Dissecting ID

[quote]Miserere wrote:
gojira wrote:
I wanna know who/what designed the “intelligent designer”.

And is proto-intelligent designer more intelligent than the intelligent designer? If so, why didn’t the proto-intelligent designer design an intelligent designer that could design a human eye without the blind spot?

Prof. X, the fact that the brain has to “fudge” what you see in order to make up for the blind spot shows that the eye is not perfect. It is complex, yes, but not perfect. One would expect a certain level of perfection from God, sorry, the intelligent designer.

Especially when he/she/it gave the octopus eyes with photocells whose nerves face away from the light, hence without a blind spot.[/quote]

Do you think that the location of the eye has anything to do with it?

http://divemad.com/Squid_Eye_Z.jpg

Our eyes compensate for each other and the blind spot is ONLY located when one eye is closed. This wouldn’t be the case if we had one eye on each side of our heads…as is the case with the squid. Squids can focus each eye independantly…however, because of location again, they would need this ability.

These discussions are fun. I agree with what lucasa was getting at. I believe in a “Creator” which would mean, the creation of existance (the universe) and the physical laws which govern it’s inner workings. The creator in my mind is not a “manipulator” in the aspect that the creator would not actively play a role in the “evolution” or advancement of the universe.

The creator in my mind, set up things, and on a very large scale I might add, because with enough size and the right materials interecting, the possibility of life was good, or perhaps even certain, and letting it unfold randomley would be more “interesting” than doing something with a known outcome, that one would steer along.

I say interesting which doesn’t fully get the meaning across but if the creator did in fact create the universe, the creator must have had interest in doing so, and thus has interest in observing the advancement.

So the intelligent design I think does exists is that a being created this universe with the right ingredients, and of adequate size to produce complex systems, or life.

If any of you have not really looked into it yet, here is a link to the atlas of the universe. It’s quite mind blowing when you sit and actually think of how many star systems are out there. Take a look.

http://www.anzwers.org/free/universe/index.html

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:
These discussions are fun. I agree with what lucasa was getting at. I believe in a “Creator” which would mean, the creation of existance (the universe) and the physical laws which govern it’s inner workings. The creator in my mind is not a “manipulator” in the aspect that the creator would not actively play a role in the “evolution” or advancement of the universe. V[/quote]

For once, we actually agree on something…which means the world is obviously going to end now. I do, however, believe that there is slightly more “hands on” activity (or at least that there was nearer the beginning of creation).

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Our eyes compensate for each other and the blind spot is ONLY located when one eye is closed.[/quote]

Not so much arguing with you as extrapolating and/or pontificating, it’s interesting that our other bilateral systems are more redundant (lungs, kidneys, limbs, etc.) whereas the eyes although bilateral, are largely non-redundant, especially considering that the blind spot really isn’t the periphery of the vision.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/blindspot/

On this point, I must agree with others, to create all kinds of redundant bilateral systems all over the human body and then to generate a bilateral system that’s not redundant when it so easily could be, seems less like an “intelligent design” and more like the best selection from random chance.

Also,

I’m pretty sure you’ve seen the above photo?

[quote]lucasa wrote:

I’m pretty sure you’ve seen the above photo?

[/quote]

I have seen even better on pigs. I hope no one thinks that anyone who believes in God automatically doesn’t believe in the advancements of gene research. I have personally worked on gene research where I had to grow the bacteria used to splice the thrombomodulin gene into mice in order to shut it off.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Why does hemoglobin have such an affinity for carbon monoxide? Carbon monoxide is a clear, odorless gas which we can’t detect. Hemoglobin binds with it much more readily than with oxygen, which leads to unpleasant phenomenons such as dying. Is this a prank pulled off by the ID? Or is it that because carbon monoxide poisoning is a very recent possibility and that it’s never been an environmental pressure we’ve had to adapt too? Wasn’t the ID able to design hemoglobin so that it would favor oxygen in all circumstances?

