Dissecting ID

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
Again, see above cited evolutionist website for the definition of “fact”.

No, creationists cannot “prove” their theories and neither can evolutionists. You might also want to explore the definitions of “theory” and “hypothesis”. Evolution, at best, is a hypothesis, not a good one by any means IMHO.

You assume too much throttle-boy. Did I say I was a creationist? No. You just assumed that because I wasn’t bowing to the western God of science. My point, if you would pull you head out enough to grasp it, was that both camps are exactly the same. Both hypotheses are unproven (in terms of the actual scientific method-which western “science” uses very loosely). As such, both take faith or belief in the institution originating the idea.

My issue is that evolution is taught in western societies as if it is fact and can be proven. No, actually, it is treated as if it has already been proven. And modern evolutionists bend and manipulate scientific rules and principles applying all manner of conjecture and speculation to “prove” their hypotheses.

So do ID or creationists do the same thing? Yes. The difference is that creation is not taught as a fact in public schools or even as a theory.

Both have equal merit and scientific basis (or lack thereof) and should both be treated as equally valid THEORIES!

Lorisco (or do you prefer Lorisco-boy?),

I must have misunderstood your earlier post because I agree with most of what you wrote in this one…After re-reading your early post in light of the second I think I get the picture. Sorry. I thought for some reason that you were trying to defend evolutionism. That’s why it didn’t make sense. Welcome to the table.

[/quote]

Lorisco,

I too misunderstood you. My apologies.

[quote]And modern evolutionists bend and manipulate scientific rules and principles [/quote]and misuse scientific vocabulary [quote]applying all manner of conjecture and speculation to “prove” their hypotheses.[/quote] Boy if that aint the truth! I’ve been saying that over and over again but when you are speaking out against the Church of Darwin in this day and age you’d better be prepared for an onslaught of cries of heresy. Then if you try and attend their church (the classroom) and teach something not sanctioned by their bishops they’ll catch you and drag you out and strap to a stake and light you on fire. (I’m speaking metaphorically here but you get the point)

Intelligent design (ID) is an anti-evolution theory that asserts that intelligent causes are responsible for the origin of the universe and of life in all its diversity.* Advocates of ID maintain that their theory is scientific and provides empirical proof for the existence of God or superintelligent aliens. They believe that design is empirically detectable in nature and in living systems. They claim that intelligent design should be taught in the science classroom because it is an alternative to the scientific theory of natural selection.

The arguments of the ID advocates may seem like a rehash of the creationist arguments, but the defenders of ID claim that they do not reject evolution simply because it does not fit with their understanding of the Bible. However, they present natural selection as implying the universe could not have been designed or created, which is nonsense. To deny that God has the power to create living things using natural selection is to assert something unknowable. It is also inconsistent with the belief in an omnipotent Creator.

One of the early-birds defending ID was UC Berkeley law professor Philip E. Johnson, who seems to have completely misunderstood Darwin’s theory of natural selection as implying (1) God doesn’t exist, (2) natural selection could only have happened randomly and by chance, and (3) whatever happens randomly and by chance cannot be designed by God. None of these beliefs is essential to natural selection. There is no inconsistency in believing in God the Creator of the universe and in natural selection. Natural selection could have been designed by God. Or, natural selection could have occurred even if God did not exist.

Thus, the first of several fallacies committed by ID defenders is the false dilemma. The choice is not either natural selection or design by God or some other superintelligent creatures. God could have designed the universe to produce life by random events following laws of nature. God could have created superintelligent aliens who are experimenting with natural selection. Superintelligent aliens could have evolved by natural selection and then introduced the process on our planet.

There may be another scientific theory that explains living beings and their eco-systems better than natural selection (or intelligent design). The possibilities may not be endless but they are certainly greater than the two considered by ID defenders.

Two scientists often cited by defenders of ID are Michael Behe, author of Darwin’s Black Box (The Free Press, 1996), and William Dembski, author of Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology (Cambridge University Press, 1998). Dembski and Behe are fellows of the Discovery Institute, a Seattle research institute funded largely by Christian foundations. Their arguments are attractive because they are couched in scientific terms and backed by scientific competence.

However, their arguments are identical in function to the creationists’ arguments: rather than provide positive evidence for their own position, they mainly try to find weaknesses in natural selection. As already noted, however, even if their arguments are successful against natural selection, that would not increase the probability of ID.

Behe is an Associate Professor of Biochemistry at Lehigh University (read this disclaimer from his department). Behe’s argument is not essentially about whether evolution occurred, but how it had to have occurred. He claims that he wants to see “real laboratory research on the question of intelligent design.”* Such a desire belies his indifference to the science/metaphysics distinction. There is no lab experiment relevant to determining whether God exists.

In any case, Behe claims that biochemistry reveals a cellular world of such precisely tailored molecules and such staggering complexity that it is not only inexplicable by gradual evolution, but that it can be plausibly explained only by assuming an intelligent designer, i.e., God. Some systems, he thinks, can’t be produced by natural selection because “any precursor to an irreducibly complex system that is missing a part is by definition nonfunctional (39).” He says that a mousetrap is an example of an irreducibly complex system, i.e., all the parts must be there in order for the mousetrap to function.

In short, Behe has old wine in a new skin: the argument from design wrapped in biochemistry. His argument is no more scientific than any other variant of the argument from design. In fact, most scientists, including scientists who are Christians, think Behe should cease patting himself on the back. As with all other such arguments, Behe’s begs the question. He must assume design in order to prove a designer. The consensus seems to be that Behe is a good scientist and writer but a mediocre metaphysician.

His argument hinges upon the notion of “irreducibly complex systems,” systems that could not function if they were missing just one of their many parts. “Irreducibly complex systems … cannot evolve in a Darwinian fashion,” he says, because natural selection works on small mutations in just one component at a time. He then leaps to the conclusion that intelligent design must be responsible for these irreducibly complex systems. Biology professor (and Christian) Kenneth Miller responds:

The multiple parts of complex, interlocking biological systems do not evolve as individual parts, despite Behe's claim that they must. They evolve together, as systems that are gradually expanded, enlarged, and adapted to new purposes. As Richard Dawkins successfully argued in The Blind Watchmaker, natural selection can act on these evolving systems at every step of their transformation.*

Professor Bartelt writes:

if we assume that Behe is correct, and that humans can discern design, then I submit that they can also discern poor design (we sue companies for this all the time!). In Darwin's Black Box, Behe refers to design as the "purposeful arrangement of parts." What about when the "parts" aren't purposeful, by any standard engineering criteria? When confronted with the "All-Thumbs Designer" - whoever designed the spine, the birth canal, the prostate gland, the back of the throat, etc, Behe and the ID people retreat into theology.* [I.e., God can do whatever He wants, or We're not competent to judge intelligence by God's standards, or being an intelligent designer does not mean being a good or perfect designer.]

H. Allen Orr writes:

Behe's colossal mistake is that, in rejecting these possibilities, he concludes that no Darwinian solution remains. But one does. It is this: An irreducibly complex system can be built gradually by adding parts that, while initially just advantageous, become - because of later changes - essential. The logic is very simple. Some part (A) initially does some job (and not very well, perhaps). Another part (B) later gets added because it helps A. This new part isn't essential, it merely improves things. 

But later on, A (or something else) may change in such a way that B now becomes indispensable. This process continues as further parts get folded into the system. And at the end of the day, many parts may all be required.*

Finally, Behe’s argument assumes that natural selection will never be able to account for anything it cannot account for now. This begs the question. In fact, some of the things that Behe and other ID defenders have claimed could not be explained by natural selection have in fact been explained by natural selection (Miller 2004).

Dembski

William Dembski is an associate research professor in the conceptual foundations of science at Baylor University. Until it was abandoned in 2000, he was head of the Michael Polanyi Center for Complexity, Information, and Design at Baylor. In 2004 he accepted an appointment to be the first director of the Center for Science and Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. According to R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the Center for Science and Theology was established as “a representation of our commitment to be very serious about the task of the Christian worldview, its development [and] its application.”*

Dembski’s training is in mathematics, philosophy, and theology. He is also a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute, a Christian think tank devoted largely to debunking evolution. Dembski has written several books attacking evolution and supporting ID. Even his critics admit that his books are “generally well written and packed with provocative ideas.”* He claims that he can prove that it is highly improbable that life and the universe happened by chance and by natural processes; they are most likely the result of intelligent design by God.

He also claims that “the conceptual soundness of a scientific theory cannot be maintained apart from Christ (Intelligent Design: The Bridge between Science and Theology, 1998, p. 209),” a claim which belies his metaphysical bias.

His basic argument is that some things could not have been produced by chance. He believes that an object must be the product of intelligent design if it shows ?specified complexity.? If you came home and found “I love you” spelled out in potato chips on the couch, the probability of something so specific and complex being the result of chance is nearly zero. Dembski thinks some things in nature clearly demonstrate specified complexity, e.g., the eye. A similar argument was made by William Paley (1743-1805), the Archdeacon of Carlisle, in his Natural Theology (1802). It is true that Darwin himself admitted that it seems absurd to suppose that

the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection....

However, he reasoned that

if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real.

Science has proved Darwin right (Patterson 2002). We now know that the vision system consists of many different components that perform specialized tasks such as detecting edges or motion. The optic nerve takes two pathways to the brain and one obviously evolved much earlier than the other. Different kinds of visual systems have evolved at different times in different species. All these systems could have been produced by an intelligent designer but none of them requires one. Numerous gradual changes and adaptations are sufficient to explain even the most complex visual system.

Dembski also uses a number of mathematical notions to debunk evolution. “In 2002, he focused on so-called No Free Lunch, or N.F.L., theorems, which were derived in the late nineties by the physicists David H. Wolpert and William G. Macready.”* Since most of us are innumerate, the arguments may seem dazzling. However, as H. Allen Orr notes: “Despite all the attention, Dembski?s mathematical claims about design and Darwin are almost entirely beside the point.”*

The most serious problem in Dembski?s account involves specified complexity. Organisms aren?t trying to match any ?independently given pattern?: evolution has no goal, and the history of life isn?t trying to get anywhere. If building a sophisticated structure like an eye increases the number of children produced, evolution may well build an eye. But if destroying a sophisticated structure like the eye increases the number of children produced, evolution will just as happily destroy the eye. 

