Do You Own Your Own Life?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…a peaceful society without some sort of government regulation is a contradiction in terms. People + no regulatory body does not equal peace…

How so?

Peace is in ideas and human action alone not some abstract embodiment of the political order.

Government has been the biggest contradiction to peace EVER so how does a blatantly chaotic institution promote peace?

…fair enough, but can you give me an example of one society that enjoyed lasting peace?

Lasting peace? Is that like lasting wealth or lasting youth?

Peace has existed before and it only lasts while people keep vigilant and hold true to the values that allow it to exist.

…we enjoy 65 years of peace in Europe, except for the Balkan conflict. That’s pretty good, isn’t it? Why change something that obviously sustains peace?

Except if you happen to be from the Balkans. This is exactly the point I was making about government. It was not individual citizens that wanted war. It was carried out by proxy of the government and required all the citizens to suffer for its cause.

I cannot think of one instance in history where private enterprise carried an entire country and its neighbors into war. War is bad for business unless you happen to be in the bomb building business…[/quote]

…you’re too eager to take the shortcut on that conflict Lift. What about Tito’s reign that kept Yugoslavia together until his death?

…you do realise that the two WW’s were bankrolled by privately owned institutions, e.i. banks? War is far from bad for business, WW2 pulled the US out of the depression and catapulled it into the 20th century…

122

[quote]ephrem wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
…a peaceful society without some sort of government regulation is a contradiction in terms. People + no regulatory body does not equal peace…

How so?

Peace is in ideas and human action alone not some abstract embodiment of the political order.

Government has been the biggest contradiction to peace EVER so how does a blatantly chaotic institution promote peace?

…fair enough, but can you give me an example of one society that enjoyed lasting peace?

Lasting peace? Is that like lasting wealth or lasting youth?

Peace has existed before and it only lasts while people keep vigilant and hold true to the values that allow it to exist.

…we enjoy 65 years of peace in Europe, except for the Balkan conflict. That’s pretty good, isn’t it? Why change something that obviously sustains peace?

Except if you happen to be from the Balkans. This is exactly the point I was making about government. It was not individual citizens that wanted war. It was carried out by proxy of the government and required all the citizens to suffer for its cause.

I cannot think of one instance in history where private enterprise carried an entire country and its neighbors into war. War is bad for business unless you happen to be in the bomb building business…

…you’re too eager to take the shortcut on that conflict Lift. What about Tito’s reign that kept Yugoslavia together until his death?

…you do realise that the two WW’s were bankrolled by privately owned institutions, e.i. banks? War is far from bad for business, WW2 pulled the US out of the depression and catapulled it into the 20th century…[/quote]

No, that is the propaganda they want you to believe. The US gov’t could have ended the depression early in the 30s by simply doing nothing. Doing nothing would have also prevented the depression.

Inflation has paid for every war ever fought except the American Revolution otherwise the US would never have been able to afford them – you cannot tax citizens enough to pay for war.

The depression was ended because many of the New Deal policies were curtailed along with reducing the debt burden on the economy.

A return to capitalism is what pushed the US into the 20th Century.

Sadly, it is socialism that will push it back into the 20th Century.

123

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Dustin wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Dustin wrote: True capitalism doesn’t exploit people.

…can we talk about this for a bit? I for one don’t believe that ‘true capatalism’ won’t exploit people, but thenagain, i don’t know what that is, tbh. I say that people will exploit people regardless of the system, even more so if large profit is the bounty…

Lifticus might be able to articulate this a bit more clearly than me, but true capitalism is capitalism without state planning or intervention. No bailouts, no New Deals, no monopoly of currency, no tax manipulation, etc.

If true capitalism exists, the business entity that attempts to exploit others simply won’t last. This is the case due to competition within the market, but also because the state (men with guns) isn’t there to enforce the will of the business entity.

…is it fair to say that the first 150 years of the industial revolution resembles true capitalism?

[/quote]

Not really, considering government regulations (see tariffs).

124

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Except if you happen to be from the Balkans. This is exactly the point I was making about government. It was not individual citizens that wanted war. It was carried out by proxy of the government and required all the citizens to suffer for its cause.

I cannot think of one instance in history where private enterprise carried an entire country and its neighbors into war. War is bad for business unless you happen to be in the bomb building business…

…you’re too eager to take the shortcut on that conflict Lift. What about Tito’s reign that kept Yugoslavia together until his death?

…you do realise that the two WW’s were bankrolled by privately owned institutions, e.i. banks? War is far from bad for business, WW2 pulled the US out of the depression and catapulled it into the 20th century…

No, that is the propaganda they want you to believe. The US gov’t could have ended the depression early in the 30s by simply doing nothing. Doing nothing would have also prevented the depression.

Inflation has paid for every war ever fought except the American Revolution otherwise the US would never have been able to afford them – you cannot tax citizens enough to pay for war.

The depression was ended because many of the New Deal policies were curtailed along with reducing the debt burden on the economy.

A return to capitalism is what pushed the US into the 20th Century.

