Dissecting ID

[quote]Gregus wrote:
The Pennsylvania Academic Standards require students to learn about Darwin’s Theory of Evolution and eventually to take a standardized test of which evolution is a part.

Because Darwin’s Theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence… Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, Of Pandas and People, is available for students to see if they would like to explore this view in an effort to gain an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves. As is true with any theory, students are encouraged to keep an open mind.

Perfectly reasonable to me.[/quote]

I am mostly in agreement with this. I haven’t read the book (still in print?), so I don’t know that it is a good recommendation, but this is akin to what I was taught in H.S. The rough quote I remember from my classes was that; ‘The principles of the theory of evolution are a fact on a microscale, and based on that, its potential to explain the macroscale is paramount. There are other theories and beliefs, but they do not extend directly from the evidence as covered in biology. This being a [natural] science class, I will only teach [observable] chemistry, physics, and biology and we will only cover evolution as the explanation for the variety of species. Your are free to explore and believe other theories. I cannot, will not, and probably should not teach you anything else.’-I inserted the [words].

I remember this because it was the first time that I can remember science as being subjective. The Pennsylvania Academic Standard is a far cry from what the KSBoE is espousing:

“In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection – how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose. Design detection is used in a number of scientific fields, including anthropology, forensic sciences that seek to explain the cause of events such as a death or fire, cryptanalysis and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI). An inference that certain biological information may be the product of an intelligent cause can be tested or evaluated in the same manner as scientists daily test for design in other sciences.”

This, to me, represents a more, “in depth” coverage of ID. And in my estimation, in order to accurately convey ID to a H.S. biology class and how it precipitates from evolution would require explanations far outside the scope of a H.S. class. Gaussian distributions, Fourier Transformations, Euler’s Method, and other components of Number and Information Theory are all used and understood (as understood as they currently are) in “design detection”. Any one of these is far beyond what a H.S. student has learned and is arguably in capable of being taught in that classroom. I understand that the KSoBE may be using “design detection” to validate the existence of ID rather than why it should be put into a classroom, but that’s part of my point. Evolution largely comes from looking at fossil A (observable biology) and learning how old it is (observable chemistry and physics) and comparing to fossil B and learning how old it is. So, I am not misunderstood, I don’t necessarily believe Occam’s Razor either.

My brother gave me this analogy that I love; In a H.S. science class, the rules and sidelines are clearly defined, and while macroevolution is making the catch on the sidelines, it’s feet are clearly in bound. ID on the other hand, is at best (depending on your particular ID theory) standing on the sidelines holding the ball in bounds.

As for the more advanced fields I mentioned, they are taught in schools (universities and colleges), aren’t necessarily sciences and are open to religious beliefs:

science
-The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
-Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
-Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
-Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I’ve got packing a suitcase down to a science.
-An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
-Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.

From Wikipedia.org:
“If one considers science to be strictly about the physical world, then [the whole of] mathematics itself is not a science. That is, mathematical knowledge exists separate from the physical world.”-Once again, I inserted [words], obviously 1+1 can be observed.

And some rather indicative beliefs of some great mathematicians:

“The laws of nature are but the mathematical thoughts of God.” Euclid

“God does arithmetic” Carl Friedrich Gauss

“For since the fabric of the universe is most perfect and the work of a most wise Creator, nothing at all takes place in the universe in which some rule of maximum or minimum does not appear.”
Leonhard Euler

"The physicists defer only to mathematicians, and the mathematicians defer only to God (though you may be hard pressed to find a mathematician that modest)."Leon M. Lederman

“I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me.” Sir Isaac Newton (makes me think of the football analogy).

Personally, I find myself more aligning myself with Shannon:
“I visualize a time when we will be to robots what dogs are to humans, and I’m rooting for the machines.”

[quote]Vegita wrote:

You still miss the whole point. Darwins “theory” involves evidence. Quite a lot of it I might add. Are there gaps? Sure, the nature of the decaying of old things makes this so. ID is not science, it is religion. IT DOES NOT BELONG IN A SCIENCE CLASSROOM. IT DOES NOT BELONG IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

Yes teach it, but teach it at a church or in a religion class, why is this so hard for you to all accept? Do you actually think you are gonna teach ID and some kid is somehow gonna see the light and convert to your religion?