Species of fish and crustaceans that have moved into the total darkness of caves, where eyes are both unnecessary and costly, often have degenerate eyes, or eyes that begin to form only to be covered by skin?crazy contraptions that no intelligent agent would design. Despite all the loose talk about design and machines, organisms aren?t striving to realize some engineer?s blueprint; they?re striving (if they can be said to strive at all) only to have more offspring than the next fellow.

Another problem with Dembski?s arguments concerns the N.F.L. theorems. Recent work shows that these theorems don?t hold in the case of co-evolution, when two or more species evolve in response to one another. And most evolution is surely co-evolution. Organisms do not spend most of their time adapting to rocks; they are perpetually challenged by, and adapting to, a rapidly changing suite of viruses, parasites, predators, and prey. A theorem that doesn?t apply to these situations is a theorem whose relevance to biology is unclear. 

As it happens, David Wolpert, one of the authors of the N.F.L. theorems, recently denounced Dembski?s use of those theorems as ?fatally informal and imprecise.? Dembski?s apparent response has been a tactical retreat. In 2002, Dembski triumphantly proclaimed, ?The No Free Lunch theorems dash any hope of generating specified complexity via evolutionary algorithms.? Now he says, ?I certainly never argued that the N.F.L. theorems provide a direct refutation of Darwinism.? (Orr 2005)

According to another critic - physicist Vic Stenger (“The Emperor’s New Designer Clothes”) - Dembski uses math and logic to derive what he calls the law of conservation of information. “He argues that the information contained in living structures cannot be generated by any combination of chance and natural processes…Dembski’s law of conservation of information is nothing more than “conservation of entropy,” a special case of the second law [of thermodynamics] that applies when no dissipative processes such as friction are present.” However, the fact is that “entropy is created naturally a thousand times a day by every person on Earth. Each time any friction is generated, information is lost.”

As H. Allen Orr writes:

In the end, it?s hard to view intelligent design as a coherent movement in any but a political sense.

It?s also hard to view it as a real research program. Though people often picture science as a collection of clever theories, scientists are generally staunch pragmatists: to scientists, a good theory is one that inspires new experiments and provides unexpected insights into familiar phenomena. By this standard, Darwinism is one of the best theories in the history of science: it has produced countless important experiments (let?s re-create a natural species in the lab?yes, that?s been done) and sudden insight into once puzzling patterns (that?s why there are no native land mammals on oceanic islands). 

In the nearly ten years since the publication of Behe?s book, by contrast, I.D. has inspired no nontrivial experiments and has provided no surprising insights into biology. As the years pass, intelligent design looks less and less like the science it claimed to be and more and more like an extended exercise in polemics. (Orr 2005)

pseudoscience

ID isn’t a scientific theory and it isn’t an alternative to natural selection or any other scientific theory. The universe would appear the same to us whether it was designed by God or not. Scientific theories are about how the world appears to us and have no business positing why the world appears this way, or that it is probably designed because of how unlikely it is that this or that happened by chance. That is the business of metaphysics. ID is not a scientific theory, but a metaphysical theory. The fact that it has empirical content doesn’t make it any more scientific than, say, Spinoza’s metaphysics or so-called creation science.

ID is a pseudoscience because it claims to be scientific but is in fact metaphysical. It is based on several philosophical confusions, not the least of which is the notion that the empirical is necessarily scientific. This is false, if by ‘empirical’ one means originating in or based on observation or experience. Empirical theories can be scientific or non-scientific.

Freud’s theory of the Oedipus complex is empirical but it is not scientific. Jung’s theory of the collective unconscious is empirical but it is not scientific. Biblical creationism is empirical but it is not scientific. Poetry can be empirical but not scientific.

On the other hand, if by ‘empirical’ one means capable of being confirmed or disproved by observation or experiment then ID is not empirical. Neither the whole of nature nor an individual eco-system can be proved or disproved by any set of observations to be intelligently designed. A design theory and a natural law theory that makes no reference to design can account for Nature as a whole and for individual eco-systems.

Science does have some metaphysical assumptions, not the least of which is that the universe follows laws. But science leaves open the question of whether those laws were designed. That is a metaphysical question. Believing the universe or some part of it was designed or not does not help understand how it works. If I ever answer an empirical question with the answer “because God [or superintelligent aliens, otherwise undetectable] made it that way” then I have left the realm of science and entered the realm of metaphysics.

Of course scientists have metaphysical beliefs but those beliefs are irrelevant to strictly scientific explanations. Science is open to both theists and atheists alike.

If we grant that the universe is possibly or even probably the result of intelligent design, what is the next step? For example, assume a particular eco-system is the creation of an intelligent designer. Unless this intelligent designer is one of us, i.e., human, and unless we have some experience with the creations of this and similar designers, how could we proceed to study this system? If all we know is that it is the result of ID but that the designer is of a different order of being than we are, how would we proceed to study this system?

It is presumptuous to assume that an intelligent designer would create an eye the way a human engineer would design a similar system with a similar function. By appealing to an “intelligent designer” to explain some complex phenomenon is to explain nothing about that phenomenon’s relation to its alleged designer. The theory illuminates nothing.

The ID proponents are fighting a battle that was lost in the 17th century: the battle for understanding nature in terms of final causes and efficient causes. Prior to the 17th century, there was no essential conflict between a mechanistic view of nature and a teleological view, between a naturalistic and a supernaturalistic view of nature. Nature could be thought of as a vast purposive mechanism. With the notable exception of Leibniz and his intellectual descendents, just about everyone else gave up the idea of scientific explanations needing to include theological ones. Scientific progress became possible in part because scientists attempted to describe the workings of natural phenomena without reference to their creation, design, or ultimate purpose.

God may well have created the universe and the laws of nature, but nature is still a machine, mechanically changing and comprehensible as such. God became an unnecessary hypothesis. Or, if one couldn’t live without God, one could identify God with Nature, as Spinoza did, and argue that belief in final causes or purposes in nature is demeaning to God and the height of folly for man.*

should ID be taught in public schools?

Ever since the failure of the creation science movement, a number of activists?many of them young-Earth Christians?have been trying to discredit evolution by claiming that ID is a scientific alternative to Darwinism. These people, led by Phillip Johnson and the folks at the Discovery Institute, have been very successful in convincing member of the media, politicians, school boards, and the general public (scientifically illiterate as it is*) that the theory of evolution is a “theory in crisis” and that ID is a viable alternative.* These two claims might well be called the ID twin towers.

Neither of these claims is true but it doesn’t matter at this point because they are so widely believed that we must still ask whether ID should be taught in our biology classrooms. There is also much hypocrisy and deceit in a movement that does not refer to God in published documents as the intelligent designer, but opens its public presentations with a Christian prayer and doesn’t hesitate to refer to God when alternatives such as aliens as the designers are brought up.* Dembski puts it this way:

Intelligent design is a modest position theologically and philosophically. It attributes the complexity and diversity of life to intelligence, but does not identify that intelligence with the God of any religious faith or philosophical system. The task for the Christian who accepts intelligent design is therefore to formulate a theology of nature and creation that makes sense of intelligent design in light of one?s Christian faith.*

In other words, you Christians know who the intelligent designer is even though we don’t mention Him by name!

As evidence of how widespread the belief is in the ID twin towers consider that the President of the United States (who has probably never even heard of Behe or Dembski, much less read anything by them*) has stated publicly that ID should be taught in our schools.* The National Science Teachers Association (NSTA), the world’s largest organization of science educators, issued a press release saying it was “stunned and disappointed that President Bush is endorsing the teaching of intelligent design – effectively opening the door for non-scientific ideas to be taught in the nation’s K-12 science classrooms.”* I understand why the teachers are disappointed but they shouldn’t be stunned.

President Bush’s opinion is shared by millions of Americans. According to a recent Harris poll, only 12% of Americans think evolution should be taught to the exclusion of creationism and ID.* In any case, John Marburger, the president’s science advisor, clarified Bush’s remarks by telling the press that ?evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology? and ‘‘intelligent design is not a scientific concept.’’ He said it would be over-interpreting Bush?s comments to interpret them to mean that the president thinks intelligent design should be placed on an equal footing with evolution. “If such things are to be taught in the public schools,” said Marburger, “they belong in a course on comparative religion, which is a particularly appropriate subject for our children given the present state of the world.”*

Bush’s comments gave the media an excuse to jump into the fray. The August 15, 2005, cover of Time magazine, for example, has Michelangelo’s Sistine chapel creator pointing the finger at a chimp. Does God have a place in the science classroom? asks Time. The article provides an overview of the controversy with a nice map of the antievolution proposals that have been put forth in this century by state boards of education, state legislatures, and local boards of education. Very few states are unblemished.

Jake Tapper, an ABC news reporter, recently stated while doing a story on a young-Earth theme park in Kentucky: “Religious views of creation that challenge accepted science are gaining support across the country.” Others in the media often refer to ID as a growing new challenge to a faltering Darwinism.*

A number of state and local school boards have brought ID into their classrooms. In 1999, the Kansas Board of Education rejected evolution as a scientific principle. The 10-member board voted six to four to eliminate evolution from the science curricula.

The Kansas Board did not ban the teaching of evolution. Only the legislature has that kind of power. The Board simply deleted any mention of evolution and the Big Bang theory from the science curriculum and from the materials used to test graduating students. Creationists such as Board Member Steve Abrams, a former head of the state Republican Party, hailed the decision as a victory in the war against evolutionists. Creationists want children to believe that God made them and every other species individually for a purpose. They do not want children to think that a divine power might be behind the Big Bang or evolution of species because that opens the possibility that God might not exist.

Creationism maintains that God created everything, a belief that leaves no room for an explanation of the existence and nature of things without reference to God. Abrams wanted to add to the science curriculum standards the assertion that “the design and complexity of the design of the cosmos requires an intelligent designer,” but his circular reasoning was voted down.

Nevertheless, the Kansas Board recognized micro-evolution - natural selection within a species - as a fact. Perhaps the six who voted for the new standards do not understand that natural selection within species was what stimulated Darwin to his general theory of evolution. Nor do they seem to understand that you can’t have a theory of evolution without the fact of evolution (any more than you could have a theory of planetary motion without the fact of planetary motion). Scientific theories are explanations as to how things happen. You don’t try to explain how something happened unless it happened. Natural selection is one theory as to how evolution happened. It assumes evolution is a fact.

