Does HIV Cause AIDS?

Damici,

[quote]Damici wrote:
chinadoll wrote:
Damici~
What does Fumento say about HIV/AIDS in the countries with high rates of them, male versus female?

Check out the second link I posted.[/quote]

From your link:

[quote]CA: What are your thoughts on Africa, where the majority of instances are reported to be transmitted heterosexually?

Fumento: I actually have an entire chapter in my book entitled ?But What About Africa?? The first thing to understand is that all diseases have different patterns from continent to continent. In Africa, there is a huge problem with tuberculosis and malaria; the United States has TB, the United States has malaria, but very few people get these diseases in the United States, and almost nobody dies from them any more. Beyond that, it is important to ask, what are the differences in Africa?

Well the major one in Africa is that they do not spend much money on hygiene. They are just the pits. One reflection of that is that they don’t have the money to clean up the blood supply. This is especially a problem in a continent where whole-body transfusions are used to treat malaria.

So, they?re getting it from the blood supply and they?re also getting it from the hospitals and clinics, because again, they can’t afford to simply discard their syringes and needles like we do in the United States. They feel that they have to reuse them. In doing so, they are spreading AIDS in their hospitals similar to how we spread AIDS in our ?shooting galleries? that is, among intravenous drug users. [/quote]

The above seems to be a bit of an outdated (and too generalising) argument: “Infections as a result of contaminated blood products, blood transfusions or a lack of infection control measures in health care settings are generally on the decline, but remain problems in some countries. The percentage of total reported AIDS cases attributed to contaminated blood decreased from 12% in 1993 to 0.4% in 2003 (WHO/EMRO, 2005).”
http://www.who.int/hiv/epi-update2005_en.pdf

This is the only reference I could find in the WHO report on this topic (it refers to Middle East and North Africa) - I think this shows its significance.

[quote]Now, what things like this do is that they create a reservoir of AIDS among the heterosexuals so that if I went to a singles bar where I live in the United States, maybe one in 5,000 girls in that singles bar are infected with the AIDS virus. If I brought a girl home, I would have a one in 5,000 chance. If I went to a singles bar in Kinshasa, Zaire, I might have a one in five chance of bringing home an infected person. Clearly, the more people out there infected, the more potential there is to infect even more people.

Now the final fact, and perhaps the most important in Africa, is the “sexually transmitted disease co-factor.” What this means is that 30 diseases, such as syphilis, cause lesions in the genitals, both the penis and the vagina, and greatly facilitate the transmission of the AIDS virus. Africa is absolutely ripe with these diseases?[/quote]

Interesting that with this argument he opens up the possibility of female to male transmission - when a STD is already prevalent. Check http://www.cdc.gov for an update on STDs in the US.

And here is, where I have the biggest problem with his argument - HIV is a problem that is not only concerning other countries than the US; it is a worldwide problem, and shrugging it off as a small danger to the US population is indeed very problematic:

Yes, most likely, there will be no epidemic among the heterosexual population in the US, but not because there is no “female to male” transmission (the whole report firmly supports that fact), but because the US were “lucky” as it did mainly hit a minority first.

In countries where this didn?t happen, there is an epidemic and creating a false sense of safety has been a feature in many of them, before it became one.

"Denmark, France, Germany and Sweden, at least one third of HIV infections attributable to heterosexual contact were probably acquired abroad, mostly in sub-Saharan Africa. Most HIV-infected migrants are unaware of their serostatus, and many of them are women.

For example, among HIV diagnoses attributed to heterosexual contact in France during 2003, 69% were migrants, almost two thirds (65%) of who were women (Lot et al., 2004). In the 18 western European countries with HIV data for 2004, women comprised 35% of all new diagnoses, up from 29% in 2000 (EuroHIV, 2005). Prevention, treatment and care strategies in Western Europe have to be adapted in order to reach migrant populations and women more effectively."

http://www.who.int/hiv/epi-update2005_en.pdf

That it has not become an epidemic, can IMO mostly be attributed to high levels of alertness and some (perhaps overblown) alarmism. With the fear of the disease on the decline, and international travel (sex tourism anyone?) it is important to be watchful and continuously careful. A “this is only a minority / non-US problem” mentality is problematic at best.

Makkun

[quote]Damici wrote:
Wow, Vroom, panties all in a twist! I’m surprised at you! YOU’RE usually the guy who says, “I’m not necessarily saying this is or isn’t right, I’m just throwing it there to get a discussion going!” My, my!

