Dissecting ID

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
On another point, what I continue to find fascinating and have pointed out several times is that leading, so called cutting edge, modern macroevolutionary thought recognizes the huge inadequacies of the loooooong, slooooooow, gradual changes sect and former proponents are abandoning it in droves. They recognize the lack of transitional forms. They recognize the huge inexplicalble gaps in the theory. They have moved on to newer ideas that basically say that macroevolution happened so fast and so suddenly that no transitional life forms would be available or necessary.

So why are so many of the posts here “old school”? I think the reason is that many of you have been indoctrinated by our educational system into a religion and a rigidity of rationalization that makes it exceedingly difficult for you to stray outside the fold. You are sheep waiting to be led. You are a mirror image of the religious people that you despise so much. You just worship a different god. [/quote]

Beautifully said…plus they don’t have to wake up before noon on Sunday so it has its perks.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
On another point, what I continue to find fascinating and have pointed out several times is that leading, so called cutting edge, modern macroevolutionary thought recognizes the huge inadequacies of the loooooong, slooooooow, gradual changes sect and former proponents are abandoning it in droves. They recognize the lack of transitional forms. They recognize the huge inexplicalble gaps in the theory. They have moved on to newer ideas that basically say that macroevolution happened so fast and so suddenly that no transitional life forms would be available or necessary.[/quote]

Link me to the peer-reviewed articles claiming this. You keep telling us what “they” think, so it should be easy to show me.

Well, at least you recognize that you’re a sheep. If you need to try to bring science-educated people down to your level to lessen your cognitive dissonance then more power to you. Just dont play the “poor persecuted me” card to explain away the stupidity of your beliefs. Crackpots ahve been doing it since the beginning of time, so you’re nothing special in that regards.

Btw, if you recognize speciation, I would be interested in hearing why a sudden deliniation occurs at the higher taxa level. Are you saying the evolutioanry mechanisms suddenly stop working at the genus and above taxa levels?? What peer-reviewed articles do you have to support your claim?

[quote]Floortom wrote:

Well, at least you recognize that you’re a sheep. If you need to try to bring science-educated people down to your level to lessen your cognitive dissonance then more power to you. Just dont play the “poor persecuted me” card to explain away the stupidity of your beliefs. Crackpots ahve been doing it since the beginning of time, so you’re nothing special in that regards.
[/quote]

The whooshing sound can now be heard. Classic dick-waving. You have lost your credibility to engage in debate with me.

I know this a long post but it details what I have been saying.

Evolution: The Secret Behind The Propaganda (#351)
by Margaret Helder, Ph.D.
Abstract
It was David Hull, a well-known philosopher of science, who wrote as early as 1965 that ". . . science is not as empirical as many scientists seem to think it is. Unobserved and even unobservable entities play an important part in it.

“Everybody” knows, one might suppose, that evolution is about facts and the creation model is about belief. Certainly this was the message of the PBS TV series entitled “Evolution.” An internal memo sent to PBS stations stated concerning evolution, “All known scientific evidence supports evolution. . . . New discoveries over the past 150 years have all supported the validity of the theory of evolution.” (PBS Internal Memo. 2001. The Evolution Controversy: Use it or Lose it.

Evolution Project/WGBH Boston. June 15, p. 5). The memo further defined a scientific theory as a “higher level of understanding that ties `facts’ together” (p. 5). As to the creation model, the memo dismissed it as “not science. It is part of a religious belief system . . .” (p. 6). Such statements and other similar ones over the years have convinced many that science in general and evolution in particular are based on observations from the natural world and thus they are empirically or factually based.

The interesting thing is that this is not the modern understanding of science among scientists themselves. They have long since abandoned much concern for actual data.

The modern outlook on science is readily apparent from remarks by scientists about their discipline. It was David Hull, a well-known philosopher of science, who wrote as early as 1965 that ". . . science is not as empirical as many scientists seem to think it is. Unobserved and even unobservable entities play an important part in it.

Science is not just the making of observations: it is the making of inferences on the basis of observations within the framework of a theory."1 Within this statement we see what appears to be a balance between facts and interpretation or theory. Dr. Hull, however, had a dubious grasp of what constituted data.

The previous year, he had written concerning the concept of descent with modification from a common ancestor (phylogeny or evolution): "The first factor in the phylogenetic program and the only one that is of an empirical nature is phylogeny, but even phylogeny is not a brute fact to be discovered merely by looking and seeing.