In 2002 an election returned a majority to the Kansas state board of education who were in favor of teaching just science in the biology classroom. In 2004 another election has tipped the scales back in favor of the ID folks. The new group called for hearings to decide whether ID would be taught. The hearings were boycotted by the scientific community, party because they felt the board had already made up its mind about ID and evolution, and partly because they did not want to convey the appearance of scientific legitimacy on the ID movement.

On August 9, 2005, the Kansas State Board of Education voted 6-4 in favor of new state science standards composed with the aid of a local “intelligent design” group, the Intelligent Design Network, that “systematically deprecates the scientific status of evolution.”* It remains to be seen whether the proposed standards will be approved.

Politically active creationists failed in their attempts to have creationism taught alongside evolution as a science. The Supreme Court ruled that compelling the teaching of creationism was tantamount to teaching religion, which state schools may not do under the First Amendment separation clause. The so-called creation science movement, however, is not dead. They have just changed tactics. The goal now is to debunk evolution wherever possible, using any means necessary. One of their favorite tactics today is to blame all sin and crime on lack of proper Bible study and the teaching of “godless” theories such as natural selection and the Big Bang theory. Marc Looy of the creationist group Answers in Genesis hailed the Kansas school board decision because

students in public schools are being taught that evolution is a fact, that they're just products of survival of the fittest....It creates a sense of purposelessness and hopelessness, which I think leads to things like pain, murder, and suicide.

That there is no scientific evidence to support these claims is a matter of indifference to those who believe them.

In Alabama, biology textbooks carry a warning that says that evolution is “a controversial theory some scientists present as a scientific explanation for the origin of living things. . . .No one was present when life first appeared on earth. Therefore, any statement about life’s origins should be considered as theory, not fact.” Right. In Alabama, I guess, if you wake up to snow on the ground, but no one saw it snowing, then you may only propose a theory as to the origin of the snow. The great state of Alabama apparently is banking on their students being too dumb to recognize language that tries to deceive and manipulate them.

The school board in Cobb County, Georgia, was perhaps inspired by Alabama. In 2003, the board claimed it was just encouraging critical thinking when it required a sticker be placed in all biology texts that states:

This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered.

Six parents and the American Civil Liberties Union filed a federal lawsuit against the Cobb County school board over the disclaimer stickers. In August 2005, U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper ordered the school system to remove the stickers. The disclaimers, ruled Judge Cooper, are an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.

By denigrating evolution, the school board appears to be endorsing the well-known prevailing alternative theory, creationism or variations thereof, even though the sticker does not specifically reference any alternative theories.

The school board issued a statement indicating that they just don’t get it.

The textbook stickers are a reasonable and evenhanded guide to science instruction and encouraging students to be critical thinkers.

The plaintiffs had argued that the disclaimers violated the separation of church and state and unfairly singled out evolution from all other scientific theories as suspect.

Judge Cooper wisely stated in his decision

While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community.

It certainly does. There are no stickers in the physics or chemistry books. There are none in the social science books. The only theory singled out by the school board is evolution and the reason was obvious to the judge: the theory of evolution is understood as implying that God didn’t make the species one by one and that God isn’t even necessary for making any species at all. If evolution is correct, the school board members and the thousands of parents (2,300, to be exact) who support them believe that then their religious views are wrong. Accepting evolution is as much as accepting atheism.

It is the same as believing we have no souls and are nothing but material beings with no possibility of an afterlife. According to recent polls, about 35% of Americans believe that evolution implies no God, no soul, no afterlife, no truth in the Bible. (Other polls put the number as high as 55%. I suspect the different result is due to the way the questions were asked and the kind of responses allowed.) A 2005 national survey by the Harris polling agency found that 54% say they do not believe humans evolved from earlier species, while 64% believe that human beings were created directly by God.

As a result of the decision in the Cobb country case, the school district in Beebe, Arkansas - at the urging of the American Civil Liberties Union - removed stickers they had ordered to be placed in science textbooks ten or fifteen years earlier. The stickers described evolution as “controversial” and mentioned an “intelligent designer” as a possible explanation for the origin of life. Authorities in Alabama, however, did not follow suit. They claimed they didn’t see how the ruling in Georgia applied to them.

On March 9, 2004, the Ohio state board of education approved by a 13-5 margin what it called a “Critical Analysis of Evolution” plan. An early draft of the plan made an explicit reference to Icons of Evolution by Jonathan Wells, a senior fellow at the Discovery Institute. The final plan made no mention of Wells or his book, but critics of the plan said it contained many of the concepts in Icons. Defenders of the decision call it a victory for common sense over scientific dogmatism.

In reality, it is a victory for those who would have politicians deciding what is proper science. The first question in the “student reflection” portion of the “Critical Analysis of Evolution” is “Why is it important for scientists to critically analyze evolution?” We call this a loaded question in my critical thinking classes. The question assumes that most scientists haven’t or don’t critically analyze evolution, or that they don’t realize it is important to do so. It assumes that scientists need to be reminded of both the question and its importance. To provide students with a lesson plan that implies that scientists have put forth their views on evolution without critical analysis would be ludicrous if it weren’t so dangerous.

Bettysue Feuer, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League, noted that the wedge document is at work here. If you teach that there is a controversy over evolution, intelligent design advocates get their foot in the door, and can push their religious agenda.

In Missouri Rep. Wayne Cooper sponsored legislation calling for the teaching of intelligent design alongside evolution in public elementary and secondary schools. Said Cooper: “We just want people to quit passing on their philosophic bias as though it is the truth when it’s not proven.” He also asserted: “If we’re just a piece of matter in a meaningless universe, you’re going to treat yourself different than if you’re a designed product.”

Call me old-fashioned but I can’t think of anything more degrading that being a piece of matter designed to fulfill some divine being’s plan. I don’t have quite the admiration Mr. Cooper does for the idea of being created to worship and obey a master. This might give his life meaning but it seems demeaning to me.

And, if we are going to allow the Christian version of intelligent design to be taught in our science classrooms, to be fair we should also allow the atheistic Raelians have their say. The following is from a press release from that group:

His Holiness Rael draws the exceptional accuracy of his scientific and humanitarian vision from the Message He received in 1973 from the Elohim, a very advanced race of human beings from a distant planet within our galaxy. The Elohim created all life on Earth scientifically using DNA (including humans in their image) and were mistaken for God, which explains why the name Elohim is present in all original Bibles. The Bible is, in fact, an atheist book describing the scientific creation of life on Earth. The new concept of "Intelligent Design" fits perfectly with this explanation of our origins.

Thirty years ago the Elohim explained to Rael that human cloning coupled with memory transfer would one day allow humans to live forever on Earth. Today this prediction is close to becoming a reality, as it has been for millennia on the Elohim’s planet. It is, in fact, how the Elohim resurrected Jesus, their messenger, as well as many others whom they sent to guide humanity and who now live on their planet.

A “critical analysis” of evolution shouldn’t exclude Rael’s vision, especially since the master himself thinks ID fits with his godless religion and an atheistic Bible. That’s certainly an “alternative” viewpoint that you won’t find in most science texts. What are the odds that Ohio?or any other state?will include it or other alternatives in a “Critical Analysis of Evolution” plan?

In October, 2004, the Dover Area School Board in York, Pennsylvania, voted 6-3 to add ID to the district?s biology curriculum. One Dover board member resigned in tears after the vote, saying she was tired of being asked if she was “born again.” Only one community member spoke in favor of the ID proposal and he home-schools his kids. William Buckingham, one of the board members who led the fight for ID inclusion in the biology curriculum, was reported in the local newspaper as having “challenged people?s literacy, knowledge of American history and patriotism throughout the night.”

The following month the school district chose four new board members (from 13 candidates): “a preacher, a home-schooler who doesn’t send his kids to public school because of his religious beliefs, and two others with barely any experience in government.” No one who spoke out against intelligent design was selected.

Also, the local school board announced in Blufton, Indiana, that intelligent design will continue to be a part of Bluffton-Harrison?s High School science curriculum. The school board voted 4-1 to continue requiring the district?s science educators to discuss ?appropriate theories? ? such as intelligent design and evolution ? and give a ?fair and balanced? presentation when teaching about the origin of the universe and life. The Discovery Institute folks must be smiling: an issue that has nothing to do with balance and fairness has been turned into a fairness issue.

So, the question must be asked: Should we teach ID in our biology classrooms even though ID is not a viable alternative to natural selection? The answer is “yes, if we teach ID properly.” The answer is “no” if we are asked to teach ID as a viable scientific theory worth spending precious classroom time on. To teach ID properly would be to demonstrate to the students that nothing of scientific interest follows after one posits an external agent to explain something. To say the eye was designed by God or an alien race is to say: Stop, go no further in trying to understand this.

Students might be taught that ID is just the kind of theory that some philosophers and theologians find interesting but since it doesn’t lead to any deeper understanding of biological mechanisms, doesn’t lead to new discoveries or research ventures, and doesn’t have any practical scientific applications, it is left to those in other fields to pursue. A good biology teacher ought to be able to explain why ID, even if true, is of little scientific interest in about 15 or 20 minutes. That should leave plenty of time for them to instruct their students in science.

The generally accepted age for the Earth and the rest of the solar system is about 4.55 billion years (plus or minus about 1%). This value is derived from several different lines of evidence.

Unfortunately, the age cannot be computed directly from material that is solely from the Earth. There is evidence that energy from the Earth’s accumulation caused the surface to be molten. Further, the processes of erosion and crustal recycling have apparently destroyed all of the earliest surface.

The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are themselves as old as 4.1 to 4.2 billion years. Rocks of this age are relatively rare, however rocks that are at least 3.5 billion years in age have been found on North America, Greenland, Australia, Africa, and Asia.

While these values do not compute an age for the Earth, they do establish a lower limit (the Earth must be at least as old as any formation on it). This lower limit is at least concordant with the independently derived figure of 4.55 billion years for the Earth’s actual age.

The most direct means for calculating the Earth’s age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the Earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-207/Pb-204.

If the solar system formed from a common pool of matter, which was uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall on a single point.

Over time, the amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of uranium decay (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207). This causes the data points to separate from each other. The higher the uranium-to-lead ratio of a rock, the more the Pb-206/Pb-204 and Pb-207/Pb-204 values will change with time.

