Do You Believe in God?

[quote]pookie wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
If the text is self-contradictory (i.e. it violates the laws of logic), it can’t be true.

Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Romans 15:33 - Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


2 Kings 2:11 - And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13 - No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.[/quote]

In one sense, God is a man of war. In another, he’s a man of peace. Same for the comparison between 2 Kings and John 3, which you pulled from some Dawkinseque website. You already knew this though. Nobody’s grasp of literary device is so poor as to not understand this.

[quote]pookie wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
If the text is self-contradictory (i.e. it violates the laws of logic), it can’t be true.

Exodus 15:3 - The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

Romans 15:33 - Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


2 Kings 2:11 - And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13 - No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.[/quote]

Yeah, I’m not sure about the self-contradictory thing. I thought all Christians recognized that through Christ our relationship with God had changed, therefore, you’re going to see some contradictions. Which is why while we may still include the Old Testament in the bible, we approach it through a Christian view. I don’t know though, maybe I misunderstand what you mean PR.

Even so, I don’t think John 3:13 can be read as a contradiction to the 2 Kings passage. I’ve always read and understood it to mean that no man (such as myself) can ascend by my own power. So, while Elijah (and I suppose Enoch) may have been called or carried, none who hadn’t descended from heaven had the power himself to ascend to heaven. In other words, it’s making the point that Christ through his own power (having actually descended from heaven) is able to ascend under his own power.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I just found this last night. You guys have to see this shit.

Chris Langan is a fraud.

[/quote]

Nep,

Quit dicking around.

Didn’t you have something about a theodicy to explain?

Just kidding. I would like to hear what you were going to say though.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
Chris Langan is a fraud.
[/quote]

Why is that?

Here’s what he did:
http://www.google.com/search?q=biblical+contradictions&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

It’s a google search for “biblical contradictions” and it turns up the usual “new atheism” websites, which contain the lack of philosophical rigor and tu-quoque we’ve seen from him thus far.

I’ve been expecting him to succeed in providing a consistent ethics independent of God where the rest of Western philosophers to date have failed. So far, I’ve been disappointed.

[quote]new2training wrote:
nephorm wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I just found this last night. You guys have to see this shit.

Chris Langan is a fraud.

Nep,

Quit dicking around.

Didn’t you have something about a theodicy to explain?

Just kidding. I would like to hear what you were going to say though.[/quote]

x2, fill us in big guy.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Varqanir - who has the patience of a saint - tried the more concise, succinct approach; and there too you disingenuously ignore the argument in favor of asking definitions of definitions. Like a 5 year old who asks “why?” of every answer provided, you know that you can avoid acknowledging any point made through the endless word games.

[/quote]

Even the patience of saints has its limits.

PRCalDude, you’ve been a worthy opponent, and I wish you the best of luck with your faith. I sincerely hope that it brings you years of satisfaction, happiness and prosperity. And if it also brings you everlasting bliss in the radiant presence of your Savior and Creator, hey, so much the better.

Now, for me at least, in the immortal words of Tyler Durden, “this conversation…is over.”

[quote]In one you concede that there can be such a thing as a common human nature, a common human experience; and later on retort that we can have no common values because your world view is anthetical to mine.
[/quote]
Allow me to clarify.

In one statement, I said that I thought the “common nature” of man was his sinfulness due to the fall. So I agreed with you on the existence of a common nature. But I have that definition because of my epistemology. You have an atheist epistemology, which is antithetical to mine, therefore your definition of the “common human nature” will be different than mine. You won’t accept mine because mine is grounded in Christian theism. Therefore, we have no common ground on what “common human nature” even is, but we agree that there is one, more or less.

I think you’ll find, as have other teleologists, that “common human nature” is a contentious issue and that it can be used to argue in vastly different directions.

