Do You Support the Troops?

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
PGJ wrote:
TrainerinDC wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Why? Because they might not be slanted like FoxNews?

Try the BBC. Its a lot better quality.

CNN is slanted. FoxNews is objective. You guys have been slanted one way in news for so long that objective seems slanted.

AMEN, Brother!

Ever try to watch the BBC? What a bunch of crap.

I believe the proper term in “bollocks”.

CNN, FoxNews, BBC are all slanted.

I agree that the major news sources are somewhat “influenced”. I do find that Fox seems to present a more positive view of things and are generally more supportive of the government, but even they get caught up in the sensationalism at times. The major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC) are obsessed with criticizing President Bush. CNN and BBC are just rediculous. I don’t know anyone in the military that watches CNN anymore (Ted Turner-Fonda screwed that up). They shot their wad in 92 with Desert Storm. Now the troops watch Fox.

I get my “war news” from the guys who are actually there right now and those who have already been. Plus I read a lot of books written by the fighters themselves (not some anti-government liberal “war reporter”) Many of the deployed units post their own newspapers on the internet. Check it out if you are interested in “alternate” news sources.

[/quote]

You would be well served to read books by “liberal war reporters” as well. Not Michael Moore tripe, but books by people who have been on the ground and seen the conflict firsthand, and, while having their own biases, are free of those of the uniformed military. The Assassin’s Gate and Cobra II are probably the two best.

And I hope you don’t think Fox News is in any way objective. They’re probably worse than CNN, ABC, and the rest, just in the opposite direction. Read a couple papers or magazines, I feel like TV news is basically geared toward retards.

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
PGJ wrote:
TrainerinDC wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Why? Because they might not be slanted like FoxNews?

Try the BBC. Its a lot better quality.

CNN is slanted. FoxNews is objective. You guys have been slanted one way in news for so long that objective seems slanted.

AMEN, Brother!

Ever try to watch the BBC? What a bunch of crap.

I believe the proper term in “bollocks”.

CNN, FoxNews, BBC are all slanted.

I agree that the major news sources are somewhat “influenced”. I do find that Fox seems to present a more positive view of things and are generally more supportive of the government, but even they get caught up in the sensationalism at times. The major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC) are obsessed with criticizing President Bush. CNN and BBC are just rediculous. I don’t know anyone in the military that watches CNN anymore (Ted Turner-Fonda screwed that up). They shot their wad in 92 with Desert Storm. Now the troops watch Fox.

I get my “war news” from the guys who are actually there right now and those who have already been. Plus I read a lot of books written by the fighters themselves (not some anti-government liberal “war reporter”) Many of the deployed units post their own newspapers on the internet. Check it out if you are interested in “alternate” news sources.

You would be well served to read books by “liberal war reporters” as well. Not Michael Moore tripe, but books by people who have been on the ground and seen the conflict firsthand, and, while having their own biases, are free of those of the uniformed military. The Assassin’s Gate and Cobra II are probably the two best.

And I hope you don’t think Fox News is in any way objective. They’re probably worse than CNN, ABC, and the rest, just in the opposite direction. Read a couple papers or magazines, I feel like TV news is basically geared toward retards.[/quote]

You don’t get it. I like to get my gouge from the troops on the ground, not some liberal, socialist, anti-violence peace-activist, journalist who is looking for scandal. You said it yourself:

“You would be well served to read books by “liberal war reporters” as well…while having their own biases, are free of those of the uniformed military.”

I got so sick of inbedded reporters not understanding the nature of armed conflict reporting the absolute tradgedy of every single casualty (it’s a freakin’ war, man) and making each one appear to be a failure on the military’s part. Or reporting that the troops have been halted by the enemy, when actually they’re just waiting for the supply chain to catch up. There are plenty of books written by the warriors. I don’t need some hypersensitive journalists opinions.

[quote]PGJ wrote:

You don’t get it. I like to get my gouge from the troops on the ground, not some liberal, socialist, anti-violence peace-activist, journalist who is looking for scandal. You said it yourself:

“You would be well served to read books by “liberal war reporters” as well…while having their own biases, are free of those of the uniformed military.”

