Dock Workers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

You’re OK with the way that government structures certain aspects of life (ie, what is ‘legal’ or ‘not legal’ )[/quote]

I’m okay with “equality under the law”. As in everyone is equal under the law.

Whether or not a law is just is an entirely different topic, but for our purposes here, assume the laws are just.

Yes, because things aren’t equal under the law for starters. I’ll ignore the Marx in your idea for a second.

You’re trying to set a wage ceiling, which prevents people from earning what they are worth, by government decree. I can outline the 1000’s of way this will get worked around, all ending in disaster for America and wonder for countries not this stupid. It’s bad enough we have a wage floor, which prevents people (theoretically) from being paid LESS than they are worth, but your law will punish a minority of people into not being able to even make WHAT they are worth.

[quote]Hope that makes sense.

[/quote]

No, it doesn’t. Your entire idea is massively fucked up from jump street.

142

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
If you work, you should eat, would you agree?
[/quote]

If you work, you should get paid what your work is worth. Period. End of Story.

If that work isn’t providing enough money, find a better place to work or get some new skills.

I swear some people need to pick up a high school level economics book. Incentive is a powerful thing.

143

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

Correct, with no bearing on what is ‘fair’ or not. It is just another example of abuse of power. If you work, you should eat, would you agree?
[/quote]

Why should you be able to eat if you work?

144

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

If you work, you should get paid what your work is worth. Period. End of Story.

If that work isn’t providing enough money, find a better place to work or get some new skills.
[/quote]

What if gaining that new skill is cost prohibitive or otherwise excessively difficult?

Honestly, I find it preferable to see welfare changed so that education/skills and relocation programs are free/done with cheap loans instead of what we have today.

If done properly, those with genuine ambitions and drive have a legitimate chance to learn a skill and find a job.Those without ambitions can… just go die I guess.

The point should be to provide everyone with an opportunity, not just support them.

Dunno if this will be more expensive than what we have atm though, or if it’s even feasible.

145

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
How is a person that genuinely works hard for 15 dollars an hour and can’t provide for his family have the same freedoms of someone who works hard for 100 dollars an hour and has an abundance. [/quote]

How much you make has no bearing on how free one is or isn’t. Making $2 or $2,000,000 doesn’t change how the laws of a nation treat you.
[/quote]

That is patently false beans. Literally thousands of examples of this not being true.

146

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I would purposely underpay someone that openly thought and spoke that way, if I couldn’t just fire them. That way they would go and be someone else’s morale problem and not mine.

Everyone is replaceable, outside of the Steve Jobs of the world. [/quote]

So you would purposely fuck your employee - thank you for making my point for me.

[/quote]

No. I wouldn’t “fuck my employee.” A person that thinks, acts and speaks like you have about their employer is a cancer to moral, not an employee.

I fight to take care of employees everyday. Cancers can pound sand. [/quote]

Yes you would , you are a Capitalist. If it is in your financial interest , you would

147

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
See how that works?[/quote]

I’m pretty confident I do see how it works, like 5 or 6 days a week, for about a decade now.

And my stated perspective hasn’t changed. [/quote]

Why is a “morale problem” for someone to notice that THEIR labor/leadership is making the company a lot of money, but THEIR compensation isn’t reflecting that?

You made and automatic assumption that that’s a “morale problem” and that individual can go pound sand. In the last decade, have you NEVER come across a company that treated employees poorly? Or has it all been sugar plumbs and rainbows in a capitalist wonderland from your perspective so long as profits are good?

148

“…Making $2 or $2,000,000 doesn’t change how the laws of a nation treat you…”

Maybe I missed your point, Beans, and most likely am not taking it in the context in which you stated it…

But this is simply not true.

Mufasa

149

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
See how that works?[/quote]

I’m pretty confident I do see how it works, like 5 or 6 days a week, for about a decade now.

And my stated perspective hasn’t changed. [/quote]

Why is a “morale problem” for someone to notice that THEIR labor/leadership is making the company a lot of money, but THEIR compensation isn’t reflecting that?

You made and automatic assumption that that’s a “morale problem” and that individual can go pound sand. In the last decade, have you NEVER come across a company that treated employees poorly? Or has it all been sugar plumbs and rainbows in a capitalist wonderland from your perspective so long as profits are good?[/quote]

Just wanted to point out that the guy that started you off at the stupidly low rate and then lost you as an employee hurt his own company. You went somewhere else, he lost out and his competition won. What you describe is a boss that if he keeps doing what he did to you will be out of a job or lose his company. And there was obviously a better company willing to offer you what you were worth and should end up with all the good talent.

