[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
No, but I just wonder what set it in motion. Itself?[/quote]
What if it has always been in motion? Scientists have proposed an infinite series of expansions and contractions as one possibility.
Well, by your logic (which is not wrong) something had to first set it in motion. Things do not just all of a sudden move, even if they already exist forever. So, give me one to explain why the universe is in motion.
Why did something first have to set it in motion? What about the possibility that it has always been in motion?
What is so hard to accept about the universe always existing, and always being in motion, when it is so easy to accept the idea of a supernatural being that has always existed and always been in motion?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Why did something first have to set it in motion? What about the possibility that it has always been in motion?
What is so hard to accept about the universe always existing, and always being in motion, when it is so easy to accept the idea of a supernatural being that has always existed and always been in motion?[/quote]
Because a supernatural beings can set things in motion, the universe is not a supernatural being.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Because a supernatural beings can set things in motion, the universe is not a supernatural being.[/quote]
What set the supernatural being in motion?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Because a supernatural beings can set things in motion, the universe is not a supernatural being.
What set the supernatural being in motion?[/quote]
If it it the uncaused cause, nothing it has always been in motion. But unless you are willing to admit that dirt is above you and created you then I guess you can accept the universe as a supernatural being. However, I do not think dirt created me.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If it it the uncaused cause, nothing it has always been in motion. But unless you are willing to admit that dirt is above you and created you then I guess you can accept the universe as a supernatural being. However, I do not think dirt created me.[/quote]
So the real reason you’re unwilling to accept the possibility that the universe has always existed is that you find it personally demeaning?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
If it it the uncaused cause, nothing it has always been in motion. But unless you are willing to admit that dirt is above you and created you then I guess you can accept the universe as a supernatural being. However, I do not think dirt created me.
So the real reason you’re unwilling to accept the possibility that the universe has always existed is that you find it personally demeaning?[/quote]
Yes, call it grandiose sense of self-worth, but it is an insult to my intellect to tell me that dirt created me. Plus it does not compute with Natural Laws. If the universe is not Super Natural, then how is the earth spinning, or is that a figment of my imagination and I am not really here.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Yes, call it grandiose sense of self-worth, but it is an insult to my intellect to tell me that dirt created me. Plus it does not compute with Natural Laws. If the universe is not Super Natural, then how is the earth spinning, or is that a figment of my imagination and I am not really here.[/quote]
You believe the earth is spinning due to supernatural forces? Really?
Well, you wouldn’t be the first to ascribe natural phenomena to supernatural causes. The Greeks and Romans believed the movement of the sun across the sky HAD to be caused by the supernatural, in this case the sun god Apollo, since they couldn’t conceive of a natural explanation. What hicks, eh?
[quote]forlife wrote:
If it’s an “infinite cycle of birth, death, and rebirth” then by definition the universe had no beginning and has no end.
[/quote]
This is much easier to accept than an all-knowing, infinite existing, highly complex entity pulling all the strings. There is another hypothesis that there are actually many universes out there:
From the Kirkus review on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195126645/reasonmagazineA
So this seems to have shifted from if prayer works to how to prove the existence of God and the history of the universe. When I was about 10 years younger I went through a long phase non believing. I wanted some sort of proof that there was a God and that it was the God I had been taught about as a child. I’m glad that I did. I feel now I’m more rooted in my faith knowing that I didn’t just believe what was told to me, but I actually felt what I believed. I would recommend everyone finding their own answer. I can tell you that I have felt and seen what prayer can do, but it only works if you believe in what you are praying for. I’m perfectly fine with people that do not believe in God. As long as they aren’t as diehard in trying to dismiss the belief in God as some of their believer counterparts are in trying to condemn those that don’t believe.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
So this seems to have shifted from if prayer works to how to prove the existence of God and the history of the universe. When I was about 10 years younger I went through a long phase non believing. I wanted some sort of proof that there was a God and that it was the God I had been taught about as a child. I’m glad that I did. I feel now I’m more rooted in my faith knowing that I didn’t just believe what was told to me, but I actually felt what I believed. I would recommend everyone finding their own answer. I can tell you that I have felt and seen what prayer can do, but it only works if you believe in what you are praying for. I’m perfectly fine with people that do not believe in God. As long as they aren’t as diehard in trying to dismiss the belief in God as some of their believer counterparts are in trying to condemn those that don’t believe.[/quote]
Well said. Too bad everyone cant be like this.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Yes, call it grandiose sense of self-worth, but it is an insult to my intellect to tell me that dirt created me. Plus it does not compute with Natural Laws. If the universe is not Super Natural, then how is the earth spinning, or is that a figment of my imagination and I am not really here.