I got so sick of inbedded reporters not understanding the nature of armed conflict reporting the absolute tradgedy of every single casualty (it’s a freakin’ war, man) and making each one appear to be a failure on the military’s part. Or reporting that the troops have been halted by the enemy, when actually they’re just waiting for the supply chain to catch up. There are plenty of books written by the warriors. I don’t need some hypersensitive journalists opinions.

[/quote]

I think he gets it.

You like to get your “information” from sources that tell you what you allready believe.

He suggests that either

A) everyone seeing things differently is a “liberal” moron or

B) they might have a point you don?t see yet.

But, hey, stay in the comfort zone. If you introduce your mind to new stresses it might grow and soon equal your physical development.

That is not a good thing, and chicks don?t dig it.

[quote]orion wrote:
PGJ wrote:

You don’t get it. I like to get my gouge from the troops on the ground, not some liberal, socialist, anti-violence peace-activist, journalist who is looking for scandal. You said it yourself:

“You would be well served to read books by “liberal war reporters” as well…while having their own biases, are free of those of the uniformed military.”

I got so sick of inbedded reporters not understanding the nature of armed conflict reporting the absolute tradgedy of every single casualty (it’s a freakin’ war, man) and making each one appear to be a failure on the military’s part. Or reporting that the troops have been halted by the enemy, when actually they’re just waiting for the supply chain to catch up. There are plenty of books written by the warriors. I don’t need some hypersensitive journalists opinions.

I think he gets it.

You like to get your “information” from sources that tell you what you allready believe.

He suggests that either

A) everyone seeing things differently is a “liberal” moron or

B) they might have a point you don?t see yet.

But, hey, stay in the comfort zone. If you introduce your mind to new stresses it might grow and soon equal your physical development.

That is not a good thing, and chicks don?t dig it.[/quote]

That’s right. The troops are just mindless animals who don’t understand. Their word means nothing. The journalists are the ones with the big picture and just report the facts. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
It was the best and worst time of my life and I am glad to not be fighting in a lame conflict (it’s not a real war) whose number one mission is to keep oil profits up. Yep, I said it!

Return in one peice and with peace.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if America wanted the oil, we would have taken it. Point blank.
[/quote]
What we want is irrelevant. It is the Oil Companies who want the profits kept up–so they keep production low. So, yes, I agree. If they (the current administration) want to take the oil they could. But it’s in their best interest not to becasue they control the oil. Which was my point.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
A young marine just back from Iraq came and spoke at our high school. I will paraphrase part of what he said:

“I now know the difference between good and evil. I also now know that THERE ARE NO GREYS. There is only right and wrong…and what we are doing is right.”

HH
[/quote]
Spoken like a true brainwashed devildog. His DIs would be proud!

No Greys!? That is the problem with the current Administration. They only see grey when they get caught with their pants down.

[quote]PGJ wrote:

That’s right. The troops are just mindless animals who don’t understand. Their word means nothing. The journalists are the ones with the big picture and just report the facts. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.

[/quote]

As I wrote, stay deep, deep, deep in the comfort zone.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and singing the Lalalalala-song usually works best.

Post a few of the books written by the men on the ground, you have my word I will read at least 3 of them.

But, then again, I am not afraid to be confronted with new ideas.

:-).

[quote]PGJ wrote:

I got so sick of inbedded reporters not understanding the nature of armed conflict reporting the absolute tradgedy of every single casualty (it’s a freakin’ war, man) and making each one appear to be a failure on the military’s part. Or reporting that the troops have been halted by the enemy, when actually they’re just waiting for the supply chain to catch up. There are plenty of books written by the warriors. I don’t need some hypersensitive journalists opinions.

[/quote]

Exactly.

Remember the foolish outcry when the Marine shot the wounded terrorist?

Rather than celebrate his actions the media tried to crucify him for not letting the guy surrender and for not giving him first aid.

