Oh great.
Now that we have ZEB around, we’ll be drowning in christian-whacko links and pointless ass-long posts when we could discuss Genghis Khan’s awesomeness.
Actually, I might just pick up a copy myself.[/quote]
But how accurate are those writings?
Even the Bible itself gives two different accounts on the death of Judas.
Did he hang himself, or did he fall down and explode?
Those are two very different descriptions of the same man’s death. If the Bible itself gives conflicting accounts, how can we trust other Christian writings, who have had much less scrutiny?
As for your claim of the Bible giving many accounts, it states that some apostles died; it hardly makes the case that they where all martyred.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Oh great.
Now that we have ZEB around, we’ll be drowning in christian-whacko links and pointless ass-long posts when we could discuss Genghis Khan’s awesomeness.
[/quote]
Was he not awesome? ;-]
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
electric_eales wrote:
well done Gkhan, well are you?
No, Genghis worships the sky-god, Tengri, who laughs at Crom hiding in his cave.
By the way, Genghis, did you know that a recent DNA analysis has suggested that the original Genghis Khan has about 16 million living descendants?
Apparently territory wasn’t the only thing he was good at conquering, if ya catch my drift.[/quote]
Ha, I actually know a woman who says she got her DNA tested and is a descendent of his. She’s Polish yet has a Mongol spot on her back.
No, I’m not a Gnostic.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
First, lets start with the concept of a god. All knowing, all seeing, omnipresent; he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I mean, c’mon, we are talking about a GOD here right? The creator of everything right? Good. That means then, that he has created everyone with a plan to serve him. If God has a plan for everyone, which I wholeheartedly believe he does, then it would be foolish to believe that a mortal man could veer from the path that God has set us on.
[/quote]
Maybe there’s no plan. You could build an ant farm, put ants in it, but you can not control what the ants will do. That is how God interacts with man. That’s why there’s sin and hell.
How about that for a wacky idea?
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
ZEB wrote:
I’m not trying to irritate you, but you never really answered my question.
You’ve given me a good mix of your theories and I think I understand what you’ve written. But, I wonder how you came to believe what you have currently believe. Are they all just personal judgements based on your years of experience?
Are there any particular works that you’ve read?
Any philosophical doctrines that you’ve embraced that lead you to your various theories? And have you changed your mind over the years, or have you pretty much stuck to what you believe in currently. And, what would it take to change your mind about your various theories.
Thanks for responding.
You’re right, I didn’t. Well, I’d have to say that it’s come from very mixed sourcing and personal self discovery. I come from a Catholic home, with a very Catholic mother, so that has indeed had an impression on me. However after years of studying Buddhism and zen, I feel very close to those teachings. I would have to admit that I feel as close to Buddhism now as I do to Catholicim and Christianity, even though I have never stepped inside of a temple. Perhaps that day will come. “Living Buddha, Living Christ” was a very good book indeed by Tich Nat Hahn(sp?)[/quote]
I too used to be a Catholic. And interestingly enough, I actually meditated with a Buddhist Priest for the better part of one year. I found Buddhism to be a great philosophy. One filled with the promotion of inner peace manifested by know how to contain your earthly desires thus limiting your personal suffering.
But, as I’m sure you know the founder of Buddhism, Gautam Buddha, never claimed to be God and Buddhism is not really a religion as much as it is a philosophy.
It truly is a wonder all that God created. I constantly marvel at the beauty of nature. Some of my best and most satisfying workout sessions are out in back of my house in my little make shift outdoor gym (I live in a wooded area).
[quote]I talk with many people, of many different faiths, backgrounds, etc., about these things, and have always been stunned by the truths that can be revealed in casual moments/conversations. Even Threads on T-Nation, with even the likes of Lixy ;-]
I hope this has answered your question.[/quote]
You seem open enough and that’s good. Why don’t you give the Christian Bible a good read? Not for a Catholic Priest, or anyone in your family, but for your own edification. Approaching it with such an open mind (as you obviously have) might allow it to reveal itself more fully to you.
Have you ever read the entire book? Most who condemn and mock Christianity (not talking about you here) have not even read the book.
I began reading in proverbs when I first picked up the Bible many years ago and I have not stopped reading it since. For me at least, I found a great deal of wisdom in the book of proverbs.
Anyway, I do have respect for folks like you who give spiritual matters time in their busy lives.
As the Bible says “our life is a vapor” it vanishes quickly. This one thought is sometimes lost on those who have not yet hit their 40th birthday (or so).
Since we are three; body, mind and spirit, it’s good to give some attention to that third entity so very much neglected during the times that we live in.
Take care,
Zeb
[quote]pookie wrote:
ZEB wrote:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=stripbooks&field-keywords=fox’s%20martyrs&results-process=default&dispatch=search/ref=pd_sl_aw_tops-1_stripbooks_41295579_1&results-process=default
Actually, I might just pick up a copy myself.