If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed with respect to uranium isotope ratios, then the data points will always fall on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can compute the amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became separated into individual objects. See the Isochron Dating FAQ or Faure (1986, chapter 18) for technical detail.

A young-Earther would object to all of the “assumptions” listed above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data points to fall on a line.

Most of the other measurements for the age of the Earth rest upon calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are expected to have formed with the planets but are not geologically active (and therefore cannot erase evidence of their formation), such as meteorites. Below is a table of radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites:
Type Number
Dated Method Age (billions
of years)
Chondrites (CM, CV, H, L, LL, E) 13 Sm-Nd 4.21 +/- 0.76
Carbonaceous chondrites 4 Rb-Sr 4.37 +/- 0.34
Chondrites (undisturbed H, LL, E) 38 Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.02
Chondrites (H, L, LL, E) 50 Rb-Sr 4.43 +/- 0.04
H Chondrites (undisturbed) 17 Rb-Sr 4.52 +/- 0.04
H Chondrites 15 Rb-Sr 4.59 +/- 0.06
L Chondrites (relatively undisturbed) 6 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.12
L Chondrites 5 Rb-Sr 4.38 +/- 0.12
LL Chondrites (undisturbed) 13 Rb-Sr 4.49 +/- 0.02
LL Chondrites 10 Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.06
E Chondrites (undisturbed) 8 Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.04
E Chondrites 8 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.13
Eucrites (polymict) 23 Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.19
Eucrites 11 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.30
Eucrites 13 Lu-Hf 4.57 +/- 0.19
Diogenites 5 Rb-Sr 4.45 +/- 0.18
Iron (plus iron from St. Severin) 8 Re-Os 4.57 +/- 0.21
After Dalrymple (1991, p. 291); duplicate studies on identical meteorite types omitted.

As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on about 4.5 billion years, between several meteorites and by several different dating methods. Note that young-Earthers cannot accuse us of selective use of data – the above table includes a significant fraction of all meteorites on which isotope dating has been attempted. According to Dalrymple (1991, p. 286) , less than 100 meteorites have been subjected to isotope dating, and of those about 70 yield ages with low analytical error.

Further, the oldest age determinations of individual meteorites generally give concordant ages by multiple radiometric means, or multiple tests across different samples. For example:
Meteorite Dated Method Age (billions
of years)
Allende whole rock Ar-Ar 4.52 +/- 0.02

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.53 +/- 0.02

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.48 +/- 0.02

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.55 +/- 0.03

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.55 +/- 0.03

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.57 +/- 0.03

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.50 +/- 0.02

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.56 +/- 0.05

Guarena whole rock Ar-Ar 4.44 +/- 0.06

13 samples 	Rb-Sr 	4.46 +/- 0.08

Shaw whole rock Ar-Ar 4.43 +/- 0.06

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.40 +/- 0.06

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.29 +/- 0.06

Olivenza 18 samples Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.16

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.49 +/- 0.06

Saint Severin 4 samples Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.33

10 samples 	Rb-Sr 	4.51 +/- 0.15

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.43 +/- 0.04

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.38 +/- 0.04

whole rock 	Ar-Ar 	4.42 +/- 0.04

Indarch 9 samples Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.08

12 samples 	Rb-Sr 	4.39 +/- 0.04

Juvinas 5 samples Sm-Nd 4.56 +/- 0.08

5 samples 	Rb-Sr 	4.50 +/- 0.07

Moama 3 samples Sm-Nd 4.46 +/- 0.03

4 samples 	Sm-Nd 	4.52 +/- 0.05

Y-75011 9 samples Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.05

7 samples 	Sm-Nd 	4.52 +/- 0.16

5 samples 	Rb-Sr 	4.46 +/- 0.06

4 samples 	Sm-Nd 	4.52 +/- 0.33

Angra dos Reis 7 samples Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.04

3 samples 	Sm-Nd 	4.56 +/- 0.04

Mundrabrilla silicates Ar-Ar 4.50 +/- 0.06

silicates 	Ar-Ar 	4.57 +/- 0.06

olivine 	Ar-Ar 	4.54 +/- 0.04

plagioclase 	Ar-Ar 	4.50 +/- 0.04

Weekeroo Station 4 samples Rb-Sr 4.39 +/- 0.07

silicates 	Ar-Ar 	4.54 +/- 0.03

After Dalrymple (1991, p. 286); meteorites dated by only a single means omitted.

Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly by Rb-Sr dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are in exact agreement with the solar system “model lead age” produced earlier.
Common Young-Earth “Dating Methods”

Young-Earthers have several methods which they claim to give “upper limits” to the age of the Earth, much lower than the age calculated above (usually in the thousands of years). Those which appear the most frequently in talk.origins are reproduced below:

  1. Accumulation of helium in the atmosphere
  2. Decay of the Earth’s magnetic field
  3. Accumulation of meteoritic dust on the Moon
  4. Accumulation of metals into the oceans

Note that these aren’t necessarily the “best” or most difficult to refute of young-Earth arguments. However, they are quite popular in modern creation-“science” literature (even though they should not be!) and they are historically the ones posted to talk.origins more than any others.

  1. Accumulation of Helium in the atmosphere

The young-Earth argument goes something like this: helium-4 is created by radioactive decay (alpha particles are helium nuclei) and is constantly added to the atmosphere. Helium is not light enough to escape the Earth’s gravity (unlike hydrogen), and it will therefore accumulate over time. The current level of helium in the atmosphere would accumulate in less than two hundred thousand years, therefore the Earth is young. (I believe this argument was originally put forth by Mormon young-Earther Melvin Cook, in a letter to the editor which was published in Nature.)

But helium can and does escape from the atmosphere, at rates calculated to be nearly identical to rates of production. In order to obtain a young age from their calculations, young-Earthers handwave away mechanisms by which helium can escape. For example, Henry Morris says:

"There is no evidence at all that Helium 4 either does, or can, escape from the exosphere in significant amounts." ( Morris 1974, p. 151 )

But Morris is wrong. Surely one cannot “invent” a good dating mechanism by simply ignoring processes which work in the opposite direction of the process which the date is based upon. Dalrymple says:

"Banks and Holzer (12) have shown that the polar wind can account for an escape of (2 to 4) x 106 ions/cm2 /sec of 4He, which is nearly identical to the estimated production flux of (2.5 +/- 1.5) x 106 atoms/cm2/sec. Calculations for 3He lead to similar results, i.e., a rate virtually identical to the estimated production flux. Another possible escape mechanism is direct interaction of the solar wind with the upper atmosphere during the short periods of lower magnetic-field intensity while the field is reversing. Sheldon and Kern (112) estimated that 20 geomagnetic-field reversals over the past 3.5 million years would have assured a balance between helium production and loss." ( Dalrymple 1984, p. 112 )

Dalrymple’s references:

* (12) Banks, P. M. & T. E. Holzer. 1969. "High-latitude plasma transport: the polar wind" in Journal of Geophysical Research 74, pp. 6317-6332.
* (112) Sheldon, W. R. & J. W. Kern. 1972. "Atmospheric helium and geomagnetic field reversals" in Journal of Geophysical Research 77, pp. 6194-6201.

This argument also appears in the following creationist literature:

Baker (1976, pp. 25-26)
Brown (1989, pp. 16 and 52)
Jansma (1985, p. 61)
Whitcomb and Morris (1961, pp. 384-385)
Wysong (1976, pp. 161-163)
  1. Decay of the Earth’s magnetic field

The young-Earth argument: the dipole component of the magnetic field has decreased slightly over the time that it has been measured. Assuming the generally accepted “dynamo theory” for the existence of the Earth’s magnetic field is wrong, the mechanism might instead be an initially created field which has been losing strength ever since the creation event. An exponential fit (assuming a half-life of 1400 years on 130 years’ worth of measurements) yields an impossibly high magnetic field even 8000 years ago, therefore the Earth must be young. The main proponent of this argument was Thomas Barnes.

There are several things wrong with this “dating” mechanism. It’s hard to just list them all. The primary four are:

  1. While there is no complete model to the geodynamo (certain key properties of the core are unknown), there are reasonable starts and there are no good reasons for rejecting such an entity out of hand. If it is possible for energy to be added to the field, then the extrapolation is useless.

  2. There is overwhelming evidence that the magnetic field has reversed itself, rendering any unidirectional extrapolation on total energy useless. Even some young-Earthers admit to that these days – e.g., Humphreys (1988).

  3. Much of the energy in the field is almost certainly not even visible external to the core. This means that the extrapolation rests on the assumption that fluctuations in the observable portion of the field accurately represent fluctuations in its total energy.

  4. Barnes’ extrapolation completely ignores the nondipole component of the field. Even if we grant that it is permissible to ignore portions of the field that are internal to the core, Barnes’ extrapolation also ignores portions of the field which are visible and instead rests on extrapolation of a theoretical entity.

That last part is more important than it may sound. The Earth’s magnetic field is often split in two components when measured. The “dipole” component is the part which approximates a theoretically perfect field around a single magnet, and the “nondipole” components are the (“messy”) remainder. A study in the 1960s showed that the decrease in the dipole component since the turn of the century had been nearly completely compensated by an increase in the strength of the nondipole components of the field. (In other words, the measurements show that the field has been diverging from the shape that would be expected of a theoretical ideal magnet, more than the amount of energy has actually been changing.) Barnes’ extrapolation therefore does not really rest on the change in energy of the field.

For information, see Dalrymple (1984, pp. 106-108) or Strahler (1987, pp. 150-155) .

This argument also appears in the following creationist literature:

Baker (1976, p. 25)
Brown (1989, pp. 17 and 53)
Jackson (1989, pp. 37-38)
Jansma (1985, pp. 61-62)
Morris (1974, pp. 157-158)
Wysong (1976, pp. 160-161)
  1. Accumulation of meteoritic dust on the Moon

The most common form of this young-Earth argument is based on a single measurement of the rate of meteoritic dust influx to the Earth gave a value in the millions of tons per year. While this is negligible compared to the processes of erosion on the Earth (about a shoebox-full of dust per acre per year), there are no such processes on the Moon. Young-Earthers claim that the Moon must receive a similar amount of dust (perhaps 25% as much per unit surface area due to its lesser gravity), and there should be a very large dust layer (about a hundred feet thick) if the Moon is several billion years old.

