Dissecting ID

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Nope, an alternative theory was posited, one with more evidence, and was accepted.
[/quote]

Yep. They posited. They failed. They posited. They failed. Nothing inherently wrong with that. Edison failed more than he succeeded. But what they also do is “cling”. Cling to the underlying notion that the basic underlying hypothesized contentions of evolution just CAN’T be wrong. They have faith, Tom. Real, live, honest-to-God (whoops, shouldn’t have used a term like that with Deity-hatin’ dude like you) FAITH. Yeah, the very thing you despise and ridicule the most…you and them got it…in spades, man, in spades. You got faith that somehow, some way your evolutionist bishops will finally find the “proof” that your god lives.

(You can feel it down deep in your soul, can’t you? That firm conviction. That confidence. That assurance. It’s there, buddy. It’s there.) You and them are so deeply religious but you just can’t see it and if you could you wouldn’t admit it.

[quote]CU AeroStallion wrote:
I can’t beleive y’all are still arguing…
no one is going to convince anyone else of their beleifs, and that you CAN beleive![/quote]

Hey, we’re having fun and I consider all these guys my friends even though we disagree. Lighten up.

[quote]Xvim wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Xvim, you’re way off on the theoretical age of ole’ Rama. He’s supposed to be 8 - 14 million years old not 10,000. You have got to get it together, bud.

http://piclib.nhm.ac.uk/piclib/www/image.php?img=87319&frm=ser&search=ape

Thanks for taking the bait, you’ve already said the earth is 6,000 years old or less. [/quote]

You can’t find a post from me saying the earth is 6,000 years old. However, I do believe in a relatively young earth.

Go to my earlier post about dating methods.

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
I’m sorry, but claiming that chimps and fish are equally dissimilar to humans [/quote]

Who did this?

Xvim was taking about “feelings”.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
I’m sorry, but claiming that chimps and fish are equally dissimilar to humans

Who did this?

Xvim was taking about “feelings”.

[/quote]

Well, Push said he feels no closer to Chimps than he does to Fish.

And I will be your friend, I just think you’re a little bit kookoo with this anti-evolution stuff.

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
I’m sorry, but claiming that chimps and fish are equally dissimilar to humans

Who did this?

Xvim was taking about “feelings”.

Well, Push said he feels no closer to Chimps than he does to Fish.[/quote]
Exactly. “Feels”.

[quote]
And I will be your friend, I just think you’re a little bit kookoo with this anti-evolution stuff.[/quote]
The feeling is mutual but I had to write the part about friends because some including one mod, are viewing this debate as childish and we hate each other, etc. It’s not that way. It is an intellectual exercise, at least for me. Yes, it’s something I strongly believe in but helps fuel the desire to continue the exercise. And I’m sure it’s that way for you too…especially the part about “strongly believing”. Having said all that I do appreciate you guys taking the time to engage in this debate. I really do consider you my friends. It is not a waste of time for either side. It does make you think regardless of which side you are on and it’s irrelevant whether either one of us convinces the other that we are right.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
I’m sorry, but claiming that chimps and fish are equally dissimilar to humans

Who did this?

Xvim was taking about “feelings”.

Well, Push said he feels no closer to Chimps than he does to Fish.
Exactly. “Feels”.

And I will be your friend, I just think you’re a little bit kookoo with this anti-evolution stuff.
The feeling is mutual but I had to write the part about friends because some including one mod, are viewing this debate as childish and we hate each other, etc. It’s not that way. It is an intellectual exercise, at least for me. Yes, it’s something I strongly believe in but helps fuel the desire to continue the exercise. And I’m sure it’s that way for you too…especially the part about “strongly believing”. Having said all that I do appreciate you guys taking the time to engage in this debate. I really do consider you my friends. It is not a waste of time for either side. It does make you think regardless of which side you are on and it’s irrelevant whether either one of us convinces the other that we are right.

[/quote]

All I know is that your views of religion and bla bla bla are far outwieghed by your appreciation for ass. That my friend will be a bond that can never be broken.

V

[quote]Floortom wrote:
Yeah, but you and your fundie friends DO…LOL. Is that how you came to realize that the earth is 6,000 years old and Noah rode to work on a dinosaur every morning?
[/quote]

Bro, where in my posts did I ever say I believe the earth is 6,000 years old? You assume too much.