Phylogeny, the subject matter of phylogenetic taxonomy, is an abstraction. It is an abstraction in two respects. First, it is inferred almost exclusively from morphological, genetical, paleontological, and other types of evidence and is not observed directly."2 His thoughts concerning evolutionary descent, we discover, were merely conclusions, not directly indicated by the evidence.

Views on the nature of science were actually in a state of flux at the time that Dr. Hull wrote these papers. Karl Popper in 1934 had pointed out that no theory in science could ever be proven true. The only alternative, he suggested, was to try to prove that theories were false. Those well-tested theories which had not been falsified or disproven on the basis of experimental data, would then qualify for the designation of scientific theory.

The only catch was that many areas of scientific research did not meet these criteria. Theories which could not be falsified, were said to be metaphysical (belief-based) rather than scientific. Accordingly an editorial in the scientific journal Nature in 1981 pointed out that both Darwinism and the idea that God created the world, were metaphysical theories since “the course of supposed past evolution cannot be rerun.”

3 However, such embarrassing characterizations of Darwinism as nonscientific were on their way out. Thomas Kuhn had published his book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, in 1962 thereby ushering in a post-empirical age in scientific understanding.

According to Thomas Kuhn, all science must be conducted in terms of a unifying set of ideas. Without such a theoretical system, said Kuhn, facts were meaningless and science nonexistent. According to philosopher of science, Del Ratzsch, in his recent book, Science and its Limits, this primacy of theory over data has had enormous implications for the practice of science.

The result is that empirical data are not that important to science anymore. According to Dr. Ratzsch: “in arguing that we have no paradigm-independent access to some ultimate reality and that paradigm choices are in part value choices made by scientists, Kuhn is moving the ultimate court of appeal concerning correct pictures of reality away from the world itself [data] and toward the informed consensus of scientists.”

4 Dr. Ratzsch further pointed out, “Since there is no complete and stable and independent external reality to which we have access, there is no particular point in talking about truth in science. . . .”

So what do modern scientists do with data? What they do is to interpret their data in terms of the current scientific paradigm. They do not seek to falsify any paradigm such as evolution because paradigms are not supposed to be easily toppled. Individual falsifying facts won’t cause a paradigm to be rejected. Even a lot of contrary data will have little effect on a paradigm. Evolution of course is the most obvious paradigm which is largely immune to the influence of empirical data. Cosmology is another.

The most obvious casualties of this new definition of science are the concepts of reality and truth. Biologists Mark Siddall and Arnold Kluge, in 1997, for example, suggested that "`the search for truth’ was a misguided venture in science from the start and one that has no basis in reality."5 They further opined that “Truth, though not irrelevant to science, is nonetheless irrelevant to the choice among scientific theories, because it is unknowable.”

Nevertheless these authors conclude that the good news is that we will keep on doing science. They depict the situation thus: “Our assertions regarding the terminal elusiveness of this truth may be seen by some as troubling or even nihilistic. We counter that it is the impossibility of achieving truth that ensures the continuation of scientific endeavor, and that guarantees our perpetual realization of that which is more valuable than truth itself?understanding.”

Science has definitely come a long way. Initially in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, actual observations (empirical data) were highly valued. In some cases they were esteemed too highly. Some people like eighteenth century Scottish philosopher David Hume declared that there was no reality other than what our senses could discover. The material world was all there was.

Gradually theory came to be more important until at the present time empirical data are often ignored. Not all scientists, however, support the Kuhnian appeal to consensus among scientists. Tom Settle, another philosopher of science, deplored the situation. "Many thinkers, seeing that the search for truth is an unending quest, abandon it (in despair perhaps), and settle for agreement with their fellows.

If they are right that it is consensus rather than truth that ought to be aimed for in science, then the picture that emerges . . . is gloomy."6 The worst aspect of the situation is that scientists so dogmatically defend interpretations which are based only on consensus. "But what is vacuous is to abandon truth as regulative and then to agree to something’s being so.

And it undermines science rather than affirms it, since it rules out appeal to reality, it rules out striving to be objective."

It is evident that modern scientists do not attempt to prove paradigms or impor-tant theories like evolution wrong. They merely interpret their data in terms of the paradigm. Evolution is a philosophical starting point, not an observation. As Siddall and Kluge remark: "Biologists are no more immune to the requirements of a sound philosophical foundation than are these other sciences if our occupation ever is to be more than a simple cataloguing of the experiences of our senses.