Either address the crux of the issue or stop wasting our time.

V[/quote]

Actually i did not miss any point. I think you missed the point. And the point is that evolution is being thaught and the students will be tested in it. ID is something the students will be made aware of with books for them to read it they wish. So what!?! Is there a problem with students having more knowledge about different issues? Should their knowledge be guided for them to reach the conclusions you want them to reach?

You also have to keep in mind that those are public schools.

[quote]lucasa wrote:

Personally, I find myself more aligning myself with Shannon:
“I visualize a time when we will be to robots what dogs are to humans, and I’m rooting for the machines.”[/quote]

Since I tend to like most dogs more than most people I am rooting for the canines.

[quote]Gregus wrote:
Vegita wrote:

You still miss the whole point. Darwins “theory” involves evidence. Quite a lot of it I might add. Are there gaps? Sure, the nature of the decaying of old things makes this so. ID is not science, it is religion. IT DOES NOT BELONG IN A SCIENCE CLASSROOM. IT DOES NOT BELONG IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

Yes teach it, but teach it at a church or in a religion class, why is this so hard for you to all accept? Do you actually think you are gonna teach ID and some kid is somehow gonna see the light and convert to your religion?

Either address the crux of the issue or stop wasting our time.

V

Actually i did not miss any point. I think you missed the point. And the point is that evolution is being thaught and the students will be tested in it. ID is something the students will be made aware of with books for them to read it they wish. So what!?! Is there a problem with students having more knowledge about different issues? Should their knowledge be guided for them to reach the conclusions you want them to reach?

You also have to keep in mind that those are public schools.
[/quote]

I want them to gain that knowledge also. I do not want a high school teacher teaching it to them. It might start out as what you listed, but it will be very open to each teachers feelings toward it after it has been around for a few years. Here is the way I look at it, Faith is such an important issue and aspect of peoples lives, they should turn to people who spend thier entire lives teaching it i.e. priests instead of having it thrown at them haphazardly by some geek with pimples.

The thing is your saying it like a human being can actually go through thier life and not ask themselves the questions like, where did we come from, why do we exist etc. Trust me everyone asks these questions, and if they want to look for the answers they know where to look. ID is simply wasting space in a classroom, and it’s encroaching on one very big rule that needs not be enchroached upon over such a silly issue, the separation of church and state.

There is way too much potential harm that could be done and very little real good it would do anyone. In a perfect world, sure it wouldn’t hurt. We all know the world is far from perfect.

V

I’ll throw in some two cents after reading quite a bit on Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Shinto and Hindu creation stories (google religion name + creation).

It seems that ID or Creationist Theory breaks down when you reach the point that ID must maintain the truth of the stories presented in Genesis in order to preserve the underlying basis for all biblical truth. ID cannot be refuted because it would refute the truths presented in the old testament of the bible, therefore making christian/judeo/muslim religions (the religions of Abraham) wrong.

Irreducible complexity and design detection aside, ID boils down to a supernatural influence on life. ID is an attempt to blend science and religion into one theory, but ID only accepts the CH/J/M beliefs in the supernatural. The flaw in ID exists in the adherence to a particular religious dogma, which eliminates the scientific objectivity that it claims to seek.

If ID could be proven, and the existance of the supernatural could be proven, then what happens if it turns out that it was not the CH/J/M God/Allah who had his hand in the building blocks of nature, what happens if it was Brahma, or Purucha (hindu) , or Izanagi and Izanami (shinto). What happens if it is proven that all creatures are sentient and the mind exists after death (Buddhist). Does that make ID invalid because it doesn’t support CH/J/M beliefs?
With those questions, ID becomes a philosophical and theological matter more than a scientific one.

ID shouldn’t share space in the science room because it has, at its roots, deep theological beliefs that Evolution doesn’t have.
This may have all been stated before, but I enjoyed the research and mental exercise.
Thanks.