[/quote]

At risk of jumping into this argument again, that is like asking, why are there hurricanes if hurricanes can kill people? There are an equal number of people laughing at you for misunderstanding the concept as there probably are those who think you even have a point.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Vegita wrote:
These discussions are fun. I agree with what lucasa was getting at. I believe in a “Creator” which would mean, the creation of existance (the universe) and the physical laws which govern it’s inner workings. The creator in my mind is not a “manipulator” in the aspect that the creator would not actively play a role in the “evolution” or advancement of the universe. V

For once, we actually agree on something…which means the world is obviously going to end now. I do, however, believe that there is slightly more “hands on” activity (or at least that there was nearer the beginning of creation).[/quote]

I could possibly agree on this point as well to some degree, But I would even be more comfortable with the creator, letting some other advanced sentient life have a role at the beginning, or possibly even now. I’m not sure if it was red planet, but in one of the mars movies (Gary Sinase was in it) they met a lone being who was in the “face” on mars. The being was supposedly, responsible for sending DNA as a Single cell basic lifeform to earth, where it would grow and flourish into what we have today. This I think could be a very possible reality as to how life on earth started and probably other planets as well.

Technically, we may end up doing something similar even if it’s unintentional. Say we end up having very great space travel capabilities. What if we find a planet with basic life requirements and a little bacteria or germ or something falls off us and begins a new life on the planet? Even if we leave and never return, in 2 billion years there could potentially be intelligent life on the planet.

Some other questions I would love to have answered if my other thoughts are correct would be questions like, did these beings enter our universe, shortly after the big bang? Or did they just evolve very quickly much like humans have, but very shortly after the big bang occured. Say even a million or so years after the big bang, a sentient race emerged, that would give them oh about 13.9 billions years to advance and do things. It’s quite possible and actually again considering the size of the universe, more likely probable.

I like the second one better because having them come in from someplace else, means that the first trial either happened randomly or the creator had direct influence on how things went. Again, either is very possible, I just like the idea of them happening based on probability and chance rather than by a guided hand, ( or noodly appendage) :wink:

V

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
Why does hemoglobin have such an affinity for carbon monoxide? Carbon monoxide is a clear, odorless gas which we can’t detect. Hemoglobin binds with it much more readily than with oxygen, which leads to unpleasant phenomenons such as dying. Is this a prank pulled off by the ID? Or is it that because carbon monoxide poisoning is a very recent possibility and that it’s never been an environmental pressure we’ve had to adapt too? Wasn’t the ID able to design hemoglobin so that it would favor oxygen in all circumstances?

At risk of jumping into this argument again, that is like asking, why are there hurricanes if hurricanes can kill people? There are an equal number of people laughing at you for misunderstanding the concept as there probably are those who think you even have a point.

[/quote]
I’m sure there are even some who read your stuff and think you know what you’re talking about… who cares?

The fact that you again miss the point shows that you’re either a lot dumber than most people believe, or you do it on purpose.

The point is that IDers point out all the magnificent “design” they see in eyes, clotting factor and so on, as support for the existence of their Intelligent Designer. “Errors” in design support the theory of evolution’s method of “designing” organism. But working with what’s available and selecting according to environmental pressures that are present at the time. Hence, many adaptations are more “good enough” jury-rigging than Intelligent Design.

I’m eagerly awaiting your post saying that “Oh, I was just playing your game to have a little fun.” like you did in the last ID thread after you painted yourself in a corner.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
Some other questions I would love to have answered if my other thoughts are correct would be questions like, did these beings enter our universe, shortly after the big bang? Or did they just evolve very quickly much like humans have, but very shortly after the big bang occured. Say even a million or so years after the big bang, a sentient race emerged, that would give them oh about 13.9 billions years to advance and do things. It’s quite possible and actually again considering the size of the universe, more likely probable. [/quote]

A millions year after the Big Bang doesn’t leave enough time for stars to have fused hydrogen down to heavier elements in their cores. It’s not long enough for a sufficient number of those stars to have novaed and spread the heavy elements around. Any life present at that time (if possible) would’ve been completely different from the one we know.

[quote]I like the second one better because having them come in from someplace else, means that the first trial either happened randomly or the creator had direct influence on how things went. Again, either is very possible, I just like the idea of them happening based on probability and chance rather than by a guided hand, ( or noodly appendage) :wink:

V[/quote]

Having the Intelligent Designer be and ancient race of space faring beings doesn’t really solve anything. You still need to figure out how they got started. And it doesn’t support punctual interference on their part to guide the evolution process along either. Unless you can produce one of those