MEMORIAL DAY THOUGHT:

On this Memorial Day, let us take the time to pray for our men and women in our armed forces who are protecting us and our way of life.

Thank you and God bless you!

[quote]PGJ wrote:
orion wrote:
PGJ wrote:
You don’t get it. I like to get my gouge from the troops on the ground, not some liberal, socialist, anti-violence peace-activist, journalist who is looking for scandal. You said it yourself:

“You would be well served to read books by “liberal war reporters” as well…while having their own biases, are free of those of the uniformed military.”

I got so sick of inbedded reporters not understanding the nature of armed conflict reporting the absolute tradgedy of every single casualty (it’s a freakin’ war, man) and making each one appear to be a failure on the military’s part. Or reporting that the troops have been halted by the enemy, when actually they’re just waiting for the supply chain to catch up. There are plenty of books written by the warriors. I don’t need some hypersensitive journalists opinions.

I think he gets it.

You like to get your “information” from sources that tell you what you allready believe.

He suggests that either

A) everyone seeing things differently is a “liberal” moron or

B) they might have a point you don?t see yet.

But, hey, stay in the comfort zone. If you introduce your mind to new stresses it might grow and soon equal your physical development.

That is not a good thing, and chicks don?t dig it.

That’s right. The troops are just mindless animals who don’t understand. Their word means nothing. The journalists are the ones with the big picture and just report the facts. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up.
[/quote]

Yeah, that’s exactly what I said, the troops are “mindless animals.” Nice strawman. I’m saying that if you only get your news from a military with obvious biases, and one that in many ways hasn’t even learned from Vietnam (not true of the Marines, but definitely of the Army), you’re not getting much of a picture. If I had to choose, maybe I’d rather get my Iraq news from the soldiers than journalists, but you DON’T have to choose.

I have a buddy that got back from serving in Afghanistan with the 10th Mountain Division not too long ago, and while he had a lot to say, if I was relying solely on what he said I’d have a perception of that war that runs counter to what the vast majority of others (not just journalists) are saying.

But keep your mind closed to anything that might mess with your reality, good luck with that.

With the permission of Mr.Chen, who posted this on another thread first and as a PGJ special:

Fred Reed had an article up on just this subject recently.

On Recent Wars

Things Not Figured Out

May 17, 2006

People ask how we got into our splendid mess in Iraq and why we can?t get out. The question is a subset of a larger question: Why, since WWII, have so many first-world armies gotten into drawn-out guerrilla wars in bush-world countries, and lost? Examples abound: France in Vietnam, America in Vietnam, France in Algeria, Russia in Afghanistan, Israel in Lebanon, etc. Why don?t they learn?

The answer I think is that militaries are influenced by a kind of man?call him the Warrior?who by nature is unsuited for modern wars. He doesn?t understand them, can?t adapt to them.

The Warrior is emotionally suited to pitched, Pattonesque battles of moral clarity and simple intent. I don?t mean that he is stupid. Among fighter pilots and in the Special Forces for example it is not uncommon to find men with IQs of 145. Yet emotionally the Warrior has the uncomplicated instincts of a pit bull. Intensely loyal to friends and intensely hostile to the enemy, he doesn?t want any confusion as to which is which. His tolerance for ambiguity is very low. He wants to close with the enemy and destroy him.

This works in wars like WWII. (Note that the American military is an advanced version of the military that beat Germany and Japan.) It does not work when winning requires the support of the population. The Warrior, unable to see things through the eyes of the enemy, or of the local population, whom he quickly comes to hate, wants to blow hell out of things. He detests all that therapeutic crap, that touchy-feely leftist stuff about respect the population, especially the women. Having the empathy of an engine block, he regards mention of mutilated children as intensely annoying at best, and communist propaganda at worst.

On the net these men sometimes speak approvingly to each other of the massacre at My Lai. Hey, they were all Cong. If they weren?t, they knew who the Cong were and didn?t tell us. Calley did the right thing, taught them a lesson. There is an admiration of Calley for having avoided bureaucratic rules of engagement probably dreamed up by civilians. War is war. You kill people. Deal with it.