[quote]Vegita wrote:

I want them to gain that knowledge also. I do not want a high school teacher teaching it to them. It might start out as what you listed, but it will be very open to each teachers feelings toward it after it has been around for a few years. V[/quote]

Uh, you mean like EVERY other field of knowledge taught by anyone? I hate to break this to you, but especially at college level, ALL fields of education are open to interpretation of the one teaching them. Tat is what parents are for and that is what teaching an open mind is for…so that students can learn to think critically for themselves and also how to research all avenues of information.

Some in this thread come across as the type who will teach their kids that religion is for dummies instead of teaching them to discover their own path. My parents were never that way. My dad was a preacher, however, I was told from a kid that I could investigate. I have been to a Bddhist temple and a Catholic church growing up…simply because I wanted to know about it.

There is NOTHING wrong with teaching kids to have an open mind, and fear of a teacher thinking for themselves is a dumb reason to avoid teaching this. The same could be said about those teaching evolution as if it is more than a theory.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
It seems that ID or Creationist Theory breaks down when you reach the point that ID must maintain the truth of the stories presented in Genesis in order to preserve the underlying basis for all biblical truth. ID cannot be refuted because it would refute the truths presented in the old testament of the bible, therefore making christian/judeo/muslim religions (the religions of Abraham) wrong. [/quote]

Could you explain this because nothing you just wrote makes any apparent sense.

If the evolutionists think the theory is so easy to believe in and that ID is so stupid, then why are you worried if both theories are presented to our children? I mean if evolution is so obvious then aren’t you confident that children will see the “such clear truth.”

“A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question”
–Darwin, Origin of the species

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Vegita wrote:

I want them to gain that knowledge also. I do not want a high school teacher teaching it to them. It might start out as what you listed, but it will be very open to each teachers feelings toward it after it has been around for a few years. V

Uh, you mean like EVERY other field of knowledge taught by anyone? I hate to break this to you, but especially at college level, ALL fields of education are open to interpretation of the one teaching them. Tat is what parents are for and that is what teaching an open mind is for…so that students can learn to think critically for themselves and also how to research all avenues of information.

Some in this thread come across as the type who will teach their kids that religion is for dummies instead of teaching them to discover their own path. My parents were never that way. My dad was a preacher, however, I was told from a kid that I could investigate. I have been to a Bddhist temple and a Catholic church growing up…simply because I wanted to know about it.

There is NOTHING wrong with teaching kids to have an open mind, and fear of a teacher thinking for themselves is a dumb reason to avoid teaching this. The same could be said about those teaching evolution as if it is more than a theory.

[/quote]

The way you argue it you make it seem as if I am for teaching kids to have a closed mind. That is completely false and not teaching ID in schools is not going to force kids to think with a closed mind. What do you not get about ID being faith based, and that teaching faith based initiatives in school = not good. It doesn’t add any value. It just simply doesn’t, the only thing it brings into possibility is that a kid could be influenced by a teacher who has limited knowledge of the subject.

Think of all the science teachers out there who are gonna be forced to teach this and then think about thier attitudes towards it. Probably the worst type of people to teach a faith based thing such as ID is a science teacher. They are going to be mocking it the entire time that they spend on it. Or at least a good number of them will. It’s just no good any way you look at it.

Were getting to a point where you don’t see the logic of my arguments and I don’t see the logic in yours. I guess we’ll just have to let this one go for now.

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
What do you not get about ID being faith based, and that teaching faith based initiatives in school = not good. V[/quote]

Actually, religion is faith based. The belief that a more intelligent power guided life on this planet doesn’t need to be based in faith any more than the belief that all life just sprang up for no damn reason out of nothingness and decided that, in a system of utter chaos, it would get more and more organized as time went on. I could call the belief in a higher power a strict belief in E.T., thus eliminating your belief that it MUST mean it is taken from a religious view point.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BH6 wrote:
It seems that ID or Creationist Theory breaks down when you reach the point that ID must maintain the truth of the stories presented in Genesis in order to preserve the underlying basis for all biblical truth. ID cannot be refuted because it would refute the truths presented in the old testament of the bible, therefore making christian/judeo/muslim religions (the religions of Abraham) wrong.

