Disturbing Picture

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
221

[quote]Tank53 wrote:
DeadSexy wrote:
What are the ACTUAL passages in the bible having to do with gays? I’m sure wording will vary depending on which version you have, but what is the EXACT WORDING?

First I want to say, I’m not here to start a debate. But you did ask for the passage so I will provide it to you. Simply stated, Paul is refering to the lostness of humanity. What was the process of the world virtually falling apart? Why has human beings walked away from God? God gave mankind over to the sins of their heart because mankind chose a life without God. God let them go their own way. Here is where its given.

Romans 1:18
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator?who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
  1. I’m an evangelical as well. But I don’t agree with those people’s actions either. The extremists are the ones that can make the face of christianity so ugly. [/quote]

Most translations are either wrong or easily debatable. Check out the “Latest Salvo on Gay Marriage” thread.

100meters does a great job of showing this, though he and those debating haven’t gotten very far through the Bible yet :slight_smile:

-Dan

222

[quote]buffalokilla wrote:
Tank53 wrote:
DeadSexy wrote:
What are the ACTUAL passages in the bible having to do with gays? I’m sure wording will vary depending on which version you have, but what is the EXACT WORDING?

First I want to say, I’m not here to start a debate. But you did ask for the passage so I will provide it to you. Simply stated, Paul is refering to the lostness of humanity. What was the process of the world virtually falling apart? Why has human beings walked away from God? God gave mankind over to the sins of their heart because mankind chose a life without God. God let them go their own way. Here is where its given.

Romans 1:18
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator?who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
  1. I’m an evangelical as well. But I don’t agree with those people’s actions either. The extremists are the ones that can make the face of christianity so ugly.

Most translations are either wrong or easily debatable. Check out the “Latest Salvo on Gay Marriage” thread.

100meters does a great job of showing this, though he and those debating haven’t gotten very far through the Bible yet :slight_smile:

-Dan[/quote]

No actually, upon close inspection most of the Biblical translations are spot on!

If you have any questions relative to the specific ancient Greek compared to the English translation please PM me. I have obtained some incredible source material.

223

[quote]ZEB wrote:
buffalokilla wrote:
Tank53 wrote:
DeadSexy wrote:
What are the ACTUAL passages in the bible having to do with gays? I’m sure wording will vary depending on which version you have, but what is the EXACT WORDING?

First I want to say, I’m not here to start a debate. But you did ask for the passage so I will provide it to you. Simply stated, Paul is refering to the lostness of humanity. What was the process of the world virtually falling apart? Why has human beings walked away from God? God gave mankind over to the sins of their heart because mankind chose a life without God. God let them go their own way. Here is where its given.

Romans 1:18
"18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator?who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
  1. I’m an evangelical as well. But I don’t agree with those people’s actions either. The extremists are the ones that can make the face of christianity so ugly.

Most translations are either wrong or easily debatable. Check out the “Latest Salvo on Gay Marriage” thread.

100meters does a great job of showing this, though he and those debating haven’t gotten very far through the Bible yet :slight_smile:

-Dan

No actually, upon close inspection most of the Biblical translations are spot on!

If you have any questions relative to the specific ancient Greek compared to the English translation please PM me. I have obtained some incredible source material.
[/quote]

I thought the origional bible, or most of it was written in sanskrit or some other ancient arabic language. A greek version of the bible would be just as innacurate as an english copy. The truth of the matter is even in todays modern languages there is no clear cut 100% way to translate one language to another.

My position on any ancient text or foreign language is… hey I have a spirit which can be used to communicate directly with higher ups. Why would I read some book that has been morphed by 100 or more people over countless years on what the higher ups may have intended as a message for them only. Why don’t I just see what the “higher ups” think about my life and my path. then again, most people like to complicate things.

V

224

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I thought the origional bible, or most of it was written in sanskrit or some other ancient arabic language. A greek version of the bible would be just as innacurate as an english copy. The truth of the matter is even in todays modern languages there is no clear cut 100% way to translate one language to another.

My position on any ancient text or foreign language is… hey I have a spirit which can be used to communicate directly with higher ups. Why would I read some book that has been morphed by 100 or more people over countless years on what the higher ups may have intended as a message for them only. Why don’t I just see what the “higher ups” think about my life and my path. then again, most people like to complicate things.

V[/quote]

vegita:

Actually, the New Testament was first written in ancient Hebrew. This language while having only 30,000 characters got the message across quite well.

The reason that we can trust most of the interpretations of this ancient language is because there are a multitude of people who have dedicated their lives to bringing us the very best interpretations of these ancient words as possible. They are standouts in their field, just as the names "Staley, Poliquin, Waterbury, Berardi Thibadeau and many other great Coaches are standouts in their field.

In the Biblical world, people like:

James Barr Distinguished Professor of Hebrew BIble Emeritus, Vanderbilt University.

John Barton Oriel and Laing Professor of the Interpretation of Holy Scripture, University of Oxford.