Evolutionary biology, and phylogenetics in particular, demands this even more because, like the quantum physicist, we are not able to observe that which we seek to explain."

Another biologist, Andrew Brower characterized “descent with modification” as a circular argument or a metaphysical assumption. “There is clearly an ontological leap between tests of individual observations and tests of `descent with modification,’ if the latter is even testable without tautology.”

7 “If `the background knowledge of descent with modification’ underlying cladistics is not testable by independent means, it would seem to be more a metaphysical First Principle like vitalism or orthogenesis than a component of a Popperian hypothetico-deductive approach.” In other words, evolution is not falsifiable, but is an a priori assumption.

Christians, on the other hand, typically take a much more traditional or empirical approach to science. They expect that when contrary data are pointed out, that the hearer’s response will be to reject the paradigm. All too often however, the hearer minimizes the significance of the data, calling them merely “anomalous” or poorly understood. Most supporters of evolution theory expect that the obvious problems will eventually be solved and in the meantime they concentrate on less controversial aspects of the paradigm.

For the present, consensus by scientists is indeed used as a major point in favor of a paradigm. Individuals arguing from a minority position already have a major strike against them. Some scientists also claim that science is an all or nothing proposition with no room for a critical evaluation of individual aspects of the discipline. It was Hull who articulated the all or none principle.

He was referring specifically to evolutionary versus numerical [empirical] categorizing of organisms, and this same argument is used today against the creation model. "Are the inductive inferences made by evolutionists in reconstructing phylogeny sufficiently warranted? . . . . Any decision . . . must rest on the advances of the various sciences using the techniques of discovery and justification which they do use. Hence, induction is justified by an induction!

The arguments presented by the empiricists against evolutionary reconstructions if sound would annihilate not just evolutionary taxonomy but all empirical science."8 According to him, it is pointless to contest scientific speculations on the basis of data, because the whole scientific enterprise holds together. If some theorizing is acceptable, then all of it is beyond challenge.

Since the importance of empirical data in science has long since been downgraded to a subsidiary importance relative to theory, the PBS statements concerning evolution and creation are all the more interesting. The PBS memo implied that evolution could easily have been falsified by negative empirical evidence. On the contrary, scientists have devoted their best efforts to protecting evolution theory from negative data.

In actual fact, it is the creation model supporters today who so frequently appeal to empirical evidence (such as the coded nature and information content of DNA) and the evolutionists who so blissfully fail to recognize the significance of these very same data. Indeed, when all is said and done, the essence of much modern science is that it is not empirical at all but rather post-empirical or theory based. That’s quite a difference. Maybe PBS should run a new creation-based series to alert the public to the real situation.

References
David Hull. 1965. The effect of essentialism on taxonomy?two thousand years of stasis (II). British Journal for the Philosophy of Science 16 (61): 1-18.
David Hull. 1964. Consistency and monophyly. Systematic Zoology 13 (1): 1-11.
Editorial. 1981. How true is the theory of evolution? Nature 290 March 12: 75-76.
Del Ratzsch. 2000. Science and Its Limits: The Natural Sciences in Christian Perspective. InterVarsity Press. pp. 191.
Mark Siddall and Arnold Kluge. 1997. Probabilism and phylogenetic inference. Cladistics 13: 313-336.
Tom Settle. 1979. Popper on “When is a Science not a Science?” Systematic Zoology 28: 521-529.
Andrew Brower. 2000. Evolution is not a necessary assumption of cladistics. Cladistics 16: 143-154.
David Hull. 1967. Certainty and circularity in evolutionary taxonomy. Evolution 21 (1): 174-189.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
IagoMB wrote:

  1. We would not expect to observe large changes directly. Evolution consists mainly of the accumulation of small changes over large periods of time. If we saw something like a fish turning into a frog in just a couple generations, we would have good evidence against evolution.

  2. The evidence for evolution does not depend, even a little, on observing macroevolution directly.[/quote]

Yes, and that is why macroevolution remains a theory - nothing more. True science is established by observation and repeated testing.

But evolutionist tell us it?s not needed. And the empirical evidence supports that. Furthermore, the word theory means much more than what you are stating. See below for more.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
And because there is no known barrier to large change in theory and because we can expect small changes to accumulate into large changes, microevolution implies macroevolution. Small changes to developmental genes or their regulation can cause relatively large changes in the adult organism (Shapiro et al. 2004). in theory

  1. There are many transitional forms that show that macroevolution has occurred. Nonsense. Extinct forms of life in the fossil record that share similar biological features does NOT PROVE “that macroevolution has occurred”. It DOES PROVE it in the minds of those who are already convinced that their theory cannot be wrong.[/quote]

That?s subjective unless you can expand on this. How?