If you point out that collateral damage (dead children, for example) makes the survivors into murderously angry Viet Cong, the Warrior thinks that you are a lefty tree-hugger.

Today, the battlefield as understood by the enemy, but seldom by the Warrior, extends far beyond the physical battlefield, and the chief targets are political. In this kind of war, if America can get the local population to support it, the insurgents are out of business; if the insurgents can get the American public to stop supporting the war, the American military is out of business. This is what counts. It is what works. The Warrior, all oooh-rah and jump wings, doesn?t get it. Vo Nguyen Giap got it. Ho Chi Minh got it.

Thus the furious, embittered insistence of Warriors that “We won Tet of ?68. We slaughtered them! We won, dammit! Militarily, we absolutely won!” Swell, but politically they lost. It was a catastrophe on the order of Kursk or Dien Bien Phu. But they can?t figure it out.

The warrior doesn?t understand what “victory” means because he thinks in terms of firefights, courage, weaponry, and valor. His approach is emotional, not rational. Though not stupid, he is regularly out-thought. Why?

It?s not mysterious. An intelligent enemy knows that America cannot be beaten at industrial war. So he thinks, “What then are America?s weaknesses?” The first and crucial one is that the American government enters into distant wars in which the public has no stake. Do you want your son to die for?get this?democracy in Iraq? You diapered him, got him through school-yard fist fights, his first prom, graduation from boot camp, and he comes home in a box?for democracy in Iraq?

The thing to do, then (continues thinking the intelligent enemy) is to make the Americans grow sick of the war. How? Not by winning battles, which is difficult against the Americans. You win otherwise. First, don?t give them point targets, since these are easily destroyed by big guns and advanced technology. Second, keep the level of combat high enough to maintain the war in the forefront of American consciousness, and to keep the monetary expense high. (Inflation and gasoline prices are weapons as much as rifles, another idea that the Warrior just doesn?t get. Bin Laden does.) Third, keep the body bags flowing. Sooner or later the Americans will weary of losing their sons for something that doesn?t really interest them.

However, the Warrior does not grant the public the right to grow weary. For him, America exists to support the military, not the other way around. Are two hundred dead a week coming back from Asia? The Warrior believes that small-town America (which is where the coffins usually go) should grit its teeth, bear down, and make the sacrifice for the country. Sacrifice for what? It doesn?t matter. We?re at war, dammit. Rally ?round. What are you, a commy?

To the Warrior, to doubt the war is treason, aiding and supporting, liberalism, cowardice, back-stabbing, and so on. He uses these phrases unrelentingly. We must fight, and fight, and fight, and never yield, and sacrifice and spend. We must never ask why, or whether, or what for, or do we want to.

The public of course doesn?t see it that way. In 1964 I graduated from a rural high school in Virginia with a senior class of, I think, sixty. Doug took a 12.7 through the head, Sonny spent time at Walter Reed with neck wounds, Studley I hear is a paraplegic, another kid got mostly blinded for life, and several, whom I won?t name, tough country kids as I knew them, came back as apparently irredeemable drunks. (These were kids I knew, not all in my class.) It was a lot of dead and crippled for a small place. For what?

Cowardice? I was on campus in 1966 on a small, very Republican, very patriotic, very conservative, very Southern campus. The students, and their girlfriends, were all violently against the war. So, I gather, were their parents. Why? Were they the traitors of the Warrior?s imagination? No. They didn?t want to die for something that they didn?t care about.

This eludes the Warrior. Always, he blames The Press for the waning of martial enthusiasm, for his misunderstanding of the kind of war we are fighting. Did the press make Studley a paraplegic? Or kill the guy with all the tubes who died in the stretcher above me on the Medevac 141 back from Danang? Did Walter Cronkite make my buddy Cagle blind when the rifle grenade exploded on the end of his fourteen? Do the Warriors think that people don?t notice when their kids come back forever in wheelchairs?