Bro, do you know what the word “inference” means? It is not fact, proof, or evidence. It is conjecture. That is not science my friend.

Also, with such a great track record of “predictions”, if evolutionary science is so accurate, why the hell have they found thousands of fossils and no confirmed intermediate species between man and ape?

[quote]Xvim wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Xvim, you’re way off on the theoretical age of ole’ Rama. He’s supposed to be 8 - 14 million years old not 10,000. You have got to get it together, bud.

http://piclib.nhm.ac.uk/piclib/www/image.php?img=87319&frm=ser&search=ape

Thanks for taking the bait, you’ve already said the earth is 6,000 years old or less. How could ramapithicus be 8 to 14 million years old? [/quote]

If you were “baiting” me on the age deal, what could you hope to accomplish by mentioning the Australopithicus and the ramapithicine fossils to begin with? Both of them have been discredited as possible missing links so you do your side a disservice by mentioning them.

BTW, Lorisco brings up a good point again. The evolutionary model predicts many, many transitional fossils but so far no indisputable ones have been produced. For the last 150 years ago, all the ape-to-man fossils have been one of the following:

  1. hoaxes
  2. extinct apes or other primates
  3. bona fide Homo Sapien humans

[quote]Xvim wrote:

Wait a minute, BBC, National Geographic, New Scientist… they must all be part of the Church of Evolution?
[/quote]

You got that right.

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:

I’m sorry, but claiming that chimps and fish are equally dissimilar to humans is like claiming a sphere and a cube are equally dissimilar to a circle. Anyone without a tragic form of brain damage can see that the circle and sphere share certain characteristics that the square and circle don’t.
[/quote]

You’re actually and inadvertently making a case for intelligent design here. Yes, humans share more design characteristics with chimps than they do fish. The sign of a good designer is that he knows how to use successful operating mechanisms in more than one model.

This analogy was used earlier. Automotive flywheels make good sense and work well in BMW’s AND Chevrolets. Just because you find flywheels in both cars doesn’t mean both cars came from the same factory.

Design similarities = common designer not common origin.

This is another example of viewing the same evidence with different sets of glasses. The facts are clear - chimps and humans share some characteristics. That is indisputable. Now the evolutionist looks at that evidence and says, “Hah! One evolved from the other or there must be a common ancestor here!” The creationist looks at the evidence and says, “Hah! The designer knew he had a good thing with this mechanism so he used it again in another species, genus, order, whatever. Smart guy!”

So for the umpteenth time it all depends on what presuppositions (glasses) one brings to the table. The evolutionist CANNOT honestly hold the view that he is unbiased and wears no glasses and neither can the creationist.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Xvim wrote:

Wait a minute, BBC, National Geographic, New Scientist… they must all be part of the Church of Evolution?

You got that right.
[/quote]

Tin foil hat time.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Sorry for jumping back in the middle of this one, and i’m not switching sides, but I just read the best argument for ID yet and I wanted to share it. I think this is what most ID proponents want to say but this gentleman articulates it very well. I especially like the analogy with easter island. more of my .02 after the letter.

“Intelligent Design” is not an attack on Darwinian evolution, nor is it a radical movement of Christian fundamentalists. Darwin only attempted to explain the diversity of observed life forms and proposed that this could have come about naturally by means of gradual changes where beneficial mutations became dominant through the process of natural selection (survival of the fittest).

At the time Darwin lived, the cell, the foundation upon which all evolutionary organisms are based, was thought to be no more than a lump of protoplasm and there was no understanding of the complexities of DNA and intra-cellular molecular processes. There is absolutely no way that his theory could have comprehended the development of “life” at this level.

“Intelligent Design” looks at what Darwin was not capable of looking at. It focuses on the development of the cell and the biomolecular evolution that must have occurred in order for the first cell to have come into existence. It asks the question, “Could natural selection have also played a role in the development of intra-cellular functions?” The answer that many leading scientific minds have come to is, “No, the odds against even the simplest of cellular proteins forming spontaneously are simply astronomical. Many of the molecular processes occurring within the cell are irreducibly complex, so only a tremendous leap of faith could allow one to assume spontaneous origins.” In addition, it is now recognized that DNA is the most densely coded information in the known universe. Where did this information come from? Did it form spontaneously? If so, by what process? These are reasonable avenues of scientific inquiry.