[/quote]

Welcome to the club. He’s baiting you.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Did you actually read my post Damici? I’m perfectly willing to accept that mistakes were made and so forth. I’ve suggested something that some people argue for that I think is quite inappropriate.

Figure out what you are arguing for, or against, and simply let us know.[/quote]

Vroom,

I’ll write more later, since I have stuff to do this morning, but I still find it massively ironic that you, of ALL people, who actually have a habit of doing precisely what I just mentioned (claiming you’re throwing somehting out there without taking a position on it, just to “start a disussion”), are just about peeing yourself because you want me to take a position so badly! Funny that. :slight_smile:

I’ll respond to the rest of what you asked later.

Damici, it wasn’t clear to me that you were just throwing things out for arguments sake.

If you are just stirring the pot, then fine, but generally in such an instance when you touch upon some very revolting subject matter it is common to remind people that you are in fact just discussing it, not promoting it.

You are skirting pretty close to some pretty disgusting ideas. If you don’t wish to align yourselves with those thoughts, just do as you say, make it clear what your position is or that you have no position… no big deal.

On the other hand, telling us, as a concluding statement, that we need to think about the issues that some author is raising, tends to suggest that you are in agreement with what the author suggests to some degree.

From there, I’ve simply asked for clarification. So, instead of imagining some insulting reaction on my part, why don’t you just clarify?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Damici, it wasn’t clear to me that you were just throwing things out for arguments sake.

If you are just stirring the pot, then fine, but generally in such an instance when you touch upon some very revolting subject matter it is common to remind people that you are in fact just discussing it, not promoting it.

You are skirting pretty close to some pretty disgusting ideas. If you don’t wish to align yourselves with those thoughts, just do as you say, make it clear what your position is or that you have no position… no big deal.

On the other hand, telling us, as a concluding statement, that we need to think about the issues that some author is raising, tends to suggest that you are in agreement with what the author suggests to some degree.

From there, I’ve simply asked for clarification. So, instead of imagining some insulting reaction on my part, why don’t you just clarify?[/quote]

“Skirting pretty close to some pretty disgusting ideas??” The fuck are you talking about, Vroom??

Perhaps it wasn’t clear enough to you many posts ago when I ended a post or two saying, quote, “Just something to ponder.”

You’re asking me (again, you, of all people :slight_smile: ) for a concluding statement stating that I think I know all the answers. I don’t. BUT, as far as what I think so far, having read what I’ve read of Fumento’s ideas, I already DID post THIS:

“He also points out that gay rights and AIDS activist groups are, understandably, upset about his conclusions because their ability to drum up funding for AIDS research is dependant on everyone, including the majority of Americans (most of whom are straight and don’t use intravenous drugs) believing that it’s something that could affect them, and therefore supporting funding for it. While the truth about HIV’s very low levels of existence in the straight, non-drug-using community will probably have the unfortunate effect of reducing public (and private) monies that are spent on AIDS research, he points out that diseases like cancer and Alzheimer’s and many others kill FAR more people than AIDS does, yet often don’t get nearly as much funding, so perhaps a refocusing of funding would be a sensible thing.”

Clear enough for ya’ the second time around?

Damici,

Maybe it isn’t clear to you, but I’ve already conceded that different groups have hyped up issues and so forth.

I really don’t think that is news to anyone!

Was that all, because you seemed to be implying much more earlier?

What more, prey tell, are you looking for, Vroom? I know you’re just trying to stir up shit, but please be specific regarding exactly what type of shit you’d like to see stirred, and how much further you’d like it stirred. And whether you’d prefer said shit to then be simmered gently or cooked at a medium boil.

I was quite specific in my last post.

[quote]Damici wrote:
What more, prey tell, are you looking for, Vroom? I know you’re just trying to stir up shit, but please be specific regarding exactly what type of shit you’d like to see stirred, and how much further you’d like it stirred. And whether you’d prefer said shit to then be simmered gently or cooked at a medium boil.

I was quite specific in my last post.
[/quote]

Stop playing innocent.

There are underlying issues that can be discussed, if you would stop pretending you don’t know what they are.

[quote]Damici wrote:
What more, prey tell, are you looking for, Vroom? I know you’re just trying to stir up shit, but please be specific regarding exactly what type of shit you’d like to see stirred, and how much further you’d like it stirred. And whether you’d prefer said shit to then be simmered gently or cooked at a medium boil.