Could you explain this because nothing you just wrote makes any apparent sense.
[/quote]

Certainly. ID subscribers cannot work to prove the validity of the ID theory, without accepting that it may not be true. If it proves wrong, that there is no supernatural power behind nature, then god doesn’t exist. Because they have faith in God and believe in the teachings of thier particular religions, then they will only try to prove the ID theory without accepting arguments against it. Since ID’ers won’t admit that God might not exist, they can’t admit that ID might be wrong.
It is kind of a catch-22.

I guess in my posts I am really being the Devil’s Advocate.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BH6 wrote:
It seems that ID or Creationist Theory breaks down when you reach the point that ID must maintain the truth of the stories presented in Genesis in order to preserve the underlying basis for all biblical truth. ID cannot be refuted because it would refute the truths presented in the old testament of the bible, therefore making christian/judeo/muslim religions (the religions of Abraham) wrong.

Could you explain this because nothing you just wrote makes any apparent sense.

Certainly. ID subscribers cannot work to prove the validity of the ID theory, without accepting that it may not be true. If it proves wrong, that there is no supernatural power behind nature, then god doesn’t exist. Because they have faith in God and believe in the teachings of thier particular religions, then they will only try to prove the ID theory without accepting arguments against it. Since ID’ers won’t admit that God might not exist, they can’t admit that ID might be wrong.
It is kind of a catch-22. [/quote]

And this is different from atheists who believe that there is no God…how?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BH6 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BH6 wrote:
It seems that ID or Creationist Theory breaks down when you reach the point that ID must maintain the truth of the stories presented in Genesis in order to preserve the underlying basis for all biblical truth. ID cannot be refuted because it would refute the truths presented in the old testament of the bible, therefore making christian/judeo/muslim religions (the religions of Abraham) wrong.

Could you explain this because nothing you just wrote makes any apparent sense.

Certainly. ID subscribers cannot work to prove the validity of the ID theory, without accepting that it may not be true. If it proves wrong, that there is no supernatural power behind nature, then god doesn’t exist. Because they have faith in God and believe in the teachings of thier particular religions, then they will only try to prove the ID theory without accepting arguments against it. Since ID’ers won’t admit that God might not exist, they can’t admit that ID might be wrong.
It is kind of a catch-22.

And this is different from atheists who believe that there is no God…how?[/quote]

I haven’t seen any material from an atheist ID’er. I suppose they could exist, but if you subscribe to the ID theory then you are acknowledging the existance of some sort of higher power that influences nature. That would technically be a god, or some sort of god.
Evolutionists could be atheist or religious, but an ID’er is pretty much throwing in with the Ch/J/M creation story.
ID has a religious bias that is difficult to get around, and ultimately affects its claims of scientific objectivity.

Prof, you and I are the only ones that have not started slinging insults at each other. Good debate.

[quote]BigD777 wrote:
If the evolutionists think the theory is so easy to believe in and that ID is so stupid, then why are you worried if both theories are presented to our children? I mean if evolution is so obvious then aren’t you confident that children will see the “such clear truth.”

“A fair result can be obtained only by fully stating and balancing the facts and arguments on both sides of each question”
–Darwin, Origin of the species[/quote]

I think, that if you read my posts, you’ll find that while I don’t believe ID to be stupid, I don’t believe it belongs in a high school science class. I have no problem with an advanced systems analysis class discussing “design detection” and the validity of ID (aside from the fact that, as far as I know, no “design detection” has ever found intelligence that wasn’t our own).

As well, I’m not worried about both views being presented to my children, I’m worried about the state mandating that an intelligence of arbitrary choosing (Hindi, Christian, Jew, Anti-Jew, pro-choice, etc.) as being responsible for the variety of life on earth. Also, ID in various other forms has been put along side evolution in the class room and evolution has (and in my estimation will) triumphed.

