofs that they were messengers of God. Our Lord also appealed to miracles as a conclusive proof of his divine mission (John 5:20, 36; 10:25, 38). Thus, being out of the common course of nature and beyond the power of man, they are fitted to convey the impression of the presence and power of God.

Where miracles are there certainly God is. The man, therefore, who works a miracle affords thereby clear proof that he comes with the authority of God; they are his credentials that he is God’s messenger. The teacher points to these credentials, and they are a proof that he speaks with the authority of God. He boldly says, “God bears me witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles.”

The credibility of miracles is established by the evidence of the senses on the part of those who are witnesses of them, and to all others by the testimony of such witnesses. The witnesses were competent, and their testimony is trustworthy. Unbelievers, following Hume, deny that any testimony can prove a miracle, because they say miracles are impossible. We have shown that miracles are possible, and surely they can be borne witness to. Surely they are credible when we have abundant and trustworthy evidence of their occurrence. They are credible just as any facts of history well authenticated are credible.

Miracles, it is said, are contrary to experience. Of course they are contrary to our experience, but that does not prove that they were contrary to the experience of those who witnessed them. We believe a thousand facts, both of history and of science, that are contrary to our experience, but we believe them on the ground of competent testimony.

An atheist or a pantheist must, as a matter of course, deny the possibility of miracles; but to one who believes in a personal God, who in his wisdom may see fit to interfere with the ordinary processes of nature, miracles are not impossible, nor are they incredible.

Author: Matthew G. Easton.
List of miracles recorded in the Bible (partial list)
Creation of the universe, including plants, animals and humans (Genesis 1-2)
The flood (Gen. 7, 8)

SO CHECK OUT A PARTIAL LIST OF MIRACLES OF THE BIBLE,AND BEAR IN MIND THE JEWS LIVED THRU ,AND WITNESSED MOST IF NOT ALL OF THESE ,AND WE STILL HAVE THE JEWS DON’T WE! WAKE UP!

Confusion of languages (tongues) at Babel (Gen. 11:1-9)
Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:24)
Lot’s wife turned into a Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??pillar of saltÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?? (Gen. 19:26)
Birth of Isaac at Gerar (Gen. 21:1)
The burning bush not consumed (Ex. 3:3)
Aaron’s rod changed into a serpent (Ex. 7:10-12)
The ten plagues of Egypt (Ex. 7:20-12:30)
waters become blood
frogs
lice
flies
murrain
boils
thunder and hail
locusts
darkness
death of the first-born
Red Sea divided; Israel passes through (See: Passage of Red Sea) (Ex. 14:21-31)
Waters of Marah sweetened (Ex. 15:23-25)
Manna sent daily, except on Sabbath (Ex. 16:14-35)
Water from the rock at Rephidim (Ex. 17:5-7)
Nadab and Abihu consumed for offering �??�??�?�¢??strange fire�??�??�?�¢?? (Lev. 10:1, 2)
Some of the people consumed by fire at Taberah (Num. 11:1-3)
The earth opens and swallows up Korah and his company. (Num. 16:32-34)
Fire at Kadesh (Num. 16:35-45)
Plague at Kadesh (Num. 16:46-50)
Aaron’s rod budding at Kadesh (Num. 17:8)
Water from the rock, smitten twice by Moses, Desert of Zin (Num. 20:7-11)
The brazen serpent in the Desert of Zin (Num. 21:8, 9)
Balaam’s ass speaks (Num. 22:21-35)
The Jordan divided, so that Israel passed over dryshod near the city of Adam (Josh. 3:14-17)
The walls of Jericho fall down (Josh. 6:6-20)
The sun and moon stayed. (Josh. 10:12-14)
Hailstorm. (Josh. 10:12-14)
The strength of Samson (Judg. 14-16)
Water from a hollow place “that is in Lehi” (Judg. 15:19)
Dagon falls twice before the ark. (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Emerods on the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:1-12)
Men of Beth-shemesh smitten for looking into the ark (1 Sam. 6:19)
Thunderstorm causes a panic among the Philistines at Eben-ezer (1 Sam. 7:10-12)
Thunder and rain in harvest at Gilgal (1 Sam. 12:18)
Sound in the mulberry trees at Rephaim (2 Sam. 5:23-25)
Uzzah smitten for touching the ark at Perez-uzzah (2 Sam. 6:6, 7)
Jeroboam’s hand withered. (1 Kings 13:4)
Jeroboam’s new altar destroyed at Bethel (1 Kings 13:4-6
31. Widow of Zarephath’s meal and oil increased (1 Kings 17:14-16)
Widow’s son raised from the dead (1 Kings 17:17-24)
Drought at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 17, 18)
Fire at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 18:19-39)
Rain at Elijah’s prayers (1 Kings 18:41-45)
Elijah fed by ravens (1 Kings 17, 18)
Ahaziah’s captains consumed by fire near Samaria (2 Kings 1:10-12)
Jordan divided by Elijah and Elisha near Jericho (2 Kings 2:7, 8, 14)
Elijah carried up into heaven (2 Kings 2:11)
Waters of Jericho healed by Elisha’s casting salt into them (2 Kings 2:21, 22)
Bears out of the wood destroy forty-two �??�??�?�¢??young men�??�??�?�¢?? (2 Kings 2:24)
Water provided for Jehoshaphat and the allied army (2 Kings 3:16-20)
The widow’s oil multiplied (2 Kings 4:2-7)
The Shunammite’s son given, and raised from the dead at Shunem (2 Kings 4:32-37)
The deadly pottage cured with meal at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:38-41)
A hundred men fed with twenty loaves at Gilgal (2 Kings 4:42-44)
Naaman cured of leprosy, Gehazi afflicted with it (2 Kings 5:10-27)
The iron axe-head made to swim, river Jordan (2 Kings 6:5-7)
Ben hadad’s plans discovered. Hazael’s thoughts, etc. (2 Kings 6:12)
The Syrian army smitten with blindness at Dothan (2 Kings 6:18)
The Syrian army cured of blindness at Samaria (2 Kings 6:20)
Elisha’s bones revive the dead (2 Kings 13:21)
Sennacherib’s army destroyed, Jerusalem (2 Kings 19:35)
Shadow of sun goes back ten degrees on the sun-dial of Ahaz, Jerusalem (2 Kings 20:9-11)
Uzziah struck with leprosy, Jerusalem (2 Chr. 26:16-21)
Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego delivered from the fiery furnace, Babylon (Dan. 3:10-27)
Daniel saved in the lions’ den (Dan. 6:16-23)
Jonah in the fish’s belly. Safely landed (Jonah 2:1-10)
Gideon’s fleece (Judg. 6:37-40)
Miracles Recorded in the Gospels
Cure of two blind men (Matt 9:27-31)
Piece of money in the fish’s mouth (Matt 17:24-27)
The deaf and dumb man (Mark 7:31-37)
The blind man of Bethsaida (Mark 8:22-26)
Jesus passes unseen through the crowd (Luke 4:28-30)