You really showed that the system worked.

150

AC:

You may have answered this already…but is your Trade Union more of an “outlier” or an “exception to the rule”; or are most Unions this responsible?

I think about Lawyers (whom, as I’ve come to understand) do good, honest work in things like contracts, business setups, etc…but tend to get lumped in with the Personal Liability and Malpractice Lawyers in terms of their reputation with the Public.

Mufasa

151

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
See how that works?[/quote]

I’m pretty confident I do see how it works, like 5 or 6 days a week, for about a decade now.

And my stated perspective hasn’t changed. [/quote]

Why is a “morale problem” for someone to notice that THEIR labor/leadership is making the company a lot of money, but THEIR compensation isn’t reflecting that?

You made and automatic assumption that that’s a “morale problem” and that individual can go pound sand. In the last decade, have you NEVER come across a company that treated employees poorly? Or has it all been sugar plumbs and rainbows in a capitalist wonderland from your perspective so long as profits are good?[/quote]

Just wanted to point out that the guy that started you off at the stupidly low rate and then lost you as an employee hurt his own company. You went somewhere else, he lost out and his competition won. What you describe is a boss that if he keeps doing what he did to you will be out of a job or lose his company. And there was obviously a better company willing to offer you what you were worth and should end up with all the good talent.

You really showed that the system worked.[/quote]

Except for the fact that I was “out” the money that I was worth while I was unnecessarily “proving myself”.

But the funny part is that he (and just about every single boss who’s every underpaid me) cry a fucking RIVER when I have quit. They offer to pay more, or to match it. The last company I quit, when I picked up my pink slip, the OWNER (who I had only met three times) offered to create a Preventive Maintenance department and let me run it… My question is this: if they are so butt hurt and eager to match the deal I’m leaving them for, WHY THE FUCK DIDN’T THEY GIVE IT TO ME IN THE FIRST PLACE? And before anyone says, “cuz you didn’t ask for it”, that’s bullshit. I ALWAYS ask for what I’m worth when I’m not getting it.

It obviously comes down to either one of two things: 1)they are too stupid to see what I’m worth and the value I provide. or 2)they HAVE the metrics in place and are well aware of the value I provide, but they are too greedy to offer me what I’m worth. I don’t think many companies that stay in business do so by being stupid. So I have to assume they are GREEDY and want to get every last penny out of me while paying me shit. That’s not Win:Win. So FUCK THEM.

And to address Beans’ accusation that I’m a piece of shit employee who has a morale problem, I’ve NEVER been fired from a company IN MY LIFE - one would think that if I were such a problem employee that might have happened a time or two… On the contrary, at every single job I’ve ever had, I’ve risen quickly.

152

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
AC:

You may have answered this already…but is your Trade Union more of an “outlier” or an “exception to the rule”; or are most Unions this responsible?

I think about Lawyers (whom, as I’ve come to understand) do good, honest work in things like contracts, business setups, etc…but tend to get lumped in with the Personal Liability and Malpractice Lawyers in terms of their reputation with the Public.

Mufasa
[/quote]

My feeling is that my union (IBEW Local 26) is on the “better” end of the Bell Curve - even among Trade Unions. There are some other trade unions even in our area that are pretty bad. For example, they don’t rotate the contractors during apprenticeship, they still have strike clauses (although they have not struck since I’ve been working in the last 20 years or so), their school is a joke and there is a bunch of stupid politics to navigate if you want a “good job”. So I will concede that my particular Union may very well be an outlier. Frankly, given my political beliefs, if it weren’t, I probably would have quit a long time ago if I felt it were as corrupt as some other unions that I hear about.

On the flip side, the elevator workers union (in my area) is widely considered to be FAR better than MY union. So it’s really hard to tell.

153

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
How is a person that genuinely works hard for 15 dollars an hour and can’t provide for his family have the same freedoms of someone who works hard for 100 dollars an hour and has an abundance. [/quote]

How much you make has no bearing on how free one is or isn’t. Making $2 or $2,000,000 doesn’t change how the laws of a nation treat you.
[/quote]

That is patently false beans. Literally thousands of examples of this not being true.[/quote]

List a few then.