Morris says, regarding the dust influx rate:

"The best measurements have been made by Hans Pettersson, who obtained the figure of 14 million tons per year1."
Morris (1974, p. 152) [italic emphasis added -CS]

Pettersson stood on a mountain top and collected dust there with a device intended for measuring smog levels. He measured the amount of nickel collected, and published calculations based on the assumption that all nickel that he collected was meteoritic in origin. That assumption was wrong and caused his published figures to be a vast overestimate.

Pettersson’s calculation resulted in the a figure of about 15 million tons per year. In the very same paper, he indicated that he believed that value to be a “generous” over-estimate, and said that 5 million tons per year was a more likely figure.

Several measurements of higher precision were available from many sources by the time Morris wrote Scientific Creationism. These measurements give the value (for influx rate to the Earth) of about 20,000 to 40,000 tons per year. Multiple measurements (chemical signature of ocean sediments, satellite penetration detectors, microcratering rate of objects left exposed on the lunar surface) all agree on approximately the same value – nearly three orders of magnitude lower than the value which Morris chose to use.

Morris chose to pick obsolete data with known problems, and call it the “best” measurement available. With the proper values, the expected depth of meteoritic dust on the Moon is less than one foot.

For further information, see Dalrymple (1984, pp. 108-111) or Strahler (1987, pp. 143-144) .
Addendum: “loose dust” vs. “meteoritic material”

Some folks in talk.origins occasionally sow further confusion by discussing the thickness of the “lunar soil” as if it represented the entire quantity of meteoritic material on the lunar surface. The lunar soil is a very thin layer (usually an inch or less) of loose powder present on the surface of the Moon.

However, the lunar soil is not the only meteoritic material on the lunar surface. The “soil” is merely the portion of powdery material which is kept loose by micrometeorite impacts. Below it is the regolith, which is a mixture of rock fragments and packed powdery material. The regolith averages about five meters deep on the lunar maria and ten meters on the lunar highlands.

In addition, lunar rocks are broken down by various processes (such as micrometeorite impacts and radiation). Quite a bit of the powdered material (even the loose portion) is not meteoritic in origin.
Addendum: Creationists disown the “Moon dust” argument

There is a recent creationist technical paper on this topic which admits that the depth of dust on the Moon is concordant with the mainstream age and history of the solar system. In the Abstract, Snelling and Rush (1993) conclude with:

"It thus appears that the amount of meteoritic dust and meteorite debris in the lunar regolith and surface dust layer, even taking into account the postulated early intense bombardment, does not contradict the evolutionists' multi-billion year timescale (while not proving it). Unfortunately, attempted counter-responses by creationists have so far failed because of spurious arguments or faulty calculations. Thus, until new evidence is forthcoming, creationists should not continue to use the dust on the moon as evidence against an old age for the moon and the solar system."

Snelling and Rush’s paper also refutes the oft-posted creationist “myth” about the expectation of a thick dust layer during to the Apollo mission. The Apollo mission had been preceded by several unmanned landings – the Soviet Luna (six landers), American Ranger (five landers) and Surveyor (seven landers) series. The physical properties of the lunar surface were well-known years before man set foot on it.

Further, even prior to the unmanned landings mentioned above, Snelling and Rush document that there was no clear consensus in the astronomical community on the depth of dust to expect. So those making the argument do not even have the excuse that such an consensus existed prior to the unmanned landings.

Even though the creationists themselves have refuted this argument, (and refutations from the mainstream community have been around for ten to twenty years longer than that), the “Moon dust” argument continues to be propagated in their “popular” literature, and continues to appear in talk.origins on a regular basis:

Baker (1976, p. 25)
Brown (1989, pp. 17 and 53)
Jackson (1989, pp. 40-41)
Jansma (1985, pp. 62-63)
Whitcomb and Morris (1961, pp. 379-380)
Wysong (1976, pp. 166-168)

See the talkorigins.org archived feedback for February and April 1997, for additional examples.
  1. Accumulation of metals into the oceans

In 1965, Chemical Oceanography published a list of some metals’ “residency times” in the ocean. This calculation was performed by dividing the amount of various metals in the oceans by the rate at which rivers bring the metals into the oceans.

Several creationists have reproduced this table of numbers, claiming that these numbers gave “upper limits” for the age of the oceans (therefore the Earth) because the numbers represented the amount of time that it would take for the oceans to “fill up” to their present level of these various metals from zero.

First, let us examine the results of this “dating method.” Most creationist works do not produce all of the numbers, only the ones whose values are “convenient.” The following list is more complete:

Al - 100 years Ni - 9,000 years Sb - 350,000 years
Fe - 140 years Co - 18,000 years Mo - 500,000 years
Ti - 160 years Hg - 42,000 years Au - 560,000 years
Cr - 350 years Bi - 45,000 years Ag - 2,100,000 years
Th - 350 years Cu - 50,000 years K - 11,000,000 years
Mn - 1,400 years Ba - 84,000 years Sr - 19,000,000 years
W - 1,000 years Sn - 100,000 years Li - 20,000,000 years
Pb - 2,000 years Zn - 180,000 years Mg - 45,000,000 years
Si - 8,000 years Rb - 270,000 years Na - 260,000,000 years

Now, let us critically examine this method as a method of finding an age for the Earth.

* The method ignores known mechanisms which remove metals from the oceans:

      o Many of the listed metals are in fact known to be at or near equilibrium; that is, the rates for their entering and leaving the ocean are the same to within uncertainty of measurement. (Some of the chemistry of the ocean floor is not well-understood, which unfortunately leaves a fairly large uncertainty.) One cannot derive a date from a process where equilibrium is within the range of uncertainty -- it could go on forever without changing concentration of the ocean.

      o Even the metals which are not known to be at equilibrium are known to be relatively close to it. I have seen a similar calculation on uranium, failing to note that the uncertainty in the efflux estimate is larger than its distance from equilibrium. To calculate a true upper limit, we must calculate the maximum upper limit, using all values at the appropriate extreme of their measurement uncertainty. We must perform the calculations on the highest possible efflux rate, and the lowest possible influx rate. If equilibrium is within reach of those values, no upper limit on age can be derived.

      o In addition, even if we knew exactly the rates at which metals were removed from the oceans, and even if these rates did not match the influx rates, these numbers are still wrong. It would probably require solving a differential equation, and any reasonable approximation must "figure in" the efflux rate. Any creationist who presents these values as an "upper limit" has missed this factor entirely. These published values are only "upper limits" when the efflux rate is zero (which is known to be false for all the metals). Any efflux decreases the rate at which the metals build up, invalidating the alleged "limit."


* The method simply does not work. Ignoring the three problems above, the results are scattered randomly (five are under 1,000 years; five are 1,000-9,999 years; five are 10,000-99,999 years; six are 100,000-999,999 years; and six are 1,000,000 years or above). Also, the only two results that agree are 350 years, and Aluminum gives 100 years. If this is a valid method, then the age of the Earth must be less than the lowest "upper limit" in the table. Nobody in the debate would agree on a 100-year-old Earth.

* These "dating methods" do not actually date anything, which prevents independent confirmation. (Is a 19 million year "limit" [Sr] a "confirmation" of a 42,000 year "limit" [Hg]?) Independent confirmation is very important for dating methods -- scientists generally do not place much confidence in a date that is only computed from a single measurement.

* These methods depend on uniformity of a process which is almost certainly not uniform. There is no reason to believe that influx rates have been constant throughout time. There is reason to expect that, due to a relatively large amount of exposed land, today's erosion (and therefore influx) rates are higher than typical past rates.

* There is no "check" built into these methods. There is no way to tell if the calculated result is good or not. The best methods used by geologists to perform dating have a built-in check which identifies undatable samples. The only way a creationist can "tell" which of these methods produce bad values is to throw out the results that he doesn't like.

One might wonder why creationist authors have found it worthy of publishing. Yet, it is quite common. This argument also appears in the following creationist literature:

Baker (1976, p. 25)
Brown (1989, p. 16)
Morris (1974, pp. 153-156)
Morris & Parker (1987, pp. 284-284 and 290-291)
Wysong (1976, pp. 162, 163)

Conclusion

Obviously, these are a pretty popular set of “dating” mechanisms; they appear frequently in creationist literature from the 1960s through the late 1980s (and can be found on many creationist web sites even today). They appear in talk.origins more often than any other young-Earth arguments. They are all built upon a distortion of the data.

A curious and unbiased observer could quite reasonably refuse to even listen to the creationists until they “clean house” and stop pushing these arguments. If I found “Piltdown Man” in a modern biology text as evidence for human evolution, I’d throw the book away. (If I applied the same standards to the fairly large collection of creationist materials that I own, none would remain.)
Common Creationist Criticisms of Mainstream Dating Methods

Most creationist criticisms of radiometric dating can be categorized into a few groups. These include:

  1. Reference to a case where the given method did not work .

  2. Claims that the assumptions of a method may be violated :

    1. Constancy of radioactive decay rates .
    2. Contamination is likely to occur .
  3. Reference to a case where the given method did not work

This is perhaps the most common objection of all. Creationists point to instances where a given method produced a result that is clearly wrong, and then argue that therefore all such dates may be ignored. Such an argument fails on two counts:

* First, an instance where a method fails to work does not imply that it does not ever work. The question is not whether there are "undatable" objects, but rather whether or not all objects cannot be dated by a given method. The fact that one wristwatch has failed to keep time properly cannot be used as a justification for discarding all watches.

  How many creationists would see the same time on five different clocks and then feel free to ignore it? Yet, when five radiometric dating methods agree on the age of one of the Earth's oldest rock formations ( Dalrymple 1986, p. 44 ), it is dismissed without a thought.
* Second, these arguments fail to address the fact that radiometric dating produces results in line with "evolutionary" expectations about 95% of the time (Dalrymple 1992, personal correspondence). The claim that the methods produce bad results essentially at random does not explain why these "bad results" are so consistently in line with mainstream science.
  1. Claims that the assumptions of a method may be violated

Certain requirements are involved with all radiometric dating methods. These generally include constancy of decay rate and lack of contamination (gain or loss of parent or daughter isotope). Creationists often attack these requirements as “unjustified assumptions,” though they are really neither “unjustified” nor “assumptions” in most cases.
2.1 Constancy of radioactive decay rates.