The miraculous draught of fishes (Luke 5:4-11)
The raising of the widow’s son at Nain (Luke 7:11-18)
The woman with the spirit of infirmity (Luke 13:11-17)
The man with the dropsy (Luke 14:1-6)
The ten lepers (Luke 17:11-19)
The healing of Malchus (Luke 22:50-51)

Water made wine (John 2:1-11)
Cure of nobleman’s son, Capernaum (John 4:46-54)
Impotent man at Bethsaida cured (John 5:1-9)
Man born blind cured (John 9:1-7)

Lazarus raised from the dead (John 11:38-44)
Draught of fishes (John 21:1-14)
Syrophoenician woman’s daughter cured (Matt 15:28; Mark 7:24)

Four thousand fed (Matt 15:32; Mark 8:1)
Fig tree blasted (Matt 21:18; Mark 11:12)
Centurion’s servant healed (Matt 8:5; Luke 7:1)
Blind and dumb demoniac cured (Matt 12:22; Luke 11:14)
Demoniac cured in synagogue at Capernaum (Mark 1:23; Luke 4:33)
Peter’s wife’s mother cured (Matt 8:14; Mark 1:30; Luke 4:38)
The tempest stilled (Matt 8:23; Mark 4:37; Luke 8:22)
Demoniacs of Gadara cured (Matt 8:28; Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26)
Swine rush into and drown (Mark 5:1-20)
Leper healed (Matt 8:2; Mark 1:40; Luke 5:12)
Jairus’s daughter raised (Matt 9:23; Mark 5:23; Luke 8:41)
Woman’s issue of blood cured (Matt 9:20; Mark 5:25; Luke 8:43)
Man sick of the palsy cured (Matt 9:2; Mark 2:3; Luke 5:18)
Man’s withered hand cured (Matt 12:10; Mark 3:1; Luke 6:6)
A lunatic child cured (Matt 17:14; Mark 9:14; Luke 9:37)
Two blind men cured (Matt 20:29; Mark 10:46; Luke 18:35)
Jesus walks on the sea (Matt 14:25; Mark 6:48; John 6:15)
Jesus feeds 5,000 “in a desert place” (Matt 14:15; Mark 6:30; Luke 9:10; John 6:1-14)
Many fulfilled prophecies (also see: prophets)
The conception of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost (Luke 1:35)
Star of Bethlehem
The transfiguration (Matt 17:1-8)
The resurrection (John 21:1-14)
The ascension (Luke 2:42-51)
Peter and the healing of a the paralytic Aeneas at Lydda (Acts 9:32, 35, 38)
Miraculous ability to speak and/or understand a foreign language (tongue) previously unknown to the speaker (See: Gift of tongues)
Inspiration of Scripture by God
ALSO SEE:

