Dock Workers

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
As long as there is a little human nature trait called greed, each side (labor and management) will attempt to take as much of the pie as they can extract from the other side.

[/quote]

I’ve only been in practice for a decade, but I’ve never once seen management upset in anyway for paying people what they are worth.

It isn’t greed. It’s that people think they are worth more than they are. [/quote]

I’ve negotiated on behalf of the employer directly with people for a little over 30 years. While it is certainly true that I’ve never resented paying what someone was worth; it’s also true that I’ve never offered a dime more than necessary to get the agreement made. Of course it’s also true that occasionally common ground isn’t to be found…
[/quote]

Of course. Why would you offer more than what the person wants/deserves?

Making a deal in the first place means both parties are benefiting, unless one party is a real shit negotiator.

102

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Why can’t white-collar workers organize .[/quote]

Because we don’t need a collective to negotiate for good pay?

If I were in a Union, I’d make less than I do now. Individually I’ve done exponentially better at securing pay raises. And I don’t need the “protection” of a Union, because I’m not a lazy shit. [/quote]

I’m not a lazy piece of shit either. And if I were stuck getting paid “scale”, I’d probably work non-union. But companies understand value and believe me when I tell you they have no problem paying for people that make them money consistently. I make WAY above scale - more than the Superintendents at most other companies, in fact. Plus all the other bennies that are above and beyond the “agreement”. Just because you are a union member, doesn’t mean you are unable to negotiate.

I’m not in a union for “protection”, I’m in a union because they took a chance on an ex-felon without a high school diploma and taught him FOR FREE for five years and gave me a fucking chance at LIFE… And I ran with it. But when I was getting doors slammed in my face left and right, the union welcomed me in with open arms and helped to make me who I am today. Could I possibly make a few dollars an hour more working non-union? Probably. But I won’t ever forget where I came from. And I’d be known as a “brother-fucker” for the rest of my life for breaking my oath.[/quote]

We work in entirely different industries though. I’m much more comparable to what a teachers union would be.

I sit at a desk all day. If I fuck up, there isn’t going to be a systematic failure that might kill people. No. If I fuck up, I have to write a letter, lol.

I was speaking about a Union in my setting there.

103

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
As long as there is a little human nature trait called greed, each side (labor and management) will attempt to take as much of the pie as they can extract from the other side.

[/quote]

I’ve only been in practice for a decade, but I’ve never once seen management upset in anyway for paying people what they are worth.

It isn’t greed. It’s that people think they are worth more than they are. [/quote]

I’ve negotiated on behalf of the employer directly with people for a little over 30 years. While it is certainly true that I’ve never resented paying what someone was worth; it’s also true that I’ve never offered a dime more than necessary to get the agreement made. Of course it’s also true that occasionally common ground isn’t to be found…
[/quote]

Of course. Why would you offer more than what the person wants/deserves?

Making a deal in the first place means both parties are benefiting, unless one party is a real shit negotiator.
[/quote]

But what IF the “worker” is a real “shit negotiator”? If he can provide tons of value at XYZ trade, but isn’t a people person, or get’s nervous around management, or isn’t in the position to say no? He’s gonna get fucked every time and twice on Sunday.

When I went down to the Gulf a few years ago, I started off making EIGHTEEN dollars an hour. That’s what I was offered. So I took it because I was desperate. Six months later I was making almost double that after I leveraged my skill set. But I could see the guy’s eyes mocking me as he offered me 18, cuz he knew I was going to take it, and he KNEW he was fucking me (because I was worth far more than that). It was humiliating, but I put my pride on the shelf and did what I had to do. That doesn’t happen with a Union company. You’re an Inside Wireman? Here’s the base rate that you make - you only have to negotiate your perks.

Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. Union’s protect workers from getting fucked. It’s that simple.

104

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

But what IF the “worker” is a real “shit negotiator”?[/quote]

Then he’ll likely end up working for someone else, because I bet he/she still knows what he/she is worth.

I know plenty of people like this that are still fairly compensated.

You can always say no.

Not true, not at all. This isn’t a Hollywood movie nor an MSNBC special. It’s the real world. Its not going down like that remotely close to 100% of the time.

