Does Prayer Work II

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]forlife wrote:
DK 14 wrote:
You have to have faith in NOT believing in God just as you do in believing. I choose the latter. You cannot say with absolute certainty God is not real and vice versa. It comes down to what you have more faith in. Try the believing part and see it work miracles.

You’re forgetting the third choice, which to me is the most honest. Instead of randomly choosing to believe in a god or insisting that gods are impossible, you could instead admit that we don’t know and leave it at that.[/quote]

Except “leaving it at that” is intellectually lazy. You just chose not to decide.

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[quote]pat wrote:
Except “leaving it at that” is intellectually lazy. You just chose not to decide.[/quote]

Choosing to decide, without any evidence to back up your choice, is childish fantasy. Wanting something to be true doesn’t make it so. It takes courage, maturity, and integrity to admit that you don’t know when you really don’t.

164

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
BBriere wrote:
No, science is not a belief system. Science is a way of proving and explaining the natural world. Therefore scientific theories can be proved right or wrong. God cannot be proven fact or fiction. The belief in God doesn’t come from empirical evidence. It is something you have to believe or not. If you believe it you shouldn’t question the belief and want evidence. Religion can never be science just like science should never be someone’s religion.

So when I say I will never doubt the exisistence of God then it’s not a scientific theory. When I say I believe in the Big Bang Theory then, yes I can say I could be wrong because it is a part of science that may eventually some day be proven wrong.

This is a very intelligent point that you are making. We really cannot test to determine whether or not there is a God. Not only would we not really know what we were looking for (so might not even recognize God if we did find him), but we wouldn’t really know where to look.

However, one has to ask themselves how man knows/conceives of God’s presence in the first place. It’s only logical that God must have affected the physical world in some way or another (like re-encarnating Jesus as Christians believe). And if he did/does, then we can test for that, because it involves the physical/natural world; which I think was the original topic of this thread (or at least the non inflammatory one).

The tests still don’t unequivocally tell us that there is no God, or that prayer doesn’t work of course. But, they do tell us that (at least in the sample used in the earlier quoted study) there isn’t a higher prevalence of unexplained phenomenon as the result of prayer than there is without the presence of prayer.

So, it would seem that either:

  1. God is carrying out his plan regardless of what we as humans do or ask of him

  2. We still haven’t figured out the correct way to test him/aren’t looking in the right places or asking the right questions

  3. He doesn’t exist and the universe is simply based on chance

  4. He does exist but doesn’t intervene with the natural world

Whichever someone chooses is up to them. Problems only arise when people try to force others into adopting their beliefs. Live and let live.[/quote]

Well, see I have no problem with people not believing, yes I will try to share the Word with them. I have genuine sorrow for the person that does not accept God, but I do not force people into believing, it is not my job to bring them to God, it’s God’s job. I am the messenger.

Your live and let live is fine, but the problem I have with forlife, is that he comes onto a post titled ‘Does Prayer Work’ and insists that anyone who believes in praying declare their proof like an atheist, I mean agnostic secret police. He’s a troll, he does not know that God is real or not, but insists that anyone that does believe must be a loony toon because they believe in a ‘fairy tale.’ Instead of people declaring peacefully they believe that prayer works, because of whatever they have experienced. This is replaced accusations of insanity.

  • Brother
165

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
BBriere wrote:
No, science is not a belief system. Science is a way of proving and explaining the natural world. Therefore scientific theories can be proved right or wrong. God cannot be proven fact or fiction. The belief in God doesn’t come from empirical evidence. It is something you have to believe or not. If you believe it you shouldn’t question the belief and want evidence. Religion can never be science just like science should never be someone’s religion.

So when I say I will never doubt the exisistence of God then it’s not a scientific theory. When I say I believe in the Big Bang Theory then, yes I can say I could be wrong because it is a part of science that may eventually some day be proven wrong.

This is a very intelligent point that you are making. We really cannot test to determine whether or not there is a God. Not only would we not really know what we were looking for (so might not even recognize God if we did find him), but we wouldn’t really know where to look.