But how accurate are those writings?[/quote]
How do we know how accurate the writings of Aristotle or Plato are?
There is a great amount of evidence that the Bible is far more accurate in many ways.
[quote]Even the Bible itself gives two different accounts on the death of Judas.
Did he hang himself, or did he fall down and explode?[/quote]
Or did he fall down and explode when he dropped from the rope?
I echoed your own words when I said that the Bible gives two (or is it three?) accounts of Apostles dying horrible deaths.
If the others are recorded in Christian history they are not to be believed because they are not in the Bible? If they are in the Bible they are not to be believed because, well, because they are in the Christian Bible?
I think in the final analysis we pick and choose what makes sense to us. Evidently nothing has yet made sense to you regarding Christianity. While I’d like to change that I’m not nearly smart enough to impress you with my hands on knowledge of Christianity. That’s my fault not yours.
I found out a couple of years ago that I’m not smart enough or nearly persuasive enough to change anyones mind, so I’ve given that up. All that I can do in good conscience is point others in the direction that I know to be true and that has worked well for me and the many that I’ve known. So, when these threads come up, I try to contribute in what I feel is a meaningful way.
Oh well Pookie, either way, you’re still a darn good poster and usually a pleasure to read.
Zeb
True, Zeb. I might try to clear some things up concerning Christianity. For instance, how different denominations approach the bible and it’s ramifications as far as creationism and evolution are concerned. But, on a forum, I don’t get into defending my belief in Christianity, or even to convert others.
Never on a forum. It’s an invitation for potshots and stereotypes that I don’t have time for. Already 19 pages, and this could easily see 19 more. And we learn nothing, save that some see us as a bunch of anti-science, mouth breathing, snake handlers. And that we see them as souls DOOMED TO ETERNAL HELLFIR…ahem, excuse me… As our good neighbors.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
How do we know how accurate the writings of Aristotle or Plato are? [/quote]
Those writings do not contend to be the word of the Eternal Creator; a “rule book” or guide on how we should live our lives and deal with one another.
There is doubt that many parts of the Bible are accurate. There is a town named Jerusalem that exists. There was a king named Herod that throned during the Roman occupation, etc.
There is no evidence, though, for it being all true from cover to cover.
The entire verse reads “Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.”
I don’t see mention of a rope or even a hanging. And “falling headlong” doesn’t, to me, bring up the image of someone dropping from a rope. I also understand “in the midst” to refer to the aforementioned field. There usually a rather vexing lack of trees in fields to hang oneself’s from.
Aren’t you making up details and interpreting rather loosely so that the Bible stays “perfect” and non-contradictory in your mind?
My own words were that there is hardly any support for the martyrdom of the apostles in the Bible. One is ordered killed by Herod and is apparently assassinated by sword. Now, that’s a horrible death, but it hardly allows us to conclude that he died refusing to recant his beliefs.
I was looking for support from secular, less biased sources. If all the support is to be found in the writing of various Christian scholars, then we have to consider the possibility of embellishment (or even outright fabrication) due to faithful fervor.
Think about Josephus, and how much his altered quote was used throughout history to support the divinity of Jesus. His actual quote, as best as we can tell now, was much more prosaic.
Honestly, it’s not so much what makes sense to me, as the vast, vast volume of what does not make sense to me.
For a book that claims to be God’s guide for all of men for all time, it is surprisingly local to the times when it was written. There is no condemnation of slavery - on the opposite, their is support for it. There is no mention of women being considered men’s equals; they have a particular role and place assigned. There is nothing mentioned about racial discrimination; why wouldn’t God point out to us that skin color is not a valid criteria to distinguish a man’s valor? Instead, a lot of Christians still believe that the first black man appeared when Noah cursed his son Ham.
And on and on. Someone writing the Bible today would most probably touch upon these points, as most modern societies consider them basic to human rights. These modern writings (The U.N. Declaration of Human Rights comes to mind) would’ve caused an uproar 2000 years ago. But the actual Bible? There’s nothing particularly out of place for that period.
Don’t feel bad, I’ve yet to change anyone’s mind either. Yet I still find these debates interesting.
Whaddya mean, “usually?”
[quote]Sloth wrote:
True, Zeb. I might try to clear some things up concerning Christianity. For instance, how different denominations approach the bible and it’s ramifications as far as creationism and evolution are concerned. But, on a forum, I don’t get into defending my belief in Christianity, or even to convert others. Never on a forum. It’s an invitation for potshots and stereotypes that I don’t have time for. Already 19 pages, and this could easily see 19 more. And we learn nothing, save that some see us as a bunch of anti-science, mouth breathing, snake handlers. And that we see them as souls DOOMED TO ETERNAL HELLFIR…ahem, excuse me… As our good neighbors.[/quote]
And yet, here you are.