They don?t get it.

Fred Reed is trying to address the way the United States military fights a 4th Generation war. He doesn’t do it very well. Research 4th Generation warfare on Wikepedia, read the links and articles. Fred Reed is not a credible source for commentary on war fighting.
Fred Reed also lives in Mexico. Love it or leave it Fred.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
Fred Reed is trying to address the way the United States military fights a 4th Generation war. He doesn’t do it very well. Research 4th Generation warfare on Wikepedia, read the links and articles. Fred Reed is not a credible source for commentary on war fighting.
Fred Reed also lives in Mexico. Love it or leave it Fred. [/quote]

Ah, just admitt that this article is a must read for PGJ, whatever you think of Fred Reed.

Plus, he could be a paranoid transvestite and still be the head of the FB…, um, still have a point.

The point I was trying to make, probably very poorly since I let my personal feelings about Fred come through, is that there are much better sources on 4GW than that idiot. (oops, I did it again)
Since PGJ and I run in the same circles (Marine Corps Officers) he has already read the information I have and most likely knows it better than I do.
If you want to find out what Fred is writing about, look up 4GW and read about it. Much smarter guys have written almost the same thing. Some of them are even Marine Corps Officers like us. The dumb warriors that Fred mentions in his article are the ones actively criticizing the Pentagon’s conduct of the war and proposing the force structure and training changes needed to make the US more adept at conducting 4GW.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
The point I was trying to make, probably very poorly since I let my personal feelings about Fred come through, is that there are much better sources on 4GW than that idiot. (oops, I did it again)
Since PGJ and I run in the same circles (Marine Corps Officers) he has already read the information I have and most likely knows it better than I do.
If you want to find out what Fred is writing about, look up 4GW and read about it. Much smarter guys have written almost the same thing. Some of them are even Marine Corps Officers like us. The dumb warriors that Fred mentions in his article are the ones actively criticizing the Pentagon’s conduct of the war and proposing the force structure and training changes needed to make the US more adept at conducting 4GW.[/quote]

I will research that, seems to be an interesting topic.

I just thought he had a point, or maybe I am reading that into his article that it takes a certain mindset to join the military and to seek out the emotional clarity of a combat situation.

It does not get more us vs them than that. A certain kind of people might be drawn to that and there is nothing wrong with that.

However if a manichaeic world view is your reality of choice it stands in the way of “getting” how emotionally and politically complex such situations really are.

I think PGJ is such a person, so I wanted to give him a quick glimpse how he looks like from the outside.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
The point I was trying to make, probably very poorly since I let my personal feelings about Fred come through, is that there are much better sources on 4GW than that idiot. (oops, I did it again)
Since PGJ and I run in the same circles (Marine Corps Officers) he has already read the information I have and most likely knows it better than I do.
If you want to find out what Fred is writing about, look up 4GW and read about it. Much smarter guys have written almost the same thing. Some of them are even Marine Corps Officers like us. The dumb warriors that Fred mentions in his article are the ones actively criticizing the Pentagon’s conduct of the war and proposing the force structure and training changes needed to make the US more adept at conducting 4GW.[/quote]

Depends which service you mean. The Army certainly hasn’t embraced a coherent and successful counter-insurgency doctrine, in spite of Vietnam. And Bill Lind has even written that in his opinion the Marine Corps is in an intellectual valley right now.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
It has become very fasionable to say “I support the troops”. This is great, and being on active duty I really appreciate the support.

However, there are a lot of folks out there who say they support us, but then hate the President and hate the mission. You can’t have it both ways. We are all volunteers. We know what we are getting in to. Not a single person has joind the military in the last 5 years without knowing they would probably end up in Iraq or Afghanistan.

So, how can someone support the troops AND at the same time hate the mission and our Commander? That’s like saying I’m against abortion but support abortion doctors. Thoughts?

[/quote]

I’m a serviceman, and I completely disagree with you. Those are my thoughts.

Todd