It also asks the question, “How can we recognize intelligent design?” If you find a statue poking out of the beach sand (like the ones on Easter Island), you are very unlikely to say, “Wow! Look how the wind carved that rock!” It is a very easy matter for someone of even limited intelligence to recognize that the rock shape was “designed” and “constructed” by some intelligence. By whom, we don’t know. For what purpose, we don’t know. But it is clearly not a “natural” formation. So the “Intelligent Design” school attempts to define logical rules by which “designed” structures can be detected from natural, random structures. This would seem to be a reasonable effort if we are to take an unbiased look at the universe. (The presumptions that there is or is no intelligent creator of the universe are equally biased. Why not have an open mind?)

It may be true that fundamental Christian organizations welcome this scientific support for “a God” behind the universe, but the “Intelligent Design” movement does not directly make any such claim or support a religious dogma. It is simply an attempt to observe the natural world around us using the latest possible scientific data and attempt to explain what is observed. Why should this information be suppressed? Who are the ones with the closed minds?

If you are ever serious about understanding “Intelligent Design” instead of just throwing meatballs at something about which you know nothing, I suggest reading Michael Behe’s “Darwin’s Black Box”. I think you will find it enlightening and scientific to the core.

my.02
OK now I actually do favor the idea that the first life on earth was “planted” by someone. I don’t think “god” did this at least not here on earth, allthough it is possible. More than likely another sentient being planted a seed or a few seeds of dna rich cingle celled organisms and then sat back and watched. There is also a possibility that they influenced the organisms along the way to some extent.

Take the dinosaurs for example, perhaps these beings were looking to create “high” intelligence, perhaps the thought dinosaurs could have been that and let them develop for a long time. After waiting for a real long time, they decided to scrap the program. The launch a huge asteroid at the planet and erase it like an etch-a-sketch.

After this they tweak the DNA in a few different reptiles, they change characteristics, and develop mammilian brains. Think of how easy this could be, we arent all that far off this technology ourselves. We are already cloning animals, and very close to being able to change characteristics like hair color, eye color etc. So they just swoop down in thier saucers, abduct a few small creatures and expirament on them.

Many believe they are doing this now with humans, maybe there is another evolutionary step that is going to take place soon?

Anyway, I actually think most of evolution happened on it’s own, I think major landscape changes such as the appearance of mammals might be the only areas that “something” interviened.

My question to the ID proponents. Can I teach my theory in schools as well? Specifically in a science class? it explains our origins just as well as your version and we have more “evidence” if you will that there are space ships and aliens, and that they visit our planet.

I don’t disagree with ID or think it’s impossible, or that it’s even a bad theory, it’s just a faith based theory, no proof, and very little “evidence” actually the only evidence there is is that DNA is too coplex to be a natural occurance, much like the stones at stonehedge, or easter island.

Phew!

V[/quote]

Very good quote in this post. Very pertinent. Very savvy argument.

Now regarding your $.02. You’re getting to the heart of the matter here as far as the debate on allowing the teaching of the competing theories in public schools.

The spaceships and aliens in your scenario replace God in the creationist scenario. So I.D. proponents say “Fine”. Teach the intelligent design portion in the classroom but don’t speculate about who the designer is (whether he is a alien or Almighty God or whatever). You’re right. That’s the faith part of it. I.D. proponents would be comfortable with that because it gets a valid scientific theory out on the table and the student is not sheltered. He learns. He gains knowledge. Science is knowledge.

Now the student has the opportunity to examine both theories whether the theories’ proponents think theirs is the stronger one or not. Let the student evaluate. If the I.D. theory is actually weak and baseless then the student will see that and it would be an ideal time for him to explore those weaknesses and vice versa with evolution.

“But” the anti-ID’er screams, “I.D. implies a God and that is faith. That is religion!”. “But” the ID’er screams back, “Evolution implies no God and that is faith. That too is religion!”.