A 100% raise in 6 months is now “fucking” someone?

wow. I though the fact I doubled my salary in under 6 years was pretty damn good. I didn’t realize I was actually “getting fucked”.

You stay convinced of this. It isn’t remotely close to true, but just stay held into the “employee v management” mindset.

105

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. Union’s protect workers from getting fucked. It’s that simple.[/quote]

In my opinion, this is an often exaggerated sentiment. Management doesn’t exist, business doesn’t’ exist, without skilled labor. You don’t just “fuck” skilled laborers.

106

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. Union’s protect workers from getting fucked. It’s that simple.[/quote]

In my opinion, this is an often exaggerated sentiment. [/quote]

It’s an utterly bullshit sentiment held by an amazing number of people.

I would purposely underpay someone that openly thought and spoke that way, if I couldn’t just fire them. That way they would go and be someone else’s morale problem and not mine.

Everyone is replaceable, outside of the Steve Jobs of the world.

107

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. Union’s protect workers from getting fucked. It’s that simple.[/quote]

In my opinion, this is an often exaggerated sentiment. [/quote]

It’s an utterly bullshit sentiment held by an amazing number of people.

I would purposely underpay someone that openly thought and spoke that way, if I couldn’t just fire them. That way they would go and be someone else’s morale problem and not mine.

Everyone is replaceable, outside of the Steve Jobs of the world. [/quote]

Well, even Jobs is (was) replaceable. I’m actually reading a book about leadership transition, it’s pretty interesting (if you’re into that sort of thing).

108

Working in HR for years, it’s utterly amazing how many people think they are worth more than they are.

I have had people apply for jobs paying 50K in our area and open at 75K.

They think it’s negotiating, but there is ALWAYS another candidate.

109

Why aren’t you two accountants going assholes and elbows with this being the end of March, instead of PWIing? LOL

I know, I know about 4/13 and the line is long and the clients are wondering why their return is extended

110

[quote]treco wrote:
Why aren’t you two accountants going assholes and elbows with this being the end of Feb, instead of PWIing? LOL

I know, I know about 4/13 and the line is long and the clients are wondering why their return is extended[/quote]

I’ve no idea how Beans’ is doing it. I’m not in tax and this is actually slow season for me. My wife is a tax accountant / personal financial planner and she’s walking in the door around 11 each night 6 days a week (she works another full day on Sunday from home).

111

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Why aren’t you two accountants going assholes and elbows with this being the end of Feb, instead of PWIing? LOL

I know, I know about 4/13 and the line is long and the clients are wondering why their return is extended[/quote]

I’ve no idea how Beans’ is doing it. I’m not in tax and this is actually slow season for me. My wife is a tax accountant / personal financial planner and she’s walking in the door around 11 each night 6 days a week (she works another full day on Sunday from home). [/quote]

I know how to delegate.

I’m working between posts and have reviewed like 4 things today, and wrote like 13 emails lol. I’ve solved problems, filed a return, and ate lunch.

The more you move up, the less “omfg I neeeeeeddddd to be working 24/7” this job gets. If you think, plan and manage people, you just have the hours, not the insane work load.

112

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Why aren’t you two accountants going assholes and elbows with this being the end of Feb, instead of PWIing? LOL

I know, I know about 4/13 and the line is long and the clients are wondering why their return is extended[/quote]

I’ve no idea how Beans’ is doing it. I’m not in tax and this is actually slow season for me. My wife is a tax accountant / personal financial planner and she’s walking in the door around 11 each night 6 days a week (she works another full day on Sunday from home). [/quote]

I know how to delegate.

I’m working between posts and have reviewed like 4 things today, and wrote like 13 emails lol. I’ve solved problems, filed a return, and ate lunch.

The more you move up, the less “omfg I neeeeeeddddd to be working 24/7” this job gets. If you think, plan and manage people, you just have the hours, not the insane work load. [/quote]

Ya, the wife is still a senior and her department (within tax) is pretty small.