ID is purely a religious dogma. There is not one shred of evidence, not one peer-reviewed article, noe one iota of evidence that would ever suggest such hogwash. The only people that are able to delude themselves into giving this theory credibility are religious folks who need to assuage the immense cognitive dissonance that they face due to the insurmontable evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Even the vast majority of religious scientists are able to separate their blind faith from reality and can recognize the hoax that is ID.

ID has no business in a science class unless we plan on teaching kids that Jonah lived in a whale for three days or that rain springs from a crying Zeus’ eyes.

As for the “lets teach kids all the theories and let them decide” people: sure…as soon as you want to teach Alchemy in Chemistry class, holocaust revisionism in History class, and the Koran and the satanic bible in your churches then maybe I’ll believe that your fence-sitting is genuine.

Can one of you anti- ID types please explain to me how we got from amino acids to mammals?

I understand evolution from that point on and there is a good bit of supporting evidence.

[quote]BH6 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BH6 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BH6 wrote:
It seems that ID or Creationist Theory breaks down when you reach the point that ID must maintain the truth of the stories presented in Genesis in order to preserve the underlying basis for all biblical truth. ID cannot be refuted because it would refute the truths presented in the old testament of the bible, therefore making christian/judeo/muslim religions (the religions of Abraham) wrong.

Could you explain this because nothing you just wrote makes any apparent sense.

Certainly. ID subscribers cannot work to prove the validity of the ID theory, without accepting that it may not be true. If it proves wrong, that there is no supernatural power behind nature, then god doesn’t exist. Because they have faith in God and believe in the teachings of thier particular religions, then they will only try to prove the ID theory without accepting arguments against it. Since ID’ers won’t admit that God might not exist, they can’t admit that ID might be wrong.
It is kind of a catch-22.

And this is different from atheists who believe that there is no God…how?

I haven’t seen any material from an atheist ID’er. I suppose they could exist, but if you subscribe to the ID theory then you are acknowledging the existance of some sort of higher power that influences nature. That would technically be a god, or some sort of god.
Evolutionists could be atheist or religious, but an ID’er is pretty much throwing in with the Ch/J/M creation story.
ID has a religious bias that is difficult to get around, and ultimately affects its claims of scientific objectivity.

Prof, you and I are the only ones that have not started slinging insults at each other. Good debate.
[/quote]

Me and the Prof hav’t insulted eachother either, actually to this point this is one of our best discussions ever. We just don’t see eachothers points as valid thats all.

Prof, the only other thing i’ll say with regard to your point about athiests is. Teaching evolution, does not necisarrily go against believe in god, only that god created and then let go. Therefore, teaching evolution does not promote the athiest agenda. All the theory of evolution does is say, “well we have all these bones, and as time passes bones that are alike disappear, while other bones that are very close but different in certain ways start showing up. This leads us to believe that somehow, the owners of the origional bones somehow changed into the owners of the new bones. This could be because it was natural selection.”

No where does this either promote athiesm or any type of thinking about spiritual issues. It is presenting evidence and giving the best theory based on the proof they have available to them.

To your point, I do believe athiests are a little closed minded, only in the fact that a true athiest believes there is no god. Agnostic is much more open minded in my view point if one is to question the existance of a god.

V

[quote]Floortom wrote:
ID is purely a religious dogma. There is not one shred of evidence, not one peer-reviewed article, noe one iota of evidence that would ever suggest such hogwash. The only people that are able to delude themselves into giving this theory credibility are religious folks who need to assuage the immense cognitive dissonance that they face due to the insurmontable evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Even the vast majority of religious scientists are able to separate their blind faith from reality and can recognize the hoax that is ID.[/quote]

This is the exact type of post I was referring to. Some of you can pretend that “evolutionists” (even though most Christians understand simple evolution within species) are being attacked…but it seems to be quite the opposite.

It boils down to evolutions can back up their claims with at least some evidence where as intelligent design followers can only back up their claims with faith. I’d much rather have physical evidence rather than somebody’s belief determining the scope and direction of a classroom.

A succinct point. Sun burns out I die. Thats a pretty big fucking flaw in something thats supposed to be “intelligently” designed.