[quote]“What’s ‘good’” Good is actions that are beneficial. “What’s ‘beneficial’?” Were we to explain that beneficial is “to promote well-being” I have no doubt that you’d then ask us to define “well-being.”
[/quote]

I was half-expecting you to go the utilitarian route there and define some “pleasure calculus” ala Bentham and Mill, who failed.

[quote]rsg wrote:
new2training wrote:
nephorm wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I just found this last night. You guys have to see this shit.

Chris Langan is a fraud.

Nep,

Quit dicking around.

Didn’t you have something about a theodicy to explain?

Just kidding. I would like to hear what you were going to say though.

x2, fill us in big guy.[/quote]

As I said, it is a bit unfair to put things out there that I won’t be able to defend in the upcoming days, and I will be away from a computer. But I will explain what I mean by reducing the problem to theodicy. The issue that pookie brought up is that if God mauls young boys, we would like an account of God’s actions. That is, God tells us not to murder, and yet God murders. It is not particularly difficult to imagine a God that punishes, but in this case, the punishment seems out of proportion to the crime. But this sort of talk isn’t very pious anyway, because we would have to question the motivations of the Deity. In the first place, those motivations would necessarily be hidden from us, and in the second place, we are not in a position to pass judgment on God. We may simply resolve the issue by saying that God rules by fiat; that is, there is nothing inherently good nor bad but judgment of the Lord makes it so. And this accords with the account in Genesis that the ability to distinguish fine from base makes us like Elohim.

But this verse raises another problem that is within our reasonable scope of inquiry, and which we cannot resolve in such a way. That is, pookie suggests that the hand of God is the proximate cause of the bears mauling the boys. But this suggests change in the nature of God, and I would suggest that God is necessarily unchanging - this is an argument that Maimonides treats in detail that I simply don’t have the time to reproduce here - but the unity of God, and the idea that the necessary existent must exist in actuality, and not potentiality, means that God cannot have such direct volitions. We cannot attribute motion or other accidents (in the Aristotelian sense) to God, and since time is dependent upon motion, God is necessarily outside of time. So we come up against the problem of miracles occurring in time, which is outside of the character we can infer from the necessary property of the deity.

But the verse does not say that God acted directly. Rather, Elisha utters the curse, and the mission is accomplished. In the interests of time, the reason that Dr. Skeptix’s analysis reduces the problem to theodicy is that the prophet is responsible for his own exercise of power. While the power comes from God, it only comes remotely, in the same sense that our power to create a weapon and kill someone comes from God, remotely. By placing agency on the prophet rather than God Himself, we no longer have to answer the questions “why would God do such a thing,” or “how was God acting in time?” Rather, we have to answer the question “why does God allow injustice or evil in the world?” So that is the question of theodicy, and it is a more reasonable way, I think, of approaching the problem.

My other thoughts are still incubating. I hope some of these made sense.

How can you believe in Intelligent Design after watching something like this: - YouTube

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Therefore, we have no common ground on what “common human nature” even is[/quote]

We have no COMMON ground on what COMMON human nature even is?

We can’t even establish the basis from which we could build a moral framework without invoking deities. You’ve entirely blinded yourself to even the possibility of it.

[quote]belligerent wrote:
nephorm wrote:
Chris Langan is a fraud.

Why is that?

[/quote]

I’ll just say this: Mr. Langan is, to be sure, a very smart man with high aptitude. He is also an impatient man, who, in his hubris, seems to believe that potentiality with regard to intellect is identical with actuality. In other words, I do not think he has put the work in, and I do not think he understands nearly as much as he thinks he does.

[quote]nephorm wrote:

But the verse does not say that God acted directly. Rather, Elisha utters the curse, and the mission is accomplished. In the interests of time, the reason that Dr. Skeptik’s analysis reduces the problem to theodicy is that the prophet is responsible for his own exercise of power. [/quote]

And here, all along I thought that “theodicy” was the sequel to “theilliad.”