What’s the motivation in commenting sidewise, not really engaging in the debate, and to do so for 19 and more pages?
It obviously doesn’t leave you indifferent.
[quote]electric_eales wrote:
It is very easy for me to explain why I do not believ in god, what I have found with nearly all believers is that they cannot or will not explain why they DO believe in a god, I honestly think that some people do not really know why it is they believe, and other are scared to truely delve into the reasons as to why they believe as this may cause them to doubt their beliefs, which again is back to the whole faith being sticking your fingers in your ears and singing lalalalalalal as loud as possible.
[/quote]
You are equating someone who believes in a magic book or someone who goes to church because ‘we always have’ with someone who has directly experienced God. Strawmen must be proud everywhere!!
[quote]electric_eales wrote:
Ok here is a biggy for you believers out there!
Many of you believe in god because you cannot comprehend that our universe just happened, you believe that it must have required a much mightier power/force (god) to create it and us.
By your logic then there must have been a much more powerful force that created god, and a more powerful force that created that god.
By your logic of how something so amazingly complex must be created by another force, then there must be an infinite number of gods that are more mightier and more powerful than ‘your god’
I am interested those of you who do believe in god do you believe there is also an infinite number of gods before your god?
[/quote]
Reading Aristotle again, are you? Good man!
[quote]pookie wrote:
Sloth wrote:
True, Zeb. I might try to clear some things up concerning Christianity. For instance, how different denominations approach the bible and it’s ramifications as far as creationism and evolution are concerned. But, on a forum, I don’t get into defending my belief in Christianity, or even to convert others. Never on a forum. It’s an invitation for potshots and stereotypes that I don’t have time for. Already 19 pages, and this could easily see 19 more. And we learn nothing, save that some see us as a bunch of anti-science, mouth breathing, snake handlers. And that we see them as souls DOOMED TO ETERNAL HELLFIR…ahem, excuse me… As our good neighbors.
And yet, here you are.
What’s the motivation in commenting sidewise, not really engaging in the debate, and to do so for 19 and more pages?
It obviously doesn’t leave you indifferent.
[/quote]
Yes, I’m here. As I said in the my post, which you’ve quoted, I don’t mind discussing specific aspects, such as how different denominations approach the bible and/or tradition. It’s the “Here’s why you should believe…Here’s why you shouldn’t…” debate that I’m not interested in participating in. Not on a forum, at least.
The “Mouth breathing” and “Doomed to Eternal hellfire” is a bit of levity.
didn’t peter renounce jesus “before the rooster crowed three times”?
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
didn’t peter renounce jesus “before the rooster crowed three times”? [/quote]
It doesn’t really matter. The base argument - that because someone is willing to die for something they believe in makes it true - is without merit from the start.
Poking at the arguments can be entertaining, but the whole point is moot.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
didn’t peter renounce jesus “before the rooster crowed three times”? [/quote]
He did and it was recorded in the Bible. That was before the Spirit of Christ entered into him. And didn’t he also die a martyr?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
didn’t peter renounce jesus “before the rooster crowed three times”?
He did and it was recorded in the Bible. That was before the Spirit of Christ entered into him. And didn’t he also die a martyr?
[/quote]
So they say, so they say. Most of the time I hear of a quote from the bible, there is another contradiction from the bible that follows.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
First, lets start with the concept of a god. All knowing, all seeing, omnipresent; he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I mean, c’mon, we are talking about a GOD here right? The creator of everything right? Good. That means then, that he has created everyone with a plan to serve him. If God has a plan for everyone, which I wholeheartedly believe he does, then it would be foolish to believe that a mortal man could veer from the path that God has set us on.
Maybe there’s no plan. You could build an ant farm, put ants in it, but you can not control what the ants will do. That is how God interacts with man. That’s why there’s sin and hell.
How about that for a wacky idea?[/quote]
You are a fucking idiot.
The definition of God is a being who is Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Benevolent.
If he is benevolent then he would not allow us to wander into sin for he also has the power and the knowledge that we will sin before we do and how to guide us into not sinning.
I am a man of logic. Delusional fucks who believe in a God so defined MUST see that such a being does not exist bas upon how they have defined said being.
You are wrong. Drop dead already you coward and prove to yourself there is a heaven and everything is just fine in your pitiful universe.
Or perhaps you could summon the courage to know that you do not need a protector - a God - to guide you through life.
I am not feeling in a tolerable mood this morning.
Too all those who bury their heads in the sand I hope you have a nice fucking day.
Spry.
[quote]Spry wrote:
Too all those who bury their heads in the sand I hope you have a nice fucking day.
Spry.
[/quote]
Thanks, you too!
[quote]Spry wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
Too all those who bury their heads in the sand I hope you have a nice fucking day.
Spry.
[/quote]
Damn, I was making a joke and I must have hit a nerve.
Have a nice fucking day, fucking idiot.