Sadly, it is socialism that will push it back into the 20th Century.[/quote]

…i will take your word on that. Now, what about the fact that Tito kept Yugoslavia together only for it to fall apart in bloodshed after his death?

…okay, so before the Great Depression the USA was capatalist and after WW2 the USA returned to capatalism and flourished as a result. That’s what you’re saying, right?

125

[quote]Dustin wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…is it fair to say that the first 150 years of the industial revolution resembles true capitalism?

Not really, considering government regulations (see tariffs).[/quote]

…then tell me: how on Earth can the US markets ever by moved outside of the governments sphere of influence?

126

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Dustin wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…is it fair to say that the first 150 years of the industial revolution resembles true capitalism?

Not really, considering government regulations (see tariffs).

…then tell me: how on Earth can the US markets ever by moved outside of the governments sphere of influence?

[/quote]

Doubtful it will ever happen as long as the government is functioning. And it would be in the best interest of the state to maintain its control over the economy.

127

[quote]Dustin wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…then tell me: how on Earth can the US markets ever by moved outside of the governments sphere of influence?

Doubtful it will ever happen as long as the government is functioning. And it would be in the best interest of the state to maintain its control over the economy. [/quote]

…then true capitalism is a pipedream, isn’t it? If the US government ceases to function it will likely be because of the collaps of civilisation, and there’s little profit in that…

128

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Dustin wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…then tell me: how on Earth can the US markets ever by moved outside of the governments sphere of influence?

Doubtful it will ever happen as long as the government is functioning. And it would be in the best interest of the state to maintain its control over the economy.

…then true capitalism is a pipedream, isn’t it? If the US government ceases to function it will likely be because of the collaps of civilisation, and there’s little profit in that…
[/quote]

Not necessarily. If civilization were to collapse then capitalism will be what rebuilds it not government. In fact, it is highly probable that the collapse of civilization will come as a result of government interference in the markets.

It is better to promote the ideas of capitalism and self ownership in the meantime while we are waiting for government to destroy civilization. This way we are ready with a real peaceful solution if and when it does happen.

129

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Dustin wrote:
ephrem wrote:

…then tell me: how on Earth can the US markets ever by moved outside of the governments sphere of influence?

Doubtful it will ever happen as long as the government is functioning. And it would be in the best interest of the state to maintain its control over the economy.

…then true capitalism is a pipedream, isn’t it? If the US government ceases to function it will likely be because of the collaps of civilisation, and there’s little profit in that…

Not necessarily. If civilization were to collapse then capitalism will be what rebuilds it not government. In fact, it is highly probable that the collapse of civilization will come as a result of government interference in the markets.

It is better to promote the ideas of capitalism and self ownership in the meantime while we are waiting for government to destroy civilization. This way we are ready with a real peaceful solution if and when it does happen.[/quote]

…i don’t doubt that our civilization will collapse at some point, but i don’t share your trust in humanity that something better [especially based on capitalism] and peaceful can, or will be, built on it’s remnants…

130

[quote]ephrem wrote:
i don’t share your trust in humanity that something better [especially based on capitalism] and peaceful can, or will be, built on it’s remnants…
[/quote]

If people do not believe that they own their own lives you are ultimately right.

131

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
ephrem wrote:
i don’t share your trust in humanity that something better [especially based on capitalism] and peaceful can, or will be, built on it’s remnants…

If people do not believe that they own their own lives you are ultimately right.[/quote]

…i really do wish it was as simple as you make it out to be, but we humans like to complicate things so… i’m not holding my breath. Thank you for this conversation Lift…

132

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
orion wrote:Well I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about. There are billions of goods and services out there and people differ when it comes to ambition and talents, so how could you possibly know how reward whom how much?

The market does that quite efficiently, because you are only rewarded if you produce stuff people actually want enough to buy. Therefore the more you satisfy peoples demands the richer you get. You cannot simply abolish markets without abolishing price signals and from then on you are flying blind.

First of all, AIG and Bank of American (among others) are on track to pay out hundreds of milions of dollars in bonuses. If you say that they are getting these massive rewards because they have “satisfied people’s demands,” then I say you’re delusional. At this point, the only way they could satisfy people’s demands would be with their heads on pikes.

Second of all, I don’t think there are many people who propose to instantly (or even quickly) do away with markets. Abolishing private ownership helps a lot by itself. Supply and demand and the rest of the normal market functions are still there. There would be more planning on a local level, and this would probably increase as time goes on. However, for most everyday consumer goods, there is little need to micromanage production.

The second point you made is actually the same as the first in disguise. Again, what you want to do requires knowledge you can not possibly have. So yes, an emergent system, no matter how chaotic and at times unfair is always better in real life than anything you could possibly administer.

This sounds like a typical insane right-wing rant against some imagined socialist proposal that no one is really making. Socialists (well, most–there are tons of left sects, as I’m sure you’re aware) have long warned against the dangers of concentrating power in the manner you suggest. Indeed, that’s really more or less the whole point. I’ll just assume we misunderstood each other.

[/quote]

AIG bonuses are the result of government intervention. So what does that have to do with the free market?

To your second point, how can you have collective decision making without collective power?

What if I just ignore the collectives decisions?