However, one has to ask themselves how man knows/conceives of God’s presence in the first place. It’s only logical that God must have affected the physical world in some way or another (like re-encarnating Jesus as Christians believe). And if he did/does, then we can test for that, because it involves the physical/natural world; which I think was the original topic of this thread (or at least the non inflammatory one).

The tests still don’t unequivocally tell us that there is no God, or that prayer doesn’t work of course. But, they do tell us that (at least in the sample used in the earlier quoted study) there isn’t a higher prevalence of unexplained phenomenon as the result of prayer than there is without the presence of prayer.

So, it would seem that either:

  1. God is carrying out his plan regardless of what we as humans do or ask of him

  2. We still haven’t figured out the correct way to test him/aren’t looking in the right places or asking the right questions

  3. He doesn’t exist and the universe is simply based on chance

  4. He does exist but doesn’t intervene with the natural world

Whichever someone chooses is up to them. Problems only arise when people try to force others into adopting their beliefs. Live and let live.

Well, see I have no problem with people not believing, yes I will try to share the Word with them. I have genuine sorrow for the person that does not accept God, but I do not force people into believing, it is not my job to bring them to God, it’s God’s job. I am the messenger.

Your live and let live is fine, but the problem I have with forlife, is that he comes onto a post titled ‘Does Prayer Work’ and insists that anyone who believes in praying declare their proof like an atheist, I mean agnostic secret police. He’s a troll, he does not know that God is real or not, but insists that anyone that does believe must be a loony toon because they believe in a ‘fairy tale.’ Instead of people declaring peacefully they believe that prayer works, because of whatever they have experienced. This is replaced accusations of insanity.

  • Brother[/quote]

Well, first I wasn’t pointing any fingers at anyone with my post. I can’t really blame you for getting defensive at someone trashing your belief system. I think that most people would do the same (regardless of their belief system).

But at the same time, is getting mad at him and insulting his lifestyle/belief system really making things any better (rhetorical question, again not necessarily aimed at you)? Didn’t Jesus say to “turn the other cheek” in regards to an insult? I mean, if he’s accusing believers of being looney or below average intelligence, wouldn’t engaging with him in an intelligent and calm manner be a better retort than any insult?

Religion is just one of those topics that can readily turn otherwise intelligent, well spoken, perfectly logical people into foaming at the mouth lunatics (on both sides). It’s probably one of the most (if not THE most) polarizing subjects on the planet earth.

Again, personally I could care less whether someone is Atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Christian, Harre Chrishna, Hindu, whatever as long as they don’t try to force their beliefs on others. If everyone simply allowed other people to live their lives the way they saw fit (as long as it didn’t hinder others from doing the same of course) without ridiculing or judging them (which btw is a very unChristian thing to do) then there would be a lot less venom in the world.

As far as testifying is concerned, I’ve gotta say that in my experience that generally just pushes most people away. The only method that really seems to work is simply living by example. Words are cheap, but actions speak much louder. If you are truly content and glowing with life force, generally people will come to you wanting to know what your secret is. That’s when I think testifying really has a good chance of getting through because the people actually want to hear it.

166

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

As far as testifying is concerned, I’ve gotta say that in my experience that generally just pushes most people away. The only method that really seems to work is simply living by example. Words are cheap, but actions speak much louder. If you are truly content and glowing with life force, generally people will come to you wanting to know what your secret is. That’s when I think testifying really has a good chance of getting through because the people actually want to hear it.[/quote]

I agree completely. I have seen plenty of people and been guilty myself of not practicing what is preched. We are all guilty of it. It’s not so much important as to impress others with our convictions, but it goes against teachings of almost any religion to live a wicked life. It’s funny, we had a running joke at the last school I worked at. There were several teachers that would constantly scowl, say nasty things, and argue with others. When you asked them how they were doing though the answer was always “Blessed.” I personally hope to never be as “Blessed” as they are.

I would much rather deal with somebody of a different faith or no faith at all that “walked the walk” rather than a “Christian” that spoke one thing and did another. In my dealings of people of different faiths I have found that typically Muslims are the most convicted to what they say.