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Creationists claim that microevolution and supermacroevolution are distinct, but they have never provided an iota of evidence to support their claim.

Here’s the iota of evidence. Macro is impossible to observe, test, confirm and repeatedly test and confirm. Creationists hold the higher scientific ground here. They believe that the delineating line between micro and macro is at or possibly slightly above the species level BECAUSE true science allows it there BECAUSE it is observable and testable.
[/quote]

That?s not evidence. You?re stating that it?s impossible to observe so the theory is flawed and the biologist are stating that yes it is impossible to observe and that?s okay since it?s not needed to support evolution. In mathematics, numbers are not real (real numbers included). You cannot touch them, you can only know them in relation to something else. Would you then state that the number two is not real?

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Claim:
There are no transitional fossils. Evolution predicts a continuum between each fossil organism and its ancestors. “Predicts” is the key word here. It is entirely appropriate to “predict” when we are discussing a theory. It is inappropriate it when we are discussing facts.

There are many transitional fossils. What a transitional fossil is, in keeping with what the theory of evolution predicts, Here we go again.

and we find many other sequences between higher taxa that are still very well filled out.

All this works great in discussing theory. Theories can and should be discussed, researched and explored. But my whole point is consistently and conveniently being ignored in that speculations about said theory are constantly granted “fact” status when they have not been arrived at through basic scientific principles. [/quote]

I think you?re questioning the definition of a scientific theory. A simple definition is ?a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena? - theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses and they can be supported with empirical evidence and testing. And what do you mean by responding to the transitional fossil record with ?here we go again?? Here we go again with more evidence?

[quote]throttle132 wrote:

  1. Human ancestry. There are many fossils of human ancestors, Actually the number of available human fossils is inexplicably low and the differences between species are so gradual that it is not always clear where to draw the lines between them. How convenient.

In all reality, the “human fossil” record shows a variety of humans in the past which just so happens to coincide with what we find in the present. We can find, right now, all over the globe, varieties of all shapes and sizes. We can find people with six fingers on the same hand. We can find short people with straight backs. We can find tall people with curved spines. We can find people with long arms, short arms, hunched postures, diseased bones, large craniums, small craniums, sloping foreheads, pelvis’ of various shapes and sizes, and on and on and on.

Macroevolutionists point to these variations in the fossil record as “proof” of human macroevolution. Creationists say it is a simple case of microevolution. Observable = Testable = Fact.[/quote]

As I understand, macro evolution is impossible to observe but there is nothing to suggest that it works the same way as micro evolution. Furthermore, macro evolution is not needed to support evolution theory. There is more than enough evidence from the fossil records, as the articles I posted states.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
We can also find primates that share somewhat similar features with humans. That too in no way establishes fact in the same manner that Oldsmobiles and BMW’s both have timing chains but did not necessarily come from the same factory. It just means that timing chains work great in internal combustion engines of all sizes, designs, and ORIGINS and an intelligent designer would be wise to use a proven concept in his design.

You cite several examples of transitions but use the classic macroevolution “reach”: similar features automatically equals “proof” of macroevolution.[/quote]

From what I understand, macroevolution is not needed for proof. The transitional fossil record is enough.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
These are not examples of proven transitions but merely examples of the diversity and variety of our earth’s biology past and present.

[/quote]

These are examples of the transitions, which is enough to support the theory.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Floortom wrote:

throttle132 wrote:
On another point, what I continue to find fascinating and have pointed out several times is that leading, so called cutting edge, modern macroevolutionary thought recognizes the huge inadequacies of the loooooong, slooooooow, gradual changes sect and former proponents are abandoning it in droves. They recognize the lack of transitional forms. They recognize the huge inexplicalble gaps in the theory. They have moved on to newer ideas that basically say that macroevolution happened so fast and so suddenly that no transitional life forms would be available or necessary.

Link me to the peer-reviewed articles claiming this. You keep telling us what “they” think, so it should be easy to show me.