Is it LOGICAL to believe that the biblical miracles really happened? Answer
If Christ’s miracles really happened, why weren’t they reported by historians? Answer
�??�??�?�¢??Miracles are not possible,�??�??�?�¢?? some claim. Is this true? Answer
CHRIST’S MIRACLES - Has science disproved the miracles associated with Jesus Christ? Answer
Isn’t the virgin birth of Jesus Christ mythological and scientifically impossible? Answer
Does the New Testament provide a reliable history of Christ’s life? Answer
Can we explain the �??�??�?�¢??long days�??�??�?�¢?? of Joshua and Hezekiah? Answer
INTERNAL HARMONY - A skeptic questions whether the Bible’s internal harmony is evidence of its Divine inspiration - He suggests that the existence of the James Bond film series disproves that argument. See our responseÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦
How can I know the Bible is TRUE? Answer
GOD’S PROTECTION - What about the Psalm 91 promises? Answer
“Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tentÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢?Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¦”

229

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pookie wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Relax, buddy. Pook and I are real good buddies who hate each other’s guts. Leave us alone. We’re just having fun.

Damn, and I thought we were mortal enemies who enjoyed each other’s banter.

That too.

Thanks for clearing that up, ugly doofus.

Anytime, you goofy dodo, you.
[/quote]

LOL. Sorry fellas. I wasn’t aware of that. Thanks for some good discussion.

230

[quote]GrandpaButch wrote:

Several pages of circular logic.

[/quote]

Cliff’s Notes version

231

Of course there’s a God!! Didn’t Achmadinjhad win in Iran? Terrorists FTW!

232

[quote]mbm693 wrote:
pat wrote:
It’s like trying to measure how much your love affects your wife or girl friend. If you take an event and try to ascertain how much your love would alter the outcome of that event that involves wife/gf could you measure that? Of course you cannot.

This study is specifically about the health of patients who were prayed for. Much research has been done on the relative health of married women (presumably in love) vs their single peers. Seems to me you can you measure how much love alters the outcome. [/quote]

How do you they were loved? What is the measuring stick for that?

233

[quote]Buff HardBack wrote:
pat wrote:
Buff HardBack wrote:
forlife wrote:
Of course, the point of asking about amputees is that spontaneous limb restoration is impossible. It would be a real miracle for it to happen. It’s not just a coincidence that the religious “miracles” claimed by people can all be explained by other means, but that real “miracles” which couldn’t happen spontaneously never happen.

Exactly. Its an Impossible miracle. Yet I thought that god was able to do anything.

HOW DO YOU KNOW HE HASN’T?

Ok do me a favor and do the research. I have already. It has never happened. Look all you want in every source possible and, seriously, if you find any times in history where it has happened send me the info. Id like to read about it.[/quote]

So you know have studied the case for all amputees who has ever lived and prayed or was prayed for limb restoration and you are certain that nobody in the history of man kind has ever received their limb? Either you have spent an enormous amount of time researching the matter, or you hit google and was satisfied that that is all the information on all amputees in the history of the world.
In other words, you cannot know this to be fact. It is impossible, just because you have not heard of it happening, doesnâ??t mean it hasnâ??t.

234

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pat wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I sure hope the amputee and peanut allergy questions get resolved.

And premature baldness.

And stubbed toes. Has anyone EVER seen God heal a stubbed toe? Those things hurt like the dickens (and the dickens hurtz really bad). And when I say heal a stubbed toe I mean like right away! Not later on after it starts feelin’ better!

[Still face-palming after incessant restored amputation example requests]

Should be easy enough to resolve the whole amputee thing, just present the case for all amputees that have ever lived and show that none of them ever received a limb back.

The source is a website book, so I am assuming this is where he is getting that bullshit. Don’t believe he came up with it on his own. You can join the guy’s little atheist army too, if you want.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Pat, I hope you realize my post was laced with sarcasm. The kind of sarcasm that causes me to sigh when I see this ridiculously insane interjection - “Why No Amputees” - into this and other threads. I think someone in Washington state knows right where to find the “secret mushrooms.”[/quote]

Of course.

235

[quote]pookie wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I sure hope the amputee and peanut allergy questions get resolved.

Well when cancers go into remission, we hear a lot of “it’s a miracle from God!” or when a very sick child recovers, you have all those idiots praising God instead of thanking the doctors who actually saved the kid. And on and on. Any life-threatening disease that’s somehow avoided is credited to God, but all those always have alternate explanations. Even without medical treatment, people forget that the human body can fight off and recover from many illnesses all by itself. It’s no miracle, it’s that useful immune system Evolution gave us.

The amputee question arises from the fact that such a recovery would be indeed miraculous because humans don’t spontaneously regrow limbs. It’d be a “miracle from God” that would actually be the real thing.