You believe the earth is spinning due to supernatural forces? Really?
Well, you wouldn’t be the first to ascribe natural phenomena to supernatural causes. The Greeks and Romans believed the movement of the sun across the sky HAD to be caused by the supernatural, in this case the sun god Apollo, since they couldn’t conceive of a natural explanation. What hicks, eh?[/quote]
Not saying that the earth is spinning solely because of super natural powers. I am not an idiot, but you on the other hand claim that clumps of dirt and rock just started moving one day. For no reason. So, either the Universe has existed forever and is somehow super natural, or it was created and set in motion.
Now here is my 2 cents so you can listen or not since it’s just my opinion. I don’t condemn anyone’s beliefs and want the same in return from them. Sometimes I see people that point to scientific evidence such as in the origins of the universe. Often people that make the boldest claims about the universe’s origin or other things are doing so on pure faith. They put faith in what they have been told by scientists.
I mean I believe in the Big Bang Theory myself, but have I ever done the quantum mechanics to prove it? No. I’ve read where other scientists have, but how do I know they didn’t make miscalculations? After all, scientists used to claim that the Earth was the center of the universe. They even came up with amazing calculations to prove why the other planets orbited the Earth in such a bizarre pattern. People took it as the truth for centuries. Later scientists had it figured out that the sun was the center of the universe.
It made sense since everything we can see revolves around the sun. Now we know the sun isn’t even the center of our galaxy, and we have no idea where the universe center would be since the universe it infinite. Same thing with spontaneous generation. Scientists didn’t prove until the middle ages that maggots didn’t just burst forth from the air around garbage. So before anybody on either side attacks the beliefs of the other think about why you believe what you believe.
[quote]BBriere wrote:
I can tell you that I have felt and seen what prayer can do, but it only works if you believe in what you are praying for. I’m perfectly fine with people that do not believe in God. As long as they aren’t as diehard in trying to dismiss the belief in God as some of their believer counterparts are in trying to condemn those that don’t believe.[/quote]
While I can’t personally accept emotions as evidence for a supernatural being, I respect the right of people to believe whatever makes sense to them. I genuinely appreciate your “live and let live” attitude, and wish more believers shared your perspective.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Not saying that the earth is spinning solely because of super natural powers. I am not an idiot, but you on the other hand claim that clumps of dirt and rock just started moving one day. For no reason. So, either the Universe has existed forever and is somehow super natural, or it was created and set in motion.[/quote]
Solely? As in the spinning of the earth depends in part on supernatural powers, and would stop spinning if those magical powers went away? I’m curious if you believe that, and if so, why?
Although I’ve said this repeatedly, you’re still missing it so here it is in bold:
I’m not claiming the universe just decided to start moving one day, for no reason. I’m claiming the universe, or a series of universes, has ALWAYS EXISTED, AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN IN MOTION.
Why are you assuming that something has to be supernatural in order to exist forever? Do you not understand that the First Law of Thermodynamics says that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed? What is supernatural about that?