Rates of radiometric decay (the ones relevant to radiometric dating) are thought to be based on rather fundamental properties of matter, such as the probability per unit time that a certain particle can “tunnel” out of the nucleus of the atom. The nucleus is well-insulated and therefore is relatively immune to larger-scale effects such as pressure or temperature.

Significant changes to rates of radiometric decay of isotopes relevant to geological dating have never been observed under any conditions. Emery (1972) is a comprehensive survey of experimental results and theoretical limits on variation of decay rates. Note that the largest changes reported by Emery are both irrelevant (they do not involve isotopes or modes of decay used for this FAQ), and minuscule (decay rate changed by of order 1%) compared to the change needed to compress the apparent age of the Earth into the young-Earthers’ timescale.

A short digression on mechanisms for radioactive decay, taken from USEnet article CK47LK.E2J@ucdavis.edu by Steve Carlip (subsequently edited in response to Steve’s request):

For the case of alpha decay, [...] the simple underlying mechanism is quantum mechanical tunneling through a potential barrier. You will find a simple explanation in any elementary quantum mechanics textbook; for example, Ohanion's Principles of Quantum Mechanics has a nice example of alpha decay on page 89. The fact that the process is probabilistic, and the exponential dependence on time, are straightforward consequences of quantum mechanics. (The time dependence is a case of "Fermi's golden rule" --- see, for example, page 292 of Ohanion.)

An exact computation of decay rates is, of course, much more complicated, since it requires a detailed understanding of the shape of the potential barrier. In principle, this is computable from quantum chromodynamics, but in practice the computation is much too complex to be done in the near future. There are, however, reliable approximations available, and in addition the shape of the potential can be measured experimentally.

For beta decay, the underlying fundamental theory is different; one begins with electroweak theory (for which Glashow, Weinberg and Salam won their Nobel prize) rather than quantum chromodynamics.

As described above, the process of radioactive decay is predicated on rather fundamental properties of matter. In order to explain old isotopic ages on a young Earth by means of accelerated decay, an increase of six to ten orders of magnitude in rates of decay would be needed (depending on whether the acceleration was spread out over the entire pre-Flood period, or accomplished entirely during the Flood).

Such a huge change in fundamental properties would have plenty of noticeable effects on processes other than radioactive decay (taken from 16381@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu by Steve Carlip):

So there has been a lot of creative work on how to look for evidence of such changes.

A nice (technical) summary is given by Sisterna and Vucetich (1991) . Among the phenomena they look at are:

    * searches for changes in the radius of Mercury, the Moon, and Mars (these would change because of changes in the strength of interactions within the materials that they are formed from);
    * searches for long term ("secular") changes in the orbits of the Moon and the Earth --- measured by looking at such diverse phenomena as ancient solar eclipses and coral growth patterns;
    * ranging data for the distance from Earth to Mars, using the Viking spacecraft;
    * data on the orbital motion of a binary pulsar PSR 1913+16;
    * observations of long-lived isotopes that decay by beta decay (Re 187, K 40, Rb 87) and comparisons to isotopes that decay by different mechanisms;
    * the Oklo natural nuclear reactor (mentioned in another posting);
    * experimental searches for differences in gravitational attraction between different elements (Eotvos-type experiments);
    * absorption lines of quasars (fine structure and hyperfine splittings);
    * laboratory searches for changes in the mass difference between the K0 meson and its antiparticle.

While it is not obvious, each of these observations is sensitive to changes in the physical constants that control radioactive decay. For example, a change in the strength of weak interactions (which govern beta decay) would have different effects on the binding energy, and therefore the gravitational attraction, of different elements. Similarly, such changes in binding energy would affect orbital motion, while (more directly) changes in interaction strengths would affect the spectra we observe in distant stars.

The observations are a mixture of very sensitive laboratory tests, which do not go very far back in time but are able to detect extremely small changes, and astronomical observations, which are somewhat less precise but which look back in time. (Remember that processes we observe in a star a million light years away are telling us about physics a million years ago.) While any single observation is subject to debate about methodology, the combined results of such a large number of independent tests are hard to argue with.

The overall result is that no one has found any evidence of changes in fundamental constants, to an accuracy of about one part in 1011 per year.

To summarize: both experimental evidence and theoretical considerations preclude significant changes to rates of radioactive decay. The limits placed are somewhere between ten and twenty orders of magnitude below the changes which would be necessary to accommodate the apparent age of the Earth within the young-Earth timescale (by means of accelerated decay).
2.2 Contamination may have occurred.

This is addressed in the most detail in the Isochron Dating FAQ , for all of the methods discussed in the “age of the Earth” part of this FAQ are isochron (or equivalent) methods, which have a check built in that detect most forms of contamination.

It is true that some dating methods (e.g., K-Ar and carbon-14) do not have a built-in check for contamination, and if there has been contamination these methods will produce a meaningless age. For this reason, the results of such dating methods are not treated with as much confidence.

Also, similarly to item (1) above, pleas to contamination do not address the fact that radiometric results are nearly always in agreement with old-Earth expectations. If the methods were producing completely “haywire” results essentially at random, such a pattern of concordant results would not be expected.

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
Lorisco,

I too misunderstood you. My apologies.

And modern evolutionists bend and manipulate scientific rules and principles and misuse scientific vocabulary applying all manner of conjecture and speculation to “prove” their hypotheses. Boy if that aint the truth! I’ve been saying that over and over again but when you are speaking out against the Church of Darwin in this day and age you’d better be prepared for an onslaught of cries of heresy. Then if you try and attend their church (the classroom) and teach something not sanctioned by their bishops they’ll catch you and drag you out and strap to a stake and light you on fire. (I’m speaking metaphorically here but you get the point)[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion.

And I totally agree with your religious analogy for evolutionists. When you believe in something that can’t be proven, that takes faith. If it is faith then it is religion. The religion of western science.

And I think that is ok if people want to have faith in science to answer all their questions and give them perspective on their lives. Everyone is entitled to his or her own religion. It’s just silly that they don’t acknowledge that and try and present it as something different.

It’s also curious that Pope Darwin denounced his church on his deathbed, but his church went on without him and totally ignored that fact. I guess the implications of giving that up are more than some people can accept and maintain their current worldview. Sad!

Some claim that evolution is a metaphysic equivalent to a religion. To attack evolution, these critics feel the need to present it not as just a scientific theory, but as a world view that competes with the world views of the objectors. For example:

"When we discuss creation/evolution, we are talking about beliefs: i.e. religion. The controversy is not religion versus science, it is religion versus religion, and the science of one religion versus the science of another." [Ham, K: 1983. The relevance of creation. Casebook II, Ex Nihilo 6(2):2, cited in Selkirk and Burrows 1987:3]

"It is crucial for creationists that they convince their audience that evolution is not scientific, because both sides agree that creationism is not." [Miller 1982: 4, cited in Selkirk and Burrows 1987: 103]

Metaphysics is the name given to a branch of philosophical thought that deals with issues of the fundamental nature of reality and what is beyond experience. It literally means “after the physics”, so-named because Aristotle’s book on the subject followed his Physics, which dealing with the nature of the ordinary world, which in Classical Greek is physike . It is defined in the 1994 Webster’s Dictionary (Brittanica CD edition) as

"a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology: ontology: abstract philosophical studies: a study of what is outside objective experience".

Metaphysical systems come in three main flavors: philosophical systems (overall systems such as Kant’s or Hegel’s, or more recently Whitehead’s or Collingwood’s); ideologies , which are usually political, moral or other practical philosophical systems; and religions which in their theologies attempt to create comprehensive philosophical structures.

A metaphysic is often derived from first principles by logical analysis. Aristotle, for example, started with an analysis of “being” and “becoming” (ie, what is and how it changes); Kant, with an analysis of knowledge of the external world; Hegel, from an analysis of historical change. Religious metaphysics often attempt to marry a philosophical system with basic theses about the nature and purpose of God, derived from an authoritative scripture or revelation.

In some traditions, metaphysics is seen to be a Bad Thing, especially in those views sometimes called “modernisms”. The great 18th century Scottish philosopher Hume once wrote that any book not containing reasoning by number or matters of fact was mere sophistry and should be consigned to the flames (he exempted his own philosophical writings, apparently). This distaste stems from the excesses of the medieval Scholastics, whose often empty formalism was applied to Aquinas’ theology based on Aristotle’s metaphysics. Early science arose in part from the rejection of this vapid quibbling.

No-one can deny that views such as Luther’s and Marx’s rely upon metaphysical assumptions and methods. If views like these come into conflict with science, then there are four options: change the science to suit the metaphysics; change the metaphysics to suit the science; change both to fit each other; or find a place for the metaphysics in a “gap” where science hasn’t yet gone. The last option is called the “God of the Gaps” approach [Flew and McIntyre 1955], and of course it has the disadvantage that if (when) science does explain that phenomenon, the religion is diminished.

Historically, evolutionary science grew out partly from natural theology such as Paley’s and Chambers’ arguments from design, which defined the problems of biology in the early 19th century [Ruse 1979: chapter 3]. These writers sought evidence of God in the appearance of design in the natural world, yet, only a century later, when the evolutionary biologist JBS Haldane was asked what biology taught of the nature of God, he is reported to have replied “He has an inordinate fondness for beetles”, since there were so many species of beetle. Other than that, he couldn’t really say. Evolutionary science removed the ground from underneath natural theology. Arguments from design for the existence of God were no longer the only conclusion that could be drawn from the adaption of living things [Dennett 1995].

All the furore generated about the nature of chance in evolution is based not upon challenges to the scientific nature of the theory, but upon the need to find purpose in every facet of reality [cf Dennett 1995]. Often, this derives from religious conviction, but sometimes it arises from a more considered philosophical view.

Metaphysical theories tend to fall into two kinds: those that view everything in nature as the result of Mind (idealisms) and those that view Mind as the result of mechanisms of Nature (naturalisms). One may take a naturalistic approach to some things, and still be an idealist in other domains; for example, one may accept with equanimity that minds are the result of certain sorts of physical brains and still consider, say, society or morality to be the result of the workings of Mind. Typically, though, idealism and naturalism are held as distinct and separate philosophical doctrines.