Jerome Murphy-O’Connor, O.P. Professor Of New testament Ecole Biblque, Jerusalem.

There are far to many to name for the purposes of this post. Rest assured that there have been thousands of men and women who have dedicated their entire lives to ferret out the truth from the various ancient writings of antiquity.

They are indeed reliable. We look to these people just as we look to other profesionals (Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants and yes Strength Coach’s) to assist us with the things in life which we have neither the inclination nor time to unravel on our own.

The many thousands of high quality Biblical interpreters do indeed trump the all of the overnight web sites that have popped up over the past few years claiming superior knowledge. In short, they are a joke compared to the “real deal.”

You can have the highest degree of confidence when you pick up an NIV, or any of the credible (long standing) Bible interpretations that you are getting the real thing!

By all means read the Bible and draw your own conclusions. Do a search and delve into it. You will be surprised how that book has stood the test of time.

225

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Marriage is a word that has a definition. And to most people believe that by default the definition of marriage includes exclusivity of a man and of a woman. And if nothing else you are suggesting to change the definition

Weak logic. This still would do nothing to the institution of heterosexual marriage. Regardless of your concept of definitions, a rose by any other name…[/quote]

Professor
Please explain where my logic is weak.
Thx

226

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Marriage is a word that has a definition. And to most people believe that by default the definition of marriage includes exclusivity of a man and of a woman. And if nothing else you are suggesting to change the definition

Weak logic. This still would do nothing to the institution of heterosexual marriage. Regardless of your concept of definitions, a rose by any other name…

Professor
Please explain where my logic is weak.
Thx

[/quote]
By believing that a word’s “definition” never changes within the context of a changing society, or that it shouldn’t, and that the changing society implies a negative impact on the use of a word.

227

Well, I heard on the news last night this group is coming to a Massachusetts(I think in Marlehead) funeral for a Soldier. :frowning:

228

[quote]Neya wrote:
Well, I heard on the news last night this group is coming to a Massachusetts(I think in Marlehead) funeral for a Soldier. :([/quote]

Was the soldier gay?

229

[quote]Neya wrote:
Well, I heard on the news last night this group is coming to a Massachusetts(I think in Marlehead) funeral for a Soldier. :([/quote]

That disgusts me. There is no reason to politicize a funeral like that, especially on an issue unrelated to how the person died, and without the express consent and with the wishes of the family.

230

If I wasn’t at work I’d have to say I’d do my best to keep these wastes away from that funeral. I don’t need to get violent, they would need top just keep them away from the church and the cemetary

231

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
Marriage is a word that has a definition. And to most people believe that by default the definition of marriage includes exclusivity of a man and of a woman. And if nothing else you are suggesting to change the definition

Weak logic. This still would do nothing to the institution of heterosexual marriage. Regardless of your concept of definitions, a rose by any other name…

Professor
Please explain where my logic is weak.
Thx

By believing that a word’s “definition” never changes within the context of a changing society, or that it shouldn’t, and that the changing society implies a negative impact on the use of a word.
[/quote]

I believe words evolve all the time. I just don?t believe that a word suddenly has a new meaning, just because someone says it has. I believe it may evolve to include same sex unions. But I am not the only human that believes marriage is a hetero thing at this time

232

You may need to make up your mind. Either words evolve because people start to agree on a new meaning, or they don’t.

233

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I believe words evolve all the time. I just don?t believe that a word suddenly has a new meaning, just because someone says it has. I believe it may evolve to include same sex unions. But I am not the only human that believes marriage is a hetero thing at this time[/quote]

Don’t let the politically correct shake the very firm grasp that you have on the meaning of marriage.

67% of Americans agree with you!

234

That poor kid…
He does’nt even know that he’s being raised by ignorance.
His parents should be hung from that tree.

235

[quote]ZEB wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I believe words evolve all the time. I just don?t believe that a word suddenly has a new meaning, just because someone says it has. I believe it may evolve to include same sex unions. But I am not the only human that believes marriage is a hetero thing at this time

Don’t let the politically correct shake the very firm grasp that you have on the meaning of marriage.

67% of Americans agree with you!

[/quote]

This is the part I don’t quite understand: How does what other people think, whether it’s the politically correct or those seeking to uphold traditional values, affect the way anyone should view their own marriage? I have come down on the side of gay marriage not because I am “for” gay marriage per se but because, given my libertarian nature,

I find it problematic that the government should define marriage. My personal definition of marriage is much broader and more meaningful than anything that the law has to say about marriage. Gay marriage would not affect my personal definition of marriage one bit. If you feel that a law that will allow gay people the right to marry will in some way weaken your own marriage, then you need at least two things: (1) a life, so you’ll quit worrying so much about what other people do or think; and (2) a brain, so you’ll learn to think for yourself.

236

My $0.02 -

[quote]ConorM wrote:
I am atheist but even from a Christian point of view the thought that something God created is a sin is hard to take in.[/quote]

Yes - That’s because he didn’t create sin. The Bible is quite clear that the first sin was that of Pride by Lucifer; from that came Rebellion, then War, then Expulsion from Heaven. Lucifer (a.k.a. - Satan) was the Author of sin by his own free will, not God.