[quote]BBriere wrote:
Often people that make the boldest claims about the universe’s origin or other things are doing so on pure faith. They put faith in what they have been told by scientists. [/quote]
Sometimes science gets things wrong, just like religion. The difference is that science never claims to know the absolute truth, is constantly looking for new evidence, and is willing to revise its theories as needed based on that evidence.
How often does this happen with religion? Instead of using objective methods for determining truth, and basing beliefs on accumulating evidence, religion promotes “faith” as a good thing, and makes absolute, black and white statements about the origin of the universe, the existence of supernatural beings, and the ultimate fate of mankind.
Hello,
Just thought I would chime in, it’s been a while.
Sometimes Science gets things wrong? How can anyone put any credence in something that’s sole purpose is to prove itself wrong? I know, I KNOW, Science has a place in this world, and without it we may have never discovered certain important things. But, to say science is the all powerful end to any debate, is just as rediculous as saying some religious leader has the answers to all questions.
There is only one true Religion, and only one person who has the answers to all questions. The true religion is not here on this earth and the one who has all the answers is not either. So, we can strive to be the best we can and let the chips fall where they may. Religion is not the problem, people are the problem. People make black and white statements, about the origin of the universe in the name of religion and in the name of science. The fact that science is so willing to bend and shape itself into whatever or whoever is willing to pay top dollar should make an intelligent person like yourself step back and wonder.
Is there a God? I’m not going to debate with you, but, In my own personal life I choose to say, yes and I try to live the life he would have me live. I’m not always right, and I don’t always do the right thing, but I choose to believe that he does exist, and then when I die, if I’m wrong, I guess when I come back as a snail, I can say, at least when I was a human I lived a good life. And, hope some tree hugging, snail loving, earth saving chick like Megan Fox puts me in an aquarium in her bedroom with a perfect view of the bath.
[quote]forlife wrote:
BBriere wrote:
Often people that make the boldest claims about the universe’s origin or other things are doing so on pure faith. They put faith in what they have been told by scientists.
Sometimes science gets things wrong, just like religion. The difference is that science never claims to know the absolute truth, is constantly looking for new evidence, and is willing to revise its theories as needed based on that evidence.
How often does this happen with religion? Instead of using objective methods for determining truth, and basing beliefs on accumulating evidence, religion promotes “faith” as a good thing, and makes absolute, black and white statements about the origin of the universe, the existence of supernatural beings, and the ultimate fate of mankind.[/quote]
I realize there is a big difference in science and religion. Personally, I have never regarded the Bible as a science book. That’s not it’s purpose. I’ve also never considered it the role of any religion to define anything scientific. Anyone looking for scientific proof from any religion is going to be very disappointed. Therein lies the difference. Religion is a belief or “faith” if you will. Whether you believe or not there is no way to prove it. Science is constantly revising itself because it’s not a belief or faith. It’s based on observations. I’ve just found that some people that slam religion as blind faith take the word as science as the gospel truth without even really knowing how scientists arrived at their conclusions. You also have those on the other side that dismiss science because of faith despite overwhelming evidence. Personally the study of science was one of the most awe inspiring religious moments for me. If you believe that God created everything then to find out how perfect the universe really is becomes simply incredible.
[quote]Bigd1970 wrote:
Sometimes Science gets things wrong? How can anyone put any credence in something that’s sole purpose is to prove itself wrong?[/quote]
The purpose of science is to get things right. It achieves that purpose by constantly scrutinizing the evidence, and making refinements as needed based on that evidence, in a progressive path toward knowing the actual facts. Science does a remarkable job at that, you only need to look around you to note the fruits of the scientific method.
Do you think that choosing to have “faith” in some belief system, without any objective evidence to support that faith, and refusing to consider any evidence that contradicts your pet beliefs, is a more honest approach that is more likely to result in actual facts?
I completely agree with living a good life, I just don’t believe it is necessary to have faith in a supernatural being in order to do so. In fact, I frequently see people NOT living as good a life as they could, due to a flawed belief system, and the “values” that flow from those flawed beliefs.