Good grief. With all due respect, if you are ignorant of this current metamorphosis of macroevolutionary thought than you surely cannot be as educated as you claim. [/quote]

From what I understand, The argument of macro evolution is from the ID side. Biologist are saying that’s it’s not needed because of the transitional fossil records.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Floortom wrote:

throttle132 wrote:
On another point, what I continue to find fascinating and have pointed out several times is that leading, so called cutting edge, modern macroevolutionary thought recognizes the huge inadequacies of the loooooong, slooooooow, gradual changes sect and former proponents are abandoning it in droves. They recognize the lack of transitional forms. They recognize the huge inexplicalble gaps in the theory. They have moved on to newer ideas that basically say that macroevolution happened so fast and so suddenly that no transitional life forms would be available or necessary.

Link me to the peer-reviewed articles claiming this. You keep telling us what “they” think, so it should be easy to show me.

Good grief. With all due respect, if you are ignorant of this current metamorphosis of macroevolutionary thought than you surely cannot be as educated as you claim. [/quote]

If what “they” are saying is so prevalent, then surely you can refer me peer-reviewed journal articles detaling what “they” are saying. Or do you simply regurgitate what creationsist nuts tell you “they” are saying?

BTW, LMFAO@ posting a conspiracy editorial from the creationsist botanist Margaret Helder instead of a peer-reviewed journal article. Oh those EVIL HUMANIST scientists!! LMAO!

“There is no scientific evidence for special creation”

  • Margaret Helder, botanist, 1981 testimony under oath to God in the evolution-creation trial of
    Arkansas balanced treatment Act 590 Margaret Helder is a past vice-president of the Creation Research Society.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
I know this a long post but it details what I have been saying.

Evolution: The Secret Behind The Propaganda (#351)
by Margaret Helder, Ph.D.
[/quote]

Margaret Helder is a young earth scientist who has an agenda to defend creationalism. That’s not objective, that’s not science.

As I understand, macro evolution is impossible to observe but there is nothing to suggest that it works the same way as micro evolution.

I meant “there is nothing to suggest that it DOES NOT work the same way…” Sorry for the confusion.

[quote]IagoMB wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
I know this a long post but it details what I have been saying.

Evolution: The Secret Behind The Propaganda (#351)
by Margaret Helder, Ph.D.

Margaret Helder is a young earth scientist who has an agenda to defend creationalism. That’s not objective, that’s not science. [/quote]

Dude, the earth is 6,000 years old, man lived with dinosaurs, and evolution conveniantly ceases at the Genus level. It’s all in Genesis. Unfortunately, you have been brainwashed by atheist humanist scientists who hate Jesus.

I’m really impressed by the never-ending retreat of creationists over the past century.Speciation used to be the most highly contentious evolutionary implication. It was fought tooth and nail by creationists. Creationists would only accept “adaptation” as a proxy of sorts. Then, as evolutionary theroy became more emboldened by mountains of evidence, the creationsists had to cede the obvious–speciation is a fact, not debatable.

So the creationists move on to Genera. This is what a few in this thread are claiming: no new genera can result from evolutionary mechanisms. Well again, the evidence is clear–they are wrong. Now many creationists have no choice but to accept the obvious in the face of such evidence.

Here’s the Big Cheese (or Big Nut) himself–Henry Morris. Conidered to be by many the intellectual founder of modern creationism:

“Creationists have no problem, however, with speciation, or even the “evolution” of new genera in some instances, as long as such development does not extend to the “family” (dogs, cats, horses, etc.).”< (Henry M. Morris, “The Microwave of Evolution,” BTG No. 152a August 2001, Institute for Creation Research, available at Acts and Facts Magazine | The Institute for Creation Research)

Where does this retreat stop? Right at genus Homo within Family Hominidae. Gee, I wonder why…

Take note of the words of Harvard paleontologist and philosopher of science, Stephen Jay Gould:

Contrary to popular myths, Darwin and Lyell were not the heroes of true science. Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin’s argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life’s history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.1 All paleontologists know that the fossil record contains precious little in the way of intermediate forms; transitions between major groups are characteristically abrupt.2

1 Stephen Jay Gould, “Evolution’s Erratic Pace,” Natural History, Vol. LXXXVI, May 1977, p. 12, 14.

2 Stephen Jay Gould, “The Return of Hopeful Monsters,” Natural History, Vol. LXXXVI, June-July 1977, p. 24.

Now take note of the words of Derek Ager (past president of the British Geological Association and a non-believer in either the Bible or in creationism).