154

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I would purposely underpay someone that openly thought and spoke that way, if I couldn’t just fire them. That way they would go and be someone else’s morale problem and not mine.

Everyone is replaceable, outside of the Steve Jobs of the world. [/quote]

So you would purposely fuck your employee - thank you for making my point for me.

[/quote]

No. I wouldn’t “fuck my employee.” A person that thinks, acts and speaks like you have about their employer is a cancer to moral, not an employee.

I fight to take care of employees everyday. Cancers can pound sand. [/quote]

Yes you would , you are a Capitalist. If it is in your financial interest , you would
[/quote]

Oh my, reading my mind?

How about I have 10 years of experience doing the opposite of your claim.

155

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
In the last decade, have you NEVER come across a company that treated employees poorly? [/quote]

I have not, in a single circumstance, seen a company treat their employees the way you say ALL companies FUCK their employees.

You’re missing the point. When someone is on the job and speaks like you have in this thread, creating and maintain the false narrative of “management v employee” it lowers morale. Low morale = less productivity. Less Productivity means less money for everyone.

Yes, if I ever heard an employee talking like you have in this thread, I’d invite them to go work for someone else.

156

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
“…Making $2 or $2,000,000 doesn’t change how the laws of a nation treat you…”

Maybe I missed your point, Beans, and most likely am not taking it in the context in which you stated it…

But this is simply not true.

Mufasa[/quote]

Okay, you list an example then.

I want you guys to show me laws that give preferential treatment based on wage scale.

157

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
So I have to assume they are GREEDY and want to get every last penny out of me while paying me shit. That’s not Win:Win. So FUCK THEM.[/quote]

You know what they say about assuming.

At what point does you wanting to get paid more become greed?

None of the rest of this paragraph means anything. I never said you were a piece of shit employee. I said, if you speak on the job, like you speak here, you are in fact, a cancer to morale.

It isn’t like you’d be the only one. In fact I’m sure there are plenty of people who are like this.

158

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
How is a person that genuinely works hard for 15 dollars an hour and can’t provide for his family have the same freedoms of someone who works hard for 100 dollars an hour and has an abundance. [/quote]

How much you make has no bearing on how free one is or isn’t. Making $2 or $2,000,000 doesn’t change how the laws of a nation treat you.
[/quote]

That is patently false beans. Literally thousands of examples of this not being true.[/quote]

List a few then.
[/quote]

Teen who’s father is wealthy kills 4 people while drinking and driving, no jail time

Du Pont heir, rapes his own daughter, no jail time

One year work release for high speed chase with police and crashing into house and two cars, also his 7th DUI

159

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

Who decides who makes $15 and who makes a $100?

Oh yes, the people who pay them.

Like my grandfather told me when I was young “figure it out boy, because the world needs ditch diggers too”.[/quote]

Correct, with no bearing on what is ‘fair’ or not. It is just another example of abuse of power. If you work, you should eat, would you agree?
[/quote]

Look, there is NO perfect solution because we live in an imperfect world so there will always be tragedies. However, generally speaking if you can’t eat on $15/hr, you fucking suck at money management. Don’t own internet, don’t own cable, don’t drive or lease a new car, don’t own the newest smartphone, don’t buy booze regularly. These are all things I have done in my own life and I lived on minimum wage.

I still do a lot of these things and I have more fun than most making my same salary because when I want something I now have the money to pay for it out of pocket. Trip to Africa? Check, take it out of checking account. New custom guitar and amp? Great, pay with debit. etc. etc.

A lot of people are ‘poor’ because they can’t manage their fucking money and want to live beyond their means.

As I said, there will always be tragedies because this is an imperfect world, but for the majority of people that’s what gives them trouble. They could win the lottery and be bankrupt in a few years because they can’t manage shit. Likewise, you give someone with the ability to manage money anything and they’ll turn it into more money/savings/whatever

160

People in the U.S. have the privilege to change jobs if they do not like the one they are at.

It’s really kinda simple.

You are paid what you are worth, if you don’t like your pay…INCREASE YOUR FUCKING WORTH.

Christ, all these people whining for “fair wages and livable wages” It’s not the fucking 1800’s pull your ass up by your boots and make your situation better.

It’s nobody’s responsibility to enable your lifestyle.