I was quite specific in my last post.
[/quote]

Damici, please remember that you are communicating with Vroom. No more needs to be said…

[quote]vroom wrote:
Damici wrote:
What more, prey tell, are you looking for, Vroom? I know you’re just trying to stir up shit, but please be specific regarding exactly what type of shit you’d like to see stirred, and how much further you’d like it stirred. And whether you’d prefer said shit to then be simmered gently or cooked at a medium boil.

I was quite specific in my last post.

Stop playing innocent.

There are underlying issues that can be discussed, if you would stop pretending you don’t know what they are.
[/quote]

Alright, so I assume I can laugh you off now. :slight_smile: Very funny. :slight_smile:

Wow, some people really are blind. I guess it was my mistake for figuring people understood some of the issues in the background here.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Wow, some people really are blind. I guess it was my mistake for figuring people understood some of the issues in the background here.[/quote]

Yup, you’re just smarter than all of us, Vroom. Sorry we can’t read your mind and know what it is you’re wondering. Cheerio. :slight_smile:

[quote]Damici wrote:
Yup, you’re just smarter than all of us, Vroom. Sorry we can’t read your mind and know what it is you’re wondering. Cheerio. :)[/quote]

No, you are just enjoying sparring with me and playing innocent while hiding your own opinions behind the words of some other author.

H2 on the other hand has decided to follow me around and make stupid comments every chance he gets. You’d think the Internet was his new toy or something.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Damici wrote:
Yup, you’re just smarter than all of us, Vroom. Sorry we can’t read your mind and know what it is you’re wondering. Cheerio. :slight_smile:

No, you are just enjoying sparring with me and playing innocent while hiding your own opinions behind the words of some other author.

H2 on the other hand has decided to follow me around and make stupid comments every chance he gets. You’d think the Internet was his new toy or something.[/quote]

Innocent to what? I’ve told you time and time again: Ask me a fucking question and I’ll answer it.

are you guys done flirting? good, although in the western world the disparity between the levels of HIV in heterosexuals comparison to homosexuals is pronounced it is opposite in the rest of the world. The reason why that it is considered a “gay” disease is because of its method of transmission. Like most viruses it is unable to infect humans through intact epidermal skin, however it can infect those who have compromised skin ( cuts etc ) or through mucosal layers,

the reason why heterosexual men are at lower risk than gay men is because a) levels of HIV are lower in female vaginal excretions and b) the most vulnerable location for infection is the mucosal layer present on the male forskin, incidently being circumsized significantly reduces the risk of a heterosexual man being infected because of the removal of this mucosa, which is why in africa there are many mass circumsizion (sp) programs.

Now the reason why both gay men ( and women ) have elevated risks is because semen has higher virion counts as well as the fact that both the anus and the vagina have mucosal layers that can be invaded by the virus. Furthermore the risk of anal sex is elevated because the anus wasn’t meant to be penetrated and thus is at far more risk to get microtears which compromise the skin seal leading increasing the likelyhood of infection.

oh yeah, one more thing, being circumsized also “toughens” the penis reducing the likelyhood of cuts and thus infection.

Interesting; I never new that about circumcision and the mucosal layer, etc.

[quote]zarathus wrote:
Also, I’ve read work suggesting the virulence of AIDS in Africa may have something to do with malnutrition, as an aggravating (but definitely not mediating) factor. I want to point out that there is debate in the field, but that it’s settled the point of whether HIV is causative or not.

I would say regarding perish or publish (I’m working on a PhD) that you have a lot more to gain by knocking down the dominant theory (whether or not you have one of your own, unfortunately) than youd do by incrementally confirming the dominant theory. [/quote]

Thank you person who knows of what they speak.
Good posts.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Damici wrote:
Yup, you’re just smarter than all of us, Vroom. Sorry we can’t read your mind and know what it is you’re wondering. Cheerio. :slight_smile:

No, you are just enjoying sparring with me and playing innocent while hiding your own opinions behind the words of some other author.

H2 on the other hand has decided to follow me around and make stupid comments every chance he gets. You’d think the Internet was his new toy or something.[/quote]

So, does that make you my boytoy? Sorry, don’t go that way, Vroomie.

Sidenote: What’s up with the H2? Does this mean you imagine me as a Hummer bearing down on you out on the highway at about 90 mph (wait, 150 km/hr)? I’d never do that, Vroomie!!

Now, please ask Damici a question finally!!!

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Now, please ask Damici a question finally!!!
[/quote]

I did. He sidestepped, said he’d answer later, then basically quoted himself instead.

Go chase him around…