The point emerges that, if we examine the fossil record in detail, whether at the level of orders or of species, we find?over and over again?not gradual evolution, but the sudden explosion of one group at the expense of another.1
In other words, the history of any one part of the earth, like the life of a soldier, consists of long periods of boredom and short periods of terror.2

1 D. V. Ager, “The Nature of the Fossil Record,” Proceedings of the British Geological Association, (Presidential Address), Vol. 87, No. 2, 1976, p. 133.

2 D. V. Ager, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record (New York, John Wiley & Sons, 1973), p. 100.

More:

Richard Lewontin, leading population geneticist at Harvard, has rejected the Darwinist concept of struggle and survival, even at the genetic level,1 and M.I.T.'s Noam Chomsky, recognized as the world’s foremost linguist, stresses that there is no evolutionary transition between the noises of animals and the speech of humans.2

1 Richard Lewontin, “Adaptation,” Scientific American, Vol. 239, September 1978, pp. 213-230.
2 Noam Chomsky, Language and Mind (New York: Harcourt, Brace and Govanovich, Inc., 1972), pp. 67, 68.

More from Gould:

If gradualism is more a product of Western thought than a fact of nature, then we should consider alternative philosophies of change to enlarge our realm of constraining prejudices. In the Soviet Union, for example, scientists are trained with a very different philosophy of change?the so-called dialectical laws, reformulated by Engels from Hegel’s philosophy. The dialectical laws are explicitly punctuational.? Eldredge and I were fascinated to learn that more Russian paleontologists support a model very similar to our punctuated equilibria. The connection cannot be accidental.1

1 Stephen Jay Gould, “Evolution’s Erratic Pace,” Natural History, Vol. LXXXVI, May 1977, p. 16.

Gould again:

[i]"Uniformitarianism is a dual concept. Substantive uniformitarianism (a testable theory of geologic change postulating uniformity of rates of material conditions) is false and stifling to hypothesis formation.1

"Charles Lyell was a lawyer by profession, and his book is one of the most brilliant briefs ever published by an advocate … Lyell relied upon true bits of cunning to establish his uniformitarian views as the only true geology. First, he set up a straw man to demolish … In fact, the catastrophists were much more empirically minded than Lyell. The geologic record does seem to require catastrophes: rocks are fractured and contorted; whole faunas are wiped out. To circumvent this literal appearance, Lyell imposed his imagination upon the evidence. The geologic record, he argued, is extremely imperfect and we must interpolate into it what we can reasonably infer but cannot see. The catastrophists were the hard-nosed empiricists of their day, not the blinded theological apologists."2[/i]
Remember, it should be emphasized that Gould is neither a creationist nor a Biblical catastrophist.

1 Stephen Jay Gould, “Is Uniformitarianism Necessary?” American Journal of Science, Vol. 263, March 1965, p. 223. This same point had been stressed earlier by the writer (The Twilight of Evolution, Philadelphia, Presbyterian and Reformed Publ. Co., 1963, pp. 59-64). Gould has been on the geology faculty at Columbia University and is currently Professor of Geology at Harvard.

2 Stephen Jay Gould, “Catastrophes and Steady-State Earth,” Natural History, February 1975, pp. 16-17.

Ager: (noted evolutionist)[i]
“The hurricane, the flood, or the tsunami may do more in an hour or a day than the ordinary processes of nature have achieved in a thousand years.” 1

"Given all the millennia we have to play with in the stratigraphical record, we can expect our periodic catastrophes to do all the work we want of them."2[/i]

1 Derek V. Ager, The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record (New York, John Wiley and Sons, 1973), p. 19. Ager is Professor and Head of the Department of Geology and Oceanography at the University College of Swansea, England.

2 Ibid.

From an article published in Paleobiology, Vol. 3 (1977) by S.J. Gould and Niles Eldredge we find the following on p. 147:

“At the higher level of evolutionary transition between basic morphological designs, gradualism has always been in trouble, though it remains the ‘official’ position of most Western evolutionists. Smooth intermediates between Baupl?ne are almost impossible to construct, even in thought experiments; there is certainly no evidence for them in the fossil record (curious mosaics like Archaeopteryx do not count).” In his review of Steven Stanley’s book Macroevolution by D.S. Woodruff (Science 208:716 (1980)), Woodruff says (I believe he is quoting Stanley):
“But fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition.”

Mark Ridley, a British evolutionist, tells us in his article published in New Scientist 90:832 (1981) that

“No real evolutionist, whether gradualist or punctuationist, uses the fossil record as evidence in favour of the theory of evolution as opposed to special creation.”