Idealists, including creationists, cannot accept the view that reality cares little for the aspirations, goals, moral principles, pain or pleasure of organisms, especially humans [cf. Dawkins 1995:132f]. There has to be a Purpose, they say and Evolution implies there is no Purpose. Therefore, they say that evolution is a metaphysical doctrine of the same type as, but opposed to, the sort of religious or philosophical position taken by the idealist. Worse, not only is it not science (because it’s a metaphysic, you see), it’s a pernicious doctrine because it denies Mind.

Christian creationism may rely upon a literal interpretation of Christian scripture, but its foundation is the view that God’s Mind (Will) lies directly behind all physical phenomena. Anything that occurs must take place because it is immediately part of God’s plan; they believe that the physical world should, and does, provide proof of God’s existence and goodness (extreme providentialism). Evolution, which shows the appearance of design does not imply design, is seen to undercut this eternal truth, and hence they argue that it must be false. In the particular (actual) demonology of fundamentalism, it follows as a corollary that evolution is the work of the devil and his minions. [note 11]

It should be noted that many evolutionists think that the mere fact and scientific theory of evolution in no way prohibits further moral or spiritual meaning, and many do not think that any particular purpose to the universe is implied just by evolution, but requires some religious or philosophical commitment.

Philosophers of science mostly conclude that science is metaphysics neutral, following the Catholic physicist Pierre Duhem [1914]. Science functions the same way for Hindus as for Catholics, for Frenchmen as for Americans, for communists as for democrats, allowing for localised variations that are ironed out after a while. However, science does indeed rule out various religious etiological myths (origin stories), and often forces the revision of historical and medical stories used in the mythology of a religion. And when cosmologies are given in ancient scriptures that involve solid heavens, elephants and scarab beetles, science shows them to be unqualifiedly false as descriptions of the physical world as it is observed.

Science can rule out a metaphysical claim, then. Is evolutionary science therefore a metaphysical Weltanschauung (a nice pretentious German word meaning world-view)? I don’t think so. Many things claimed by metaphysical views such as fundamentalist Christian biblical literalism are not themselves metaphysical claims. For example, the claim that the world is flat (if made by a religious text) is a matter of experiment and research, not first principles and revelation. If “by their fruits shall ye know them”, false factual claims are evidence of bad science, not good religion.

Many of those who do hold religious views take the approach that they get their religion from their scriptures and their science from the scientific literature and community. They therefore treat the factual claims made in those scriptures the same way they treat the metaphysical views of scientists: as not germane to the function of that source of knowledge [Berry 1988]. Does the fact that Stephen Jay Gould admits to learning Marxism at his father’s knee or Richard Dawkins to being an atheist mean that evolution is either Marxist or atheistic (as so many immediately and fallaciously conclude)? Of course not.[note 12]

If it were the case that personal views of scientists defined the results of scientific work, then the broad range of metaphysical views of practising scientists would mean that – at the same time – science was Christian, Hindu, Marxist and probably even animist, as well as agnostic or atheist. While some extreme cultural relativists do try to claim that science is no more than the sum of its cultural environments, this view fails to explain how it is that science gets such consistent results and acquires such broad agreement on matters of fact. Nevertheless, this does not stop idealists from sometimes disingenuously claiming that science is what you want (or “will”) to make of it (see the section on the nature of science).

There is a tradition in modern Western philosophy, dating at least from the Romantic philosophers of the 18th century, that treats overall theories of the natural world as self-contained and self-validating systems of belief that are beyond criticism from other such systems. Many Christian and some Jewish philosophers and theologians have claimed that Christianity (or any religion) is indeed a self-contained Weltanschauung, and that it is immune from attacks upon its claims by scientific research. This takes several forms. One theologian, Rudolph Bultmann, once said that even if Jesus’ physical remains were found, Christianity (as he interpreted it) would still be true. Others hold that all of science is just a religion, in the sense that it is a self-contained belief system, and therefore it cannot objectively disprove or challenge the claims made by another system (ie, Christianity). This is the approach often taken by creationists.

In the final analysis, this boils down to an “anti-science” prejudice, for science is not, in this sense, a metaphysical system. Since science is not a system of thought deduced from first principles (as are traditional metaphysical systems), and that it deals precisely with objective experience, science is not, nor is any theory of science, a true metaphysical system.

However, the claim is sometimes, and more plausibly, made that evolutionary theory, along with some other scientific theories, functions as a kind of attitudinal metaphysical system [Ruse 1989]. It is (in my opinion, rightly) thought to influence the kinds of problems and solutions dealt with by science. There is no problem with this, since in order for a discipline to make any progress, the field of possible problems (essentially infinite, to use a malapropism) must be restricted to some set of plausible and viable research options. The theory of evolution as now consensually held acts to narrow the range and limit the duplication required. This is harmless, and is true of any field of science.

Ruse also describes what he calls “metaphysical Darwinism” [Ruse 1992] (as opposed to “scientific Darwinism”) which is indeed a metaphysical system akin to a worldview, and which has expressed itself in numerous extra-scientific philosophies, including Spencer’s, Teilhard’s, and Haeckel’s, or even the quasi-mystical views of Julian Huxley. These must be considered separate to the scientific theory, and are often in contradiction to the actual scientific models.

Other than this, the “metaphysic” of evolution by selection is primarily a research-guiding mindset that has been extraordinarily fruitful where no others have been [Hull 1989]. However, as a metaphysic, evolutionary theory is fairly poverty-stricken. This is what should be true of a scientific theory; for the number of conclusions beyond the empirical evidence that can be conjectured is unlimited. Any theory that committed itself to a metaphysical conclusion as a logical inference would be almost certainly false.

Those who need Cosmic Meaning need not fear that any version of evolutionary theory prohibits it; although neither does nor can it support it. Those evolutionists who have either argued in favour of Cosmic Meaning on the basis of evolutionary theory, or have argued that there can be no Cosmic Meaning because things evolve, are both wrong. The conclusions do not follow from the premises, simply because ‘is’ does not imply ‘ought’.

Good posts, Xvim.

I disagree with the contentions contained therein but it’s refreshing that you decided to post something that adds to the debate instead of the usual “Let’s get a match and torch the stupid ideas of the Bible and you creationist dorks” and “you nuts can keep you Great Bearded One on the White Throne out of the science classroom.” I’m know I’m paraphrasing but you and the frat boys kinda gained a reputation for standing around the creationist guy and laughing and name calling and riduculing and egging each other on and so on and so forth.

Bravo!

BTW, it’s customary to use references when quoting text.

One of Xvim’s uncited posts mentioned dating methods. It’s important to note that dating methods have their problems, serious ones. However, those methods are so monumentally critical in the promotion of the idea that the universe and earth are billions of years old that the inherent problems in the methods are often overlooked and/or understated.

Click on the following link to view more discussion on dating methods.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
And I totally agree with your religious analogy for evolutionists. When you believe in something that can’t be proven, that takes faith. If it is faith then it is religion. The religion of western science.[/quote]

Faith is required when believing in something that can neither be proven nor disproven. When this occurs, you can never know if something is true, or if it is false. If something can be disproven, then one can possibly know that it is in fact not true.

This is why God (and other religions) take faith, his/her/their existences can never be proven or disproven.

But, scientific hypotheses and theories (even laws!) can be disproven.

[quote]It’s also curious that Pope Darwin denounced his church on his deathbed, but his church went on without him and totally ignored that fact. I guess the implications of giving that up are more than some people can accept and maintain their current worldview. Sad!
[/quote]

What’s sad is people like you perpetuating this myth of Darwin recanting on his deathbed. Even the guys at Answers in Genesis say not to use that as an argument. Here is an excerpt:

Darwin recanted on his deathbed?. Many people use this story, originally from a Lady Hope. However, it is almost certainly not true, and there is no corroboration from those who were closest to him, even from Darwin?s wife Emma, who never liked evolutionary ideas.

The whole thing can be read here: Arguments to Avoid Topic | Answers in Genesis

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
BTW, it’s customary to use references when quoting text.

[/quote]

It looks as though he did reference his sources. Unless he edited them in after you posted this.

Some of the information in my posts was not specifically cited and a good deal of it was liberally borrowed from an assortment of sites. I can provide references if totally necessary but a quick Google search will come up with the same information. I find it odd that you would take offense at the “Listen kids” comment and continue to toss out the “frat-boy” thing repeatedly. Also, on matters regarding geology and dating methods I’m more inclined to believe the words of a geologist or a physicist than I am a theologist. I have a pretty fundamental aversion to taking that approach that there is some foregone conclusion, regardless of it’s source and ‘science’ should be about finding things that support that conclusion and tossing out or ignoring things that do not. Evolution theory assumes nothing and tries to draw conclusions based on external evidence, ID theory makes the presupostion that the Christian God created everything as laid out in Genesis and then attempts to find support for that… being totally unable to find that support however, Creationist then turn on the only viable theory presented so far and try to poke holes in it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, the phrase cuts both ways of course but the key elements that seperate ID from Evolution have already been pointed out many times, one is science, one is faith based on the Judeo-Christian creation myth.

One is science, one is philosophy. Folks who support evolution, unless they happen to be Atheists (note the capitalization) spend little or no time trying to debunk your religious faith, in fact many of them, most of them if you believe the polls, SHARE your belief in the Christian God. This is so, because evolution stands on it’s own, it does not require attacks on the ‘opposition’ to prop itself up. ID theorists, Creationists have no foundatin to stand on, the result is that any discussion of ID theory or Evolution results in the Creationists cutting and pasting 20 year old, already debunked material from creationist web sites.

Science is falsifiable, faith is not. You can argue the semantics of ‘proof’ and ‘evidence’ and ‘laws’ vs. ‘theories’ till your blue in the face but ultimately one is a search for the truth and the other is an assumption of what the truth is with little or no interest in actual discovery.

Uh dude, why are you posting peer-reviewed journals articles and research?? This is a science thread…shouldnt you be cutting and pasting from AnswersInGenesis- a site that claims “The primary authority for Answers in Genesis is the infallible Word of God, the Bible.”

Now THATS science…

[quote]ToShinDo wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
BTW, it’s customary to use references when quoting text.

It looks as though he did reference his sources. Unless he edited them in after you posted this.[/quote]

He must have done just that.

Another excellent source for peer-reviewed articles:

http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq.html

Thanks, Floortom, for the excellent suggestion.