The answer? Teach 'em both and let the chips fall where they may.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
This is another example of viewing the same evidence with different sets of glasses. The facts are clear - chimps and humans share some characteristics. That is indisputable. Now the evolutionist looks at that evidence and says, “Hah! One evolved from the other or there must be a common ancestor here!” The creationist looks at the evidence and says, “Hah! The designer knew he had a good thing with this mechanism so he used it again in another species, genus, order, whatever. Smart guy!”

So for the umpteenth time it all depends on what presuppositions (glasses) one brings to the table. The evolutionist CANNOT honestly hold the view that he is unbiased and wears no glasses and neither can the creationist.[/quote]

Excellent points Throttle. This is the entire issue from my perspective. Given that both sides have the same evidence and neither have scientific proof (without conjecture or assumption) one should not be treated as fact or more scientific than the other. Both are the same and both take faith in the institution that supports them. Anyone who can’t see this doesn’t understand the difference between scientific proof and scientific theory.

[quote]Xvim wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Xvim wrote:

Wait a minute, BBC, National Geographic, New Scientist… they must all be part of the Church of Evolution?

You got that right.

Tin foil hat time.[/quote]

I don’t know about the BBC (we could safely speculate though) but the two publications you mention would have no problem whatsoever issuing a statement that they support the hypothesis of evolution. I subscribe to N.G. so I KNOW how they feel on this subject. You don’t think N.G. and N.S. are biased in favor of evolution? If not then tin foil hat time for you, pard.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

Also, with such a great track record of “predictions”, if evolutionary science is so accurate, why the hell have they found thousands of fossils and no confirmed intermediate species between man and ape?

[/quote]

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/transitional.html
Go figure, a Christian who disagrees with you on your own terms. I suppose Time magazine is in on the conspiracy as well.

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects97/weimanp/fossils.html

And for those who have issues with Australopithicus…

In 1950, Wilfred Le Gros Clark published a paper which definitively settled the question of whether the australopithecines were apes or not. He performed a morphological study (based on the shape and function) of teeth and jaws, since these formed most of the fossil evidence. By studying human and modern ape fossils, Le Gros Clark came up with a list of eleven consistent differences between humans and apes. Looking at A. africanus and robustus (the only australopithecine species then known), he found that they were humanlike rather than apelike in every characteristic. Judged by the same criteria, A. afarensis falls somewhere between humans and apes, and possibly closer to the apes (Johanson and Edey 1981). White et al. (1994) did not judge A. ramidus by these criteria, but it is clear that ramidus is even more chimpanzee-like than afarensis. The ramidus arm bones also display a mixture of hominid and ape characteristics.

Solly Zuckerman attempted to prove with biometrical studies (based on measurements) that the australopithecines were apes. Zuckerman lost this debate in the 1950’s, and his position was abandoned by everyone else (Johanson and Edey 1981). Creationists like to quote his opinions as if they were still a scientifically acceptable viewpoint.

Charles Oxnard (1975), in a paper that is widely cited by creationists, claimed, based on his multivariate analyses, that australopithecines are no more closely related, or more similar, to humans than modern apes are. Howell et al.(1978) criticized this conclusion on a number of grounds. Oxnard’s results were based on measurements of a few skeletal bones which were usually fragmentary and often poorly preserved. The measurements did not describe the complex shape of some bones, and did not distinguish between aspects which are important for understanding locomotion from those which were not. Finally, there is “an overwhelming body of evidence”, based on the work of nearly 30 scientists, which contradicts Oxnard’s work. These studies used a variety of techniques, including those used by Oxnard, and were based on many different body parts and joint complexes. They overwhelmingly indicate that australopithecines resemble humans more closely than the living apes.

Creationists often cite Oxnard’s qualifications, and use of computers to perform his calculations, with approval. This is special pleading; many other scientists are equally qualified, and also use computers. Gish (1993) states that “[a] computer doesn’t lie, [a] computer doesn’t have a bias”. True enough, but the results that come out of a computer are only as good as the data and assumptions that go in. In this case, the primary assumption would seem to be that Oxnard’s methods are the best method of determining relationships. This seems doubtful, given some of the other unusual results of Oxnard’s study (1987). For example, he places Ramapithecus as the ape closest to humans, and Sivapithecus as closely related to orang-utans, even though the two are so similar that they are now considered to be the same species of Sivapithecus.