167

[quote]BBriere wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

As far as testifying is concerned, I’ve gotta say that in my experience that generally just pushes most people away. The only method that really seems to work is simply living by example. Words are cheap, but actions speak much louder. If you are truly content and glowing with life force, generally people will come to you wanting to know what your secret is. That’s when I think testifying really has a good chance of getting through because the people actually want to hear it.

I agree completely. I have seen plenty of people and been guilty myself of not practicing what is preched. We are all guilty of it. It’s not so much important as to impress others with our convictions, but it goes against teachings of almost any religion to live a wicked life. It’s funny, we had a running joke at the last school I worked at. There were several teachers that would constantly scowl, say nasty things, and argue with others. When you asked them how they were doing though the answer was always “Blessed.” I personally hope to never be as “Blessed” as they are.

I would much rather deal with somebody of a different faith or no faith at all that “walked the walk” rather than a “Christian” that spoke one thing and did another. In my dealings of people of different faiths I have found that typically Muslims are the most convicted to what they say.
[/quote]

I’ve had some of those same circumstances occur in my life. I am known in my area as a Chirstian and therefore others have told me that they too are Christians yet they don’t really seem to act like Christians. I look for their “fruit” and cannot find any. What I do find does not seem very Godly to me.

I’m reminded of a scripture in the book of James 2:18

“You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.”

168

[quote]ZEB wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

As far as testifying is concerned, I’ve gotta say that in my experience that generally just pushes most people away. The only method that really seems to work is simply living by example. Words are cheap, but actions speak much louder.

If you are truly content and glowing with life force, generally people will come to you wanting to know what your secret is. That’s when I think testifying really has a good chance of getting through because the people actually want to hear it.

I agree completely. I have seen plenty of people and been guilty myself of not practicing what is preched. We are all guilty of it. It’s not so much important as to impress others with our convictions, but it goes against teachings of almost any religion to live a wicked life.

It’s funny, we had a running joke at the last school I worked at. There were several teachers that would constantly scowl, say nasty things, and argue with others. When you asked them how they were doing though the answer was always “Blessed.” I personally hope to never be as “Blessed” as they are.

I would much rather deal with somebody of a different faith or no faith at all that “walked the walk” rather than a “Christian” that spoke one thing and did another. In my dealings of people of different faiths I have found that typically Muslims are the most convicted to what they say.

I’ve had some of those same circumstances occur in my life. I am known in my area as a Chirstian and therefore others have told me that they too are Christians yet they don’t really seem to act like Christians. I look for their “fruit” and cannot find any. What I do find does not seem very Godly to me.

I’m reminded of a scripture in the book of James 2:18

“You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.”
[/quote]

Word, I am as well known as a Christian among friends, yet some people have a skewed view of what Christian’s are. Yet, sometimes you have to realise that people are not always going to be content with themselves to approach you. So, sometimes an offering of God’s grace is needed. Plus, as little as a leaflet will do.

  • Brother
169

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
ZEB wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

As far as testifying is concerned, I’ve gotta say that in my experience that generally just pushes most people away. The only method that really seems to work is simply living by example. Words are cheap, but actions speak much louder.

If you are truly content and glowing with life force, generally people will come to you wanting to know what your secret is. That’s when I think testifying really has a good chance of getting through because the people actually want to hear it.

I agree completely. I have seen plenty of people and been guilty myself of not practicing what is preched. We are all guilty of it. It’s not so much important as to impress others with our convictions, but it goes against teachings of almost any religion to live a wicked life.

It’s funny, we had a running joke at the last school I worked at. There were several teachers that would constantly scowl, say nasty things, and argue with others. When you asked them how they were doing though the answer was always “Blessed.” I personally hope to never be as “Blessed” as they are.

I would much rather deal with somebody of a different faith or no faith at all that “walked the walk” rather than a “Christian” that spoke one thing and did another. In my dealings of people of different faiths I have found that typically Muslims are the most convicted to what they say.

I’ve had some of those same circumstances occur in my life. I am known in my area as a Chirstian and therefore others have told me that they too are Christians yet they don’t really seem to act like Christians. I look for their “fruit” and cannot find any. What I do find does not seem very Godly to me.

I’m reminded of a scripture in the book of James 2:18

“You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.”