113

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. Union’s protect workers from getting fucked. It’s that simple.[/quote]

Having been on both sides of the table…it’s not about ‘fucking’ anyone. It’s about an agreement that works for both parties…just business AC. In your example; once you demonstrated your value, your compensation was adjusted accordingly.

114

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
In your example; once you demonstrated your value, your compensation was adjusted accordingly.[/quote]

Yeah, I’m still baffled how a 100% raise in 6 months is an example of getting “fucked”.

115

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]treco wrote:
Why aren’t you two accountants going assholes and elbows with this being the end of Feb, instead of PWIing? LOL

I know, I know about 4/13 and the line is long and the clients are wondering why their return is extended[/quote]

I’ve no idea how Beans’ is doing it. I’m not in tax and this is actually slow season for me. My wife is a tax accountant / personal financial planner and she’s walking in the door around 11 each night 6 days a week (she works another full day on Sunday from home). [/quote]

I know how to delegate.

I’m working between posts and have reviewed like 4 things today, and wrote like 13 emails lol. I’ve solved problems, filed a return, and ate lunch.

The more you move up, the less “omfg I neeeeeeddddd to be working 24/7” this job gets. If you think, plan and manage people, you just have the hours, not the insane work load. [/quote]

Ya, the wife is still a senior and her department (within tax) is pretty small. [/quote]

Being a senior sucks, lol.

116

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
once you demonstrated your value[/quote]

Demonstration of value is an important first step in many endeavors:

117

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
I don’t really get why someone should be able to collect interest on money that doesn’t actually exist. Just seems wrong.[/quote]

Because you’re completely ignoring the remaining portions of the station and focused on one small notch in the process. [/quote]

Ok, lets hear the rest.[/quote]

I sort of explained it in the post above this one.

Person A makes a deposit, earns 2% interest for doing nothing.
Bank leverages that deposit and lends at 10 times to Person B at 6%.
Person B takes that loan and invests in his business and it increases his gross margin to 28% from 18%.
Person C loves what Person B makes and buys a ton of it.
Person C works for Person D, who makes machines that Person B bought it increase his productivity.
Person D borrows from the Bank at 6% to make those machines that he sells to person B at 12% margin.

So:
1)Bank makes money because they have default risk, by charging interest.
2)Person A makes money by doing nothing.
3)Person B makes money because he leveraged his loan into returns that outpace his interest rate paid to the bank. Effectively speeding up his growth timeline.
4)Person C is happy in that Person B makes things he likes and buys them, and also that he has a job because:
5)Person D makes money by leveraging his loan into new machines to sell Person B.

This isn’t even getting into the use of leverage in financial industry…

You’re worried about #1 and how it relates to the money supply, and ignoring the effect lending has on velocity of money, which is the game changer.

[/quote]

I just spent the night at university (polyphasic sleep anyone?), and I’m stuck in first gear, so I’m going to have to digest this later, but thanks for the response.

118

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Companies will fuck you EVERY CHANCE THEY GET. Union’s protect workers from getting fucked. It’s that simple.[/quote]

In my opinion, this is an often exaggerated sentiment. [/quote]

It’s an utterly bullshit sentiment held by an amazing number of people.

I would purposely underpay someone that openly thought and spoke that way, if I couldn’t just fire them. That way they would go and be someone else’s morale problem and not mine.

Everyone is replaceable, outside of the Steve Jobs of the world. [/quote]

I’ve worked in HVAC for a few years, and I’ve definitely seen this.
My one buddy who’s a journeyman, send him anywhere, he can deal with it, he was on a piecework deal that was real sweet for him, he liked to work hard and he was rewarded in turn. Eventually the bosses see how much he’s making and re-adjust the pay scale, they kept doing this repeatedly, slowly whittling away at what he was earning himself, never mind what he was making them. Eventually he left, but now they’re out a great worker because they got greedy.

119

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:
he liked to work hard and he was rewarded in turn. Eventually the bosses see how much he’s making and re-adjust the pay scale, they kept doing this repeatedly, slowly whittling away at what he was earning himself, never mind what he was making them. [/quote]

This sounds strange, as in odd. Was he not hourly?

120

There seems to be a disconnect between what white collar workers and blue collar workers experience as far as employee / management relations go.