[quote]ConorM wrote:
God created homosexuality, was it to test the faith of those born that way?[/quote]

Again, Not true. If this were the case, then God could not specifically forbid this practice while at the same time placing that same desire in a percentage of the population. That would make God the author of confusion, and again The Bible indicates this is not so.

[quote]ConorM wrote:
Think of how much you loved/love your girlfriend, now imagine someone telling you that was a sin. How could it possibly be?[/quote]

Unfortunately, feelings are fleeting and vary radically from day to day (ex. - girlfriend “A” on year X and girlfriend “B” on year X+1) while God is consistant in stating that all “love” (i.e. - sex of any kind) outside of marriage is sin.

[quote]ConorM wrote:
If God is all loving[/quote]

God is not simply a single faceted Diety. The Bible is quite clear in stating that in addition to being all loving; He is also all Holy, all knowing, all present, and completely Pure.

[quote]ConorM wrote:
then sins are only that which cause harm to others not something which results in Love, which is spiritual purity itself.[/quote]

That is not a Biblical understanding of the character of God. His love is balanced by His justice.

[quote]ConorM wrote:
If he created gays and therefore created sin does that not blow the whole God is benevolent theory out of the water? [/quote]

Again, see my first point; God did not create people gay. The truth is much more troubling; we are responsible for our own actions in all areas. This is why we ALL need Jesus - we all need forgiveness.

The Bible states that before the fall, everything was “good”. Post-fall, it’s a totally different story.

MIKE

237

[quote]vroom wrote:
I believe words evolve all the time. I just don’t believe that a word suddenly has a new meaning, just because someone says it has.

You may need to make up your mind. Either words evolve because people start to agree on a new meaning, or they don’t.[/quote]

I feel I have been consistent in my posts. It may be the complex nature of the discussion. But feel free to bring up my past posts that may need some clarification.
THx

238

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
ZEB wrote:
pittbulll wrote:
I believe words evolve all the time. I just don?t believe that a word suddenly has a new meaning, just because someone says it has. I believe it may evolve to include same sex unions. But I am not the only human that believes marriage is a hetero thing at this time

Don’t let the politically correct shake the very firm grasp that you have on the meaning of marriage.

67% of Americans agree with you!

This is the part I don’t quite understand: How does what other people think, whether it’s the politically correct or those seeking to uphold traditional values, affect the way anyone should view their own marriage? I have come down on the side of gay marriage not because I am “for” gay marriage per se but because, given my libertarian nature,

I find it problematic that the government should define marriage. My personal definition of marriage is much broader and more meaningful than anything that the law has to say about marriage. Gay marriage would not affect my personal definition of marriage one bit. If you feel that a law that will allow gay people the right to marry will in some way weaken your own marriage, then you need at least two things: (1) a life, so you’ll quit worrying so much about what other people do or think;
; I don?t understand why my opinion makes someone think I am worrying about anything

and (2) a brain, so you’ll learn to think for yourself.[/quote]

I don?t understand why you think someone that would disagree with you to need a brain.

Personally I believe some day the government is going define marriage to include gay unions. But they haven?t yet .

239

Yes, we do know for sure if there are stable gay couples, the ones trying to get their relationships legally recognized, idiot. The people I know that have been in relationships for 10+ years, some for over twenty years. People who own homes, businesses, who have happy, well adjusted children and who have lived in their communites for years. How’s that for stable?

But all that aside, that assertion just destroyed any credibility you might have had as it proves you simply pull things out of your ass.

And please, don’t quote anymore Freudian psychological theories, as they have been mostly disgarded by responsible prefessionals. (I am one, btw.)

And just why is it that so many of these homophobes (yes I said it, if the shoe fits) spend so much of their time worrying about where some other guy’s dick has been? What’s it to you, if it’s not in your ass or mouth? What goddamned difference does it make whether it’s a choice or genetic happenstance?

Why is it anybody’s business who anybody else sleeps with if nobody is being harmed? And if one is not Christian, Moslem, Jewish or any other religion, how the hell do the laws of that religion apply to them? Do you Christians feel compelled to pray to Mecca five times a day or go on the Hajj because someone from another religion does so? If you believe some behavior is wrong then don’t do it. And if thinking about the “homosexual act” makes you sick, why do you keep thinking about it, moron?

As far as the Bible goes, read what buffalokilla said about it. I read Hebrew, Greek and Latin as part of my study of world religion at the University of Texas and he is the first person who understands that the translations in most English Bibles are either wrong or just examples of laziness when looking up the words.

You know what the homosexual agenda is? Fair treatment and freedom from oppression. That’s it. When that is accomplished, we’ll be done.

240

[quote]JeffR wrote:
marmadogg wrote:

“They ALL vote Republican.”

Most people do.

JeffR

[/quote]

No only half the people do. 51% is really only half. Republicans can’t count.