Word, I am as well known as a Christian among friends, yet some people have a skewed view of what Christian’s are. Yet, sometimes you have to realise that people are not always going to be content with themselves to approach you. So, sometimes an offering of God’s grace is needed. Plus, as little as a leaflet will do.

  • Brother[/quote]

It’s a tricky subject though. If you can see that someone is truly down and you truly believe that you have something that can help improve their life, it’s only natural to want to share it with them.

That’s not the same as just walking up to random people who are going about their day stopping them and trying to force feed rhetoric down their throats. And unfortunately, that’s what happens a lot of times. Often times people have only the best of intentions, but can’t see how rude and pushy they are being because they are so enthusiastic about what they are talking about. They’ve been surrounded by like minded people for so long that they cannot see things from the other person’s perspective.

It’s also unfortunately not all that difficult to understand why people have a skewed view of what a Christian is (take a quick look back through history at the Catholic church, or some of the radicals who align themselves with Christianity for example). Interestingly though, if you ask pretty much any non Christian (be they atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc…) what they think of Jesus the person they pretty much only have good things to say. It’s pretty tough to dislike someone who was honest, integral, understanding, intelligent, peaceful, loving/caring, strong/brave, generous, non-judgemental, forgiving, and willing to pay the ultimate price for what he believed in.

170

Religion of any sort for many is hard because it requires the total surrender of the self. Islam for instance means submission to God. It’s naturally going to be difficult to give up control and be willing to live by faith. I know that it sounds judgmental, but we that are faithful must try to live above others.

If someone is a non believer and they do and say terrible things people just think of them as crap. If someone is a believer and they do and say terrible things then they are associating God with those acts. Instantly people will say, “and he is supposed to be Christian.” You definitely have to do more than just speak your faith. You have to show it with your deeds.

I think even some Christians have gotten a little misled over the years because during the Reformation the emphasis changed to being saved by Grace, therefore deeds weren’t necessary. You have a lot of people that go to church every time the doors are open, but they do very little in the real world to share their faith with others or help where it is needed.

Unfortunately, we also live in an age where increasingly people are joining churches that play to their self worship. Televised services mean that people don’t even have to make the sacrifice of giving up time at home. Books and CDs mean that people can serve whenever it is convenient to them.

Usually these are coming from men and women that preach it’s God’s will for humans to amass wealth and get what they are deserving of. If we look in the Bible we see that as humans we are deserving of nothing but are given salvation because of they Grace of God.

171

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
He’s a troll, he does not know that God is real or not, but insists that anyone that does believe must be a loony toon because they believe in a ‘fairy tale.’[/quote]

Many of the believers in this thread have said themselves that they have no proof whatsoever to justify their belief, so what the hell do you expect people to think? Calling it “faith” doesn’t change the fact that the belief is not justified by any actual evidence.

As I’ve pointed out several times now, having a warm fuzzy feeling when you pray doesn’t constitute proof. Believing that god has answered your prayers isn’t proof. As a devout Mormon, I believed very deeply that god had answered my prayers, and had confirmed through the power of the Holy Ghost that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. How do you explain that? Clearly, believing that god has spoken to you and witnessed himself in your life doesn’t mean this has actually happened.

You dismiss Mormon fairy tales for the silliness that they are, but are not equally rigorous and honest in evaluating your own fairy tales.

172

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Interestingly though, if you ask pretty much any non Christian (be they atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc…) what they think of Jesus the person they pretty much only have good things to say. It’s pretty tough to dislike someone who was honest, integral, understanding, intelligent, peaceful, loving/caring, strong/brave, generous, non-judgemental, forgiving, and willing to pay the ultimate price for what he believed in.[/quote]

Exactly. If Jesus was a real person, I have nothing but respect for the guy. If people actually took the time to read and live what he taught, the world would be a better place. Unfortunately, some of the world’s worst atrocities have been committed in the name of Jesus.

173

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Except “leaving it at that” is intellectually lazy. You just chose not to decide.

Choosing to decide, without any evidence to back up your choice, is childish fantasy. Wanting something to be true doesn’t make it so. It takes courage, maturity, and integrity to admit that you don’t know when you really don’t.[/quote]

I am saying you gave up. It does not take courage, maturity, and integrity or what other self aggrandizing term you wish to use, to just give up.
You should never stop seeking the truth, just because you have not found the answer, does not mean there is no answer.

174

[quote]pat wrote:
I am saying you gave up. It does not take courage, maturity, and integrity or what other self aggrandizing term you wish to use, to just give.
You should never stop seeking the truth, just because you have not found the answer, does not mean there is no answer.[/quote]

I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I specifically said that my approach to truth is to continue searching for evidence and revise my opinions accordingly based on that evidence.

Giving up, if you want to call it that, is what believers and atheists do. They reach a conclusion without supporting evidence, and refuse to consider any evidence that contradicts their predetermined conclusion.

175

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
I am saying you gave up. It does not take courage, maturity, and integrity or what other self aggrandizing term you wish to use, to just give.
You should never stop seeking the truth, just because you have not found the answer, does not mean there is no answer.

I never suggested otherwise. In fact, I specifically said that my approach to truth is to continue searching for evidence and revise my opinions accordingly based on that evidence.

Giving up, if you want to call it that, is what believers and atheists do. They reach a conclusion without supporting evidence, and refuse to consider any evidence that contradicts their predetermined conclusion.
[/quote]

Incorrect. Some may do this and many do, but many also reach their conclusions based on a prori and/or a posteriori knowledge. Such knowledge leads me to believe athiests are incorrect in their conclusions or have failed to consider all the evidence or arguments available.
Not knowing is one thing, but one cannot make useful arguments out of a ‘don’t know’ conclusion. It’s not rigid enough.

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…do you really want to include atheïsts in this statement?

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[quote]pat wrote:Incorrect. Some may do this and many do, but many also reach their conclusions based on a prori and/or a posteriori knowledge. Such knowledge leads me to believe athiests are incorrect in their conclusions or have failed to consider all the evidence or arguments available.
Not knowing is one thing, but one cannot make useful arguments out of a ‘don’t know’ conclusion. It’s not rigid enough.[/quote]

…there’s another option pat: not everybody needs a rigid structure to build a life on, or to base morality on, or to keep them on the straight and narrow. I’ve been searching, discussing, reading, meditating, thinking, writing, contemplating and realising since '95. My search has been sincere, and i’ve seen and experienced odd things, painful triggers, my dark side…

…i’ve also had experiences that can be seen as enlightening, mystical or God-given, but none of those experiences gave rise to the need to believe, as if those beliefs could add something that wasn’t there before. Instead, i prefer/enjoy the emptiness of not-knowing. It’s different strokes, that’s all…

178

[quote]pat wrote:
Incorrect. Some may do this and many do, but many also reach their conclusions based on a prori and/or a posteriori knowledge.[/quote]

Such as?

[quote]Such knowledge leads me to believe athiests are incorrect in their conclusions or have failed to consider all the evidence or arguments available. Not knowing is one thing, but one cannot make useful arguments out of a ‘don’t know’ conclusion. It’s not rigid enough.
[/quote]

I agree, which is why I included atheists in my statement. I don’t think we know enough to definitively rule out the possibility of any god existing.

We also don’t know enough to conclude that any particular god exists.

Which is why agnosticism is the most honest and correct approach, based on what we currently know. That may change at some future point, but for now we simply don’t know and shouldn’t pretend like we do.

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[quote]ephrem wrote:
…do you really want to include atheÃ?¯sts in this statement? [/quote]

Yes. We don’t know for a fact that it is impossible for any god(s) to exist. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

I think it’s unlikely that god(s) exist, but don’t think we have enough information to rule out the possibility entirely.

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[quote]forlife wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…do you really want to include atheÃ??Ã?¯sts in this statement?

Yes. We don’t know for a fact that it is impossible for any god(s) to exist. Absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.

I think it’s unlikely that god(s) exist, but don’t think we have enough information to rule out the possibility entirely.[/quote]

…for me, and i imagine for other atheists aswell, the odds that god exist are so small that it becomes irrelevant. It’s not like the belief in god is a matter of life and death, is it?