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
nephorm wrote:

But the verse does not say that God acted directly. Rather, Elisha utters the curse, and the mission is accomplished. In the interests of time, the reason that Dr. Skeptik’s analysis reduces the problem to theodicy is that the prophet is responsible for his own exercise of power.

And here, all along I thought that “theodicy” was the sequel to “theilliad.”[/quote]

Sorry for the misspelling of your alias, btw. Pure carelessness on my part.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
nephorm wrote:

But the verse does not say that God acted directly. Rather, Elisha utters the curse, and the mission is accomplished. In the interests of time, the reason that Dr. Skeptik’s analysis reduces the problem to theodicy is that the prophet is responsible for his own exercise of power.

And here, all along I thought that “theodicy” was the sequel to “theilliad.”[/quote]

But Nephorm is absolutely correct, in Maimonides’ millenial insights, in the intent of the authors of Kings, and in the way the discussion here developed. My intent may have been to correct gross misreading of the act and the actor, but the discussion brought us to the question of a withdrawn (and unchanging) God and whether He allows evil in the world.

And all this from one obscure passage!

As I have said on other occasions, if you leave religion out of the Bible, it makes for a damn good read.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
new2training wrote:
TQB wrote:
Hell, St Paul and St James, Jesus brother, the leader of the Church at the time, argued about these points. Should we be more presumtious?

I agree. Some of the disciples who knew Jesus personally and listened to his sermons on a regular basis disagreed with each other and were rebuked for not getting the point so to speak.

How can we assume they got it right years after Jesus was crucified?

The Bible says they did. Jesus explained everything to them on the road to Emmaus after his resurrection.[/quote]

According to Paul, James was there, but Paul wasn’t. Yet we have used Paul’s version to interpret the teachings.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I’ll just say this: Mr. Langan is, to be sure, a very smart man with high aptitude. He is also an impatient man, who, in his hubris, seems to believe that potentiality with regard to intellect is identical with actuality. In other words, I do not think he has put the work in, and I do not think he understands nearly as much as he thinks he does.[/quote]

That seems a pretty fair assessment.

Can’t help but wonder what could’ve been if he had a better childhood and found a mentor or at least someone who would have recognized his potential and taken him under his wing.

Going from being beaten at home to beaten at school does not constitute an ideal environment for intellectual development.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
As I said, it is a bit unfair to put things out there that I won’t be able to defend in the upcoming days, and I will be away from a computer. But I will explain what I mean by reducing the problem to theodicy. The issue that pookie brought up is that if God mauls young boys, we would like an account of God’s actions. That is, God tells us not to murder, and yet God murders. It is not particularly difficult to imagine a God that punishes, but in this case, the punishment seems out of proportion to the crime. But this sort of talk isn’t very pious anyway, because we would have to question the motivations of the Deity. In the first place, those motivations would necessarily be hidden from us, and in the second place, we are not in a position to pass judgment on God. We may simply resolve the issue by saying that God rules by fiat; that is, there is nothing inherently good nor bad but judgment of the Lord makes it so. And this accords with the account in Genesis that the ability to distinguish fine from base makes us like Elohim.

But this verse raises another problem that is within our reasonable scope of inquiry, and which we cannot resolve in such a way. That is, pookie suggests that the hand of God is the proximate cause of the bears mauling the boys. But this suggests change in the nature of God, and I would suggest that God is necessarily unchanging - this is an argument that Maimonides treats in detail that I simply don’t have the time to reproduce here - but the unity of God, and the idea that the necessary existent must exist in actuality, and not potentiality, means that God cannot have such direct volitions. We cannot attribute motion or other accidents (in the Aristotelian sense) to God, and since time is dependent upon motion, God is necessarily outside of time. So we come up against the problem of miracles occurring in time, which is outside of the character we can infer from the necessary property of the deity.