Abstracts, peer-reviewed, some of many:

The Angular Size of the Moon and Other Planetary Satellites: An Argument For Design
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/35/astrodesign.html

DOUGHERTY GAP: Evidence for a Turbidity Current Paleoenvironment
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/32/32_4a1.html

Socrates Meets Darwin: A Study in Question Begging
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/33/33_2a.html

A DECADE OF CREATIONIST RESEARCH
(Part I)
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/12/12_1a1.html

Some Biological Problems With The Natural Selection Theory
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/29/natsel.html

Why Abiogenesis Is Impossible
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/36/36_4/abiogenesis.html

New Zuiyo Maru Cryptid Observations
Strong Indications It Was a Marine Tetrapod
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/38/38_1/Cryptid.htm

Flood Geology of the Crimean Peninsula
Part I: Tavrick Formation
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/38/38_3/Crimean.htm

The Haymond Formation Boulder Beds, Marathon Basin, West Texas:
Theories On Origins And Catastrophism
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/36/36_1/haymond.html

Precambrian Plant Fossils and the Hakatai Shale Controversy
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/36/36_3/plantfossils.html

Dinosaur Nests Reinterpreted
Walter R. Barnhart
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/41/41_2/Dinotests.htm

Trematode Parasites: What Is Their Genesis?
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/36/36_4/trematodes.html

La Brea Tar Pits: A Critique of Animal Entrapment Theories
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/39/39_3/LaBrea.htm

The Creation of Planetary Magnetic Fields
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/21/21_3/21_3.html

Assessing Creationist Stratigraphy
with Evidence from the Gulf of Mexico
http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/36/36_2/cfjrgulf.htm

Tom, here are some more of the articles you have requested:

Deposits Remaining from the Genesis Flood: Rim Gravels in Arizona, by Michael J. Oard and Peter Klevberg, June 2005, CRSQ Vol 42 No 1 pp 1-17 [HTML] [PDF]

Is Bacterial Resistance to Antibiotics an Appropriate Example of Evolutionary Change?, by Kevin L. Anderson, March 2005, CRSQ Vol 41 No 4 pp 318-326 [HTML] [PDF]

Beyond Scientific Creationism, by John K. Reed, Peter Klevberg, Chris Bennett, Jerry Akridge, Carl R. Froede, Jr., Thomas Lott, December 2004, CRSQ Vol 41 No 3 pp 216-230 [HTML] [PDF]

Dinosaur Nests Reinterpreted, by Walter R. Barnhart, September 2004, CRSQ Vol. 41 No. 2, pp 89-102 [HTML] [PDF]

Helium Diffusion Age of 6,000 Years Supports Accelerated Nuclear Decay, by D. Russell Humphreys, Steven A. Austin, John R. Baumgardner, and Andrew A. Snelling, June 2004, CRSQ Vol. 41 No. 1, pp 1-16 [HTML] [PDF]

Why Mammal Body Hair Is an Evolutionary Enigma, by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., March 2004, CRSQ Vol. 40 No. 4, pp 240-243 [HTML] [PDF]

An Old Age for the Earth Is the Heart of Evolution, by Jonathan F. Henry, Ph.D., December 2003, CRSQ Vol. 40 No. 3, pp 164-172 [HTML] [PDF]

The Uniformitarian Stratigraphic Column ? Shortcut or Pitfall for Creation Geology?, by John K. Reed and Carl R. Froede Jr., September 2003, CRSQ Vol. 40 No. 2, pp 90-98 [HTML] [PDF]

La Brea Tar Pits: Evidence of a Catastrophic Flood, by William Weston, June 2003, CRSQ Vol. 40 No. 1, pp 25-33 [HTML] [PDF]

The Nature of Redshifts and an Argument by Gentry, by Andrew S. Repp, March 2003, CRSQ Vol. 39 No. 4, pp 269-274 [PDF]

La Brea Tar Pits: A Critique of Animal Entrapment Theories, by William Weston, December 2002, CRSQ Vol. 39 No. 3, pp 160-167

An Evaluation of the Human Skeletal Remains and Artifacts Found in the Tomb of the Eagles on the Orkney Islands, by Lawson L. Schroeder, J.C. Campbell, and George H. Latta, September 2002, CRSQ Vol. 39 No. 2, pp 120-124

The Earth?s Magnetic Field is Still Losing Energy, by D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D, June 2002, CRSQ Vol. 39 No. 1, pp 1-11 [HTML] [PDF (1Meg)]

La Brea Tar Pits: An Introductory History (1769?1969), by William Weston, March 2002, CRSQ Vol. 38 No. 4, pp 174-180

Flood Geology of the Crimean Peninsula, Part I: Tavrick Formation, by Alexander V. Lalomov, December 2001, CRSQ Vol. 38 No. 3, pp 118-124

Scanning Electron Microscope Study of Mummified Collagen Fibers in Fossil Tyrannosaurus rex Bone by Mark Armitage, September 2001, CRSQ Vol 38 No 2 pp 61-66

New Zuiyo Maru Cryptid Observations - Strong Indications It Was a Marine Tetrapod by John Goertzen, June 2001, CRSQ Vol 38 No 1 pp 19-29

The Maximum-Power Stimulus Theory For Muscle by Joseph Mastropaolo, Ph.D., March 2001, CRSQ Vol 37 No 4 pp 213-220

Laws of Fertility, Role of Natural Selection, and Destructiveness of Mutations by Yuri N. Ivanov, December 2000, CRSQ Vol 37 No 3 pp153-158

Baraminology?Classification of Created Organisms by Wayne Frair, Ph.D, September 2000, CRSQ Vol 37 No 2 pp82-91

A Mechanism for Accelerated Radioactive Decay by Eugene F. Chaffin PhD, June 2000, CRSQ Vol 37 No. 1

Dark Matter by Don DeYoung, March 2000, CRSQ Vol. 36, No. 4

Trematode Parasites: What Is Their Genesis?, by Mark H. Armitage, March 2000, CRSQ Vol 36, No. 3 pp184 - 194

Why Abiogenesis Is Impossible by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D., March 2000, CRSQ, Vol. 36, No. 4

Precambrian Plant Fossils and the Hakatai Shale Controversy, by Carl R. Froede, Jr., December 1999, CRSQ Vol. 36, No. 3.

Assessing Creationist Stratigraphy with Evidence from the Gulf of Mexico by Carl R. Froede Jr., and John K. Reed, , September 1999, CRSQ Vol. 36, No. 2

Embryology and Evolution, by Wayne Frair, September 1999, CRSQ Vol. 36, No. 2

The Van Andel Creation Research Center - A Unique Creationist Resource by John R. Meyer, September 1999, CRSQ Vol. 36, No. 2

ATP: The Perfect Energy Currency for the Cell by Jerry Bergman, June 1999, CRSQ Vol. 36 No. 1

The Haymond Formation Boulder Beds, Marathon Basin, West Texas: Theories On Origins And Catastrophism by George F. Howe and Carl R. Froede Jr., June 1999, CRSQ Vol. 36, No. 1

The Angular Size of the Moon and Other Planetary Satellites: An Argument For Design by Danny R. Faulkner, June 1998, CRSQ Vol 35 No. 1

The Sands Of Time: A Biblical Model Of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation by Larry Vardiman, December 1996, CRSQ Vol. 33, No. 3

Socrates Meets Darwin: A Study in Question Begging , by Gary Colwell, Ph.D., September 1996, CRSQ, Vol. 33, No. 2, P. 127

Dougherty Gap: Evidence for a Turbidity Current Paeloenvironent , by Carl R. Froede, Jr., B.S., P.G., and Jack H. Cowart, M.S., P.G., March 1996, CRS, Vol. 32, No. 4

How Do We Know What We Know? , by Lane P. Lester, Ph.D., September 1995, CRSQ Vol. 32, No. 2

Genetics: Enemy of Evolution , by Lane P. Lester, Ph.D., March 1995, CRSQ Vol. 31, No. 4

Stone Mountain, Georgia: A Creation Geologist’s Perspective , by Carl. R. Froede, Jr., B.S., P.G., March 1995, CRSQ Vol. 31, No. 4

The 1993 Midwest Floods and Rapid Canyon Formation , by Glen W. Wolfrom, Ph.D., September 1994, CRSQ Vol. 31, No. 2.

The History of Life , by Lane P. Lester Ph.D., September 1994, CRSQ, Vol. 31, No. 2

The Scientific Existence of a Higher Intelligence , by Robert A. Herrmann, Ph.D., March 1994, CRSQ Vol. 30, No. 4

Ota Benga: The Story of the Pygmy on Display in a Zoo by Jerry Bergman, December 1993, CRSQ Vol. 30, No. 3

The Role Of Stellar Population Types In The Discussion Of Stellar Evolution by Danny R. Faulkner, June 1993, CRSQ Vol. 30, No. 1

Some Biological Problems with the Natural Selection Theory by Jerry Bergman, December 1992, CRSQ Vol. 29, No. 3

Toward A Creationist Astronomy by Danny R. Faulkner and Don B. DeYoung, December 1991, CRSQ Vol. 28 No. 3

Is The Sun An Age Indicator? by Don B. DeYoung and David E. Rush, September 1989, CRSQ Vol. 26(2)

More Creationist Research (14 Years), Part II: Biological Research , by Duane T. Gish, Ph.D., June 1989, CRSQ Vol. 26, No. 1

More Creationist Research (14 years), Part Ia: Geological Research, by Duane T. Gish, Ph.D., March 1989, CRSQ Vol. 25, No. 4
… Part Ib

The Creation of Planetary Magnetic Fields , by D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D., December 1984, CRSQ Vol. 21, No. 3

Interdependence in Macromolecule Synthesis: Evidence for Design by Doug Sharp, June 1977, CRSQ Vol. 14, No. 1

A Decade of Creationist Research, Part I by Duane T. Gish, Ph.D., June 1975, CRSQ Vol. 12, No. 2
… Part II

http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles_chron.htm

Tom, there are hundreds more. Now what else can we help you with?

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
ToShinDo wrote:
throttle132 wrote:
BTW, it’s customary to use references when quoting text.

It looks as though he did reference his sources. Unless he edited them in after you posted this.

He must have done just that.[/quote]

If you’re referring to me, I didn’t edit any of those posts after making them.