Less controversially, Oxnard also claims that, while probably bipedal, australopithecines did not walk identically to modern humans. Creationists sometimes quote this conclusion in a highly misleading manner, saying Oxnard proved that australopithecines did not walk upright, and then adding, as an afterthought (or in Willis’ (1987) case, not at all) “at least, not in the human manner”.

Creationists are generally reluctant to accept that australopithecines, including Lucy, were bipedal. A statement by Weaver (1985) that “Australopithecus afarensis … demonstrates virtually complete adaptation to upright walking” is dismissed by Willis (1987) as “a preposterous claim”. Willis adds: “Many competent anthropologists have carefully examined these and other “Australopithicine” [sic] remains and concluded that Lucy could not walk upright.”

Willis’ evidence for this consists of a statement by Solly Zuckerman made in 1970; a 1971 statement from Richard Leakey that australopithecines “may have been knuckle-walkers”, and a quote from Charles Oxnard about the relationship between humans, australopithecines and the apes. In fact, none of these quotes refer to Lucy. Two of them were made before Lucy, and A. afarensis, was even discovered (and the third was made very soon afterwards, before Lucy had been studied).

Even in 1970, Zuckerman’s views had long since been largely abandoned. In what is obviously a fabrication, Willis says that Leakey “referred to Lucy as an ape who did not walk upright”, three years before Lucy was discovered. Leakey was merely making a suggestion (about robust australopithecines) which he soon retracted, not stating a firm opinion, and he has since stated (1994) that Lucy “undoubtedly was a biped”. Oxnard (1975; 1987) has some unorthodox opinions about the australopithecines, but the Oxnard quote supplied by Willis discusses neither bipedality nor A. afarensis. Elsewhere in the same paper that Willis refers to, Oxnard (1975) repeatedly mentions that australopithecines may have been bipedal, and he has since stated (1987) that the australopithecines, including Lucy, were bipedal.

Gish (1985) has a long discussion of the debate about Lucy’s locomotion. He quotes extensively from Stern and Susman (1983), who list many apelike features of A. afarensis and argue that it spent a significant amount of time in the trees. As Gish admits, none of the scientists he mentions deny that Lucy was bipedal, but he goes on to suggest, with no evidence or support, that A. afarensis may have been no more bipedal than living apes, which are well adapted to quadrupedality and only walk on two legs for short distances. By contrast, the feet, knees, legs and pelvises of australopithecines are strongly adapted to bipedality. Gish’s conclusion is strongly rejected by Stern and Susman, and, apparently, everyone else:

"That bipedality was a more fundamental part of australopithecine behavior than in any other living or extinct nonhuman primate is not in serious dispute."

"... we must emphasize that in no way do we dispute the claim that terrestrial bipedality was a far more significant component of the behavior of A. afarensis than in any living nonhuman primate." (Stern, Jr. and Susman 1983)

"The most significant features for bipedalism include shortened iliac blades, lumbar curve, knees approaching midline, distal articular surface of tiba nearly perpendicular to the shaft, robust metatarsal I with expanded head, convergent hallux (big toe), and proximal foot phalanges with dorsally oriented proximal articular surfaces. (McHenry 1994) 

Gish writes as if showing that A. afarensis did not “walk upright in the human manner” is all that is needed to disqualify it as a human ancestor. But there is no reason that bipedality, when it first arose, had to be identical to human bipedality; that final step could have occurred later. As Stern and Susman (1983) state:

"In our opinion A. afarensis is very close to what can be called a "missing link". It possesses a combination of traits entirely appropriate for an animal that had traveled well down the road toward full-time bipedality ..." 

Creationist John Morris writes:

"From the neck down, certain clues suggested to Johanson that Lucy walked a little more erect than today's chimps. This conclusion, based on his interpretation of the partial hip bone and a knee bone, has been hotly contested by many paleoanthropologists." (Morris 1994) 

Almost everything in this quote is a distortion (Johanson’s and Lucy’s names are about the only exceptions). “Certain clues suggested” doesn’t mention that the whole find screamed “bipedality” to every qualified scientist who looked at it. “a little more erect”, when everyone believes that Lucy was fully erect. “the partial hip bone and a knee bone”, when Lucy included almost a complete pelvis and leg (taking mirror imaging into account, and excluding the foot). “has been hotly contested”, when no reputable paleoanthropologist denies that Lucy was bipedal. The debates are about whether she was also arboreal, and about how similar the biomechanics of her locomotion was to that of humans. Given that we have most of Lucy’s leg and pelvis, one has to wonder what sort of fossil evidence it would take to convince creationists of australopithecine bipedality.

To support the idea that australopithecines are just apes, Parker says:

"In their critique of the Leakeys, Johanson and White (1980) noted: 'Modern chimpanzees, by this definition [Richard Leakey's] would be classified as A. africanus.' Apes after all?" (Morris and Parker 1982) 

When the paper by Johanson and White is examined, it is apparent that Parker has taken their quote out of context in a way that almost reverses its meaning. Leakey did not call A. africanus a chimp, nor did Johanson and White accuse him of doing so. They criticized Leakey’s definition because it was imprecise enough to also include chimps. Of course, such a criticism only makes sense if A. africanus is not a chimp.

In 1987, creationist Tom Willis accused Donald Johanson of fraud, claiming that the skeleton known as “Lucy” consisted of bones that had been found at two sites about 2.5 km (1.5 miles) apart. Willis had actually confused two separate finds which belong to the same species. (This was in spite of the fact that a best-selling book (Johanson and Edey 1981) has photos of both fossils: AL 129-1 is a right knee, while Lucy has a right femur and a left tibia.) This was a spectacular error which could hardly have been made by anyone who had done the most elementary research, but that didn’t stop many other creationists from picking up the claim and repeating it. For a full history of this claim, read the talk.origins knee-joint FAQ file (Lippard 1997).

Creationists rarely address the issue of why australopithecines have a foramen magnum at the bottom of the skull. Gish (1985) criticizes Dart’s reasoning that the Taung baby walked upright, based on the position of its foramen magnum. Gish correctly states that the position of the foramen magnum is closer in juvenile apes and humans than it is in adults (in apes, it moves backwards during growth), and concludes that Dart was unjustified in analyzing this feature on a juvenile skull. This is the same criticism that Dart originally faced from scientists, but Gish fails to mention that later evidence proved Dart’s analysis correct and silenced his critics.

Creationists also rarely mention australopithecine teeth. Gish says that “[Dart] pointed out the many ape-like features of the skull, but believed that some features of the skull, and particularly of the teeth, were man-like”. (Note the misleading implication that the apelike features really exist, while the humanlike ones are a figment of Dart’s imagination.) Gish disputes this, pointing out that the molar teeth of africanus are extremely large. What Gish does not tell readers is that this is one of the few differences between them and human teeth. When the teeth of the Taung child could be properly examined, Dart’s claim was strongly confirmed, and is now generally accepted:

"In fact, though the molars were larger than is now normal, most of the teeth [of the Taung child] could have belonged to a child of today." (Campbell 1988) 

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Xvim wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Xvim wrote:

Wait a minute, BBC, National Geographic, New Scientist… they must all be part of the Church of Evolution?

You got that right.

Tin foil hat time.

I don’t know about the BBC (we could safely speculate though) but the two publications you mention would have no problem whatsoever issuing a statement that they support the hypothesis of evolution. I subscribe to N.G. so I KNOW how they feel on this subject. You don’t think N.G. and N.S. are biased in favor of evolution? If not then tin foil hat time for you, pard.[/quote]

Actually I’m inclined to think they support scientific theory based on the evidence. If that supported the existance of a creator then so be it, but it does not.

[quote]Xvim wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

Also, with such a great track record of “predictions”, if evolutionary science is so accurate, why the hell have they found thousands of fossils and no confirmed intermediate species between man and ape?

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/transitional.html
Go figure, a Christian who disagrees with you on your own terms. [/quote]

Yep. Christians can disagree. What’s new?

Not so much of a conspiracy as a mass consumption of Kool Aid. When lemmings start heading for the cliff they’re not “conspiring”.

Lemmings don’t head for cliffs, that’s a myth popularized by that film of them leaping into the ocean. The camera crew was CHASING them off the cliff for dramatic effect. And you consider Time, Newsweek, BBC, CNN, National Geographic and the like to be ‘lemmings’ but you yourself are not?