But the verse does not say that God acted directly. Rather, Elisha utters the curse, and the mission is accomplished. In the interests of time, the reason that Dr. Skeptix’s analysis reduces the problem to theodicy is that the prophet is responsible for his own exercise of power. While the power comes from God, it only comes remotely, in the same sense that our power to create a weapon and kill someone comes from God, remotely. By placing agency on the prophet rather than God Himself, we no longer have to answer the questions “why would God do such a thing,” or “how was God acting in time?” Rather, we have to answer the question “why does God allow injustice or evil in the world?” So that is the question of theodicy, and it is a more reasonable way, I think, of approaching the problem.

My other thoughts are still incubating. I hope some of these made sense.[/quote]

Very interesting stuff, neph. You should jump in more often.

I’d ask if it is the best approach to interpret the story using concepts and ideas about God that wouldn’t be developed until a few thousand years later, if our desire is to understand the author’s intended meaning as clearly as possible.

If we wish to understand the original author’s intent, the meaning he wanted to communicate when he put the words to paper (or parchment or whatever it is he used), aren’t we better off doing the interpretation by using the idea of God as it was (as best as we can tell) at the time in which the author lived?

It is my understanding that modern thoughts about omniscience, omnipotence, God being simple, unchanging, etc. are all theological concepts that were explored and developed long after the texts of the Bible had been written.

[quote]nephorm wrote:
rsg wrote:
new2training wrote:
nephorm wrote:
belligerent wrote:
I just found this last night. You guys have to see this shit.

Chris Langan is a fraud.

Nep,

Quit dicking around.

Didn’t you have something about a theodicy to explain?

Just kidding. I would like to hear what you were going to say though.

x2, fill us in big guy.

As I said, it is a bit unfair to put things out there that I won’t be able to defend in the upcoming days, and I will be away from a computer. But I will explain what I mean by reducing the problem to theodicy. The issue that pookie brought up is that if God mauls young boys, we would like an account of God’s actions. That is, God tells us not to murder, and yet God murders. It is not particularly difficult to imagine a God that punishes, but in this case, the punishment seems out of proportion to the crime. But this sort of talk isn’t very pious anyway, because we would have to question the motivations of the Deity. In the first place, those motivations would necessarily be hidden from us, and in the second place, we are not in a position to pass judgment on God. We may simply resolve the issue by saying that God rules by fiat; that is, there is nothing inherently good nor bad but judgment of the Lord makes it so. And this accords with the account in Genesis that the ability to distinguish fine from base makes us like Elohim.

But this verse raises another problem that is within our reasonable scope of inquiry, and which we cannot resolve in such a way. That is, pookie suggests that the hand of God is the proximate cause of the bears mauling the boys. But this suggests change in the nature of God, and I would suggest that God is necessarily unchanging - this is an argument that Maimonides treats in detail that I simply don’t have the time to reproduce here - but the unity of God, and the idea that the necessary existent must exist in actuality, and not potentiality, means that God cannot have such direct volitions. We cannot attribute motion or other accidents (in the Aristotelian sense) to God, and since time is dependent upon motion, God is necessarily outside of time. So we come up against the problem of miracles occurring in time, which is outside of the character we can infer from the necessary property of the deity.

But the verse does not say that God acted directly. Rather, Elisha utters the curse, and the mission is accomplished. In the interests of time, the reason that Dr. Skeptix’s analysis reduces the problem to theodicy is that the prophet is responsible for his own exercise of power. While the power comes from God, it only comes remotely, in the same sense that our power to create a weapon and kill someone comes from God, remotely. By placing agency on the prophet rather than God Himself, we no longer have to answer the questions “why would God do such a thing,” or “how was God acting in time?” Rather, we have to answer the question “why does God allow injustice or evil in the world?” So that is the question of theodicy, and it is a more reasonable way, I think, of approaching the problem.

My other thoughts are still incubating. I hope some of these made sense.[/quote]

Ahh, the age old question known as “The Problem of Evil”. This is the reason most people get turned off by religion or religious concepts of God. It is a troubling problem…I find that this is what trips me up the most. Why do somethings have to be so bad…