Of course, that’s why it has never occurred in documented history.
[/quote]

It would be prudent to take the claims of ‘miracle’ healing in a case by case basis. When one comes up, look at the facts. If there is a clear medical reason for healing, then dismiss the claim. There is no shortage of bogus claims, which piss me off. But in fairness, if there is a seemingly legit claim, give it a fair shake rather than dismissing it immediately. There certainly no shortage of claims.

236

[quote]pushharder wrote:
pookie wrote:
pushharder wrote:
I sure hope the amputee and peanut allergy questions get resolved.

Well when cancers go into remission, we hear a lot of “it’s a miracle from God!” or when a very sick child recovers, you have all those idiots praising God instead of thanking the doctors who actually saved the kid. And on and on. Any life-threatening disease that’s somehow avoided is credited to God, but all those always have alternate explanations. Even without medical treatment, people forget that the human body can fight off and recover from many illnesses all by itself. It’s no miracle, it’s that useful immune system Evolution gave us.

The amputee question arises from the fact that such a recovery would be indeed miraculous because humans don’t spontaneously regrow limbs. It’d be a “miracle from God” that would actually be the real thing.

Of course, that’s why it has never occurred in documented history.

I understand your point in your first paragraph. I do disagree but I understand where you’re coming from.

As far as “miracles from God” I believe many of them have happened that are more inspiring than replaced limbs. You don’t. I understand that.

As far as “reversed amputations” I don’t know if there have been any. I haven’t heard of them. Then again I’d never heard of Quaqtaq either.[/quote]

Just because it has not been documented doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened. Out of all the poor and uneducated regions in the world, there is certainly the possibility it happened and never was recorded. We will never know. You’d think it’d be all over the news, but there are plenty of claims of miraculous healing and you almost never here about them, so not being splashed all over the news doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

237

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Fishsticks wrote:
pat wrote:
forlife wrote:
As you say, the proof is in the pudding.

Scientific studies have looked at the effects of prayer, for example on heart patients, and have found that people prayed over by church groups recover no faster than people that don’t get prayed over. The prayer had literally zero effect.

I do think prayer can help people think more positively, and may be of use in that way. But that is a result of healthy attitudes which can be achieved without pretending to invoke divine intervention.

Another thing to consider is that people of religion A pray to their god, and are 100% convinced that their god has told them religion A is the true religion. Yet people of religion B, which directly contradicts religion A, pray to their own god, and are 100% convinced that their god has told them religion B is the true religion.

Obviously, the “answers” people receive through prayer can’t be relied on, even when you are 100% convinced that they come from your god.

You cannot quantify prayer or it’s effects…This is an area where science is misplaced and irrelevant. It’s like trying to judge the color of a wish, you can’t do it.

I hate when religious people do stuff like this. It’s such an outrageous, bullshit cop-out.
“This is totally something different man. You can’t measure it, because… you know, science measures empirical stuff… and this stuff is magical! Hence, you can’t measure it with science! Haha!”

If you have to resort to logical acrobatics and circular arguing every time you defend your religion, it SHOULD tell you something about your religion.

Yeah, I agree! Because we humans know absolutely everything that ever is or will be, damnit. There are NO confounding variables or unknowns that will EVER disturb the current scientific worldview of what IS!

…sounds like there’s a new kind of “magic” afloat, if you ask me. [/quote]

If your 5 senses cannot detect it, certainly it cannot exist!

238

[quote]pookie wrote:
clip11 wrote:
And I could go on and on…

Don’t sweat it… a bunch of believers are going to be very unhappy when you tell them the emperor has no clothes. People who have spent most of their lives living in a make-believe world get upset when you point out how reality actually works to them.
[/quote]

Oh do tell! How does reality actually work? I am seeking the path to enlightenment.

239

[quote]pat wrote:
As for the others you mentioned those are just names for the same, one God, but thanks for playing.[/quote]

Just because Muslims worship one god doesn’t mean they worship the same god you do. Their concept of god and their general theology is very different from yours. And let’s not even get into Krishna. If I worship Pook’s Vacuum Cleaner, does that mean I am worshiping the same god as you, since I am only worshiping one god?

You’re mistaken. There are many examples of scientific studies that have drawn conclusions ranging from p < .05 to p < .001.

All you have to do is show that the incidence of these “miracle healings” doesn’t exceed what would be expected by chance alone. That is exactly what was demonstrated in the prayer study for cardiac patients.

240

[quote]pat wrote:
If at any point in your life, you thought you had all the answers, then you were clearly foolish.[/quote]

I was referring to having answers to the most important questions about life:

Where did I come from?
Why am I here?
Where am I going after I die?

Many religious people insist they know the answers to the above questions, when in fact their confidence is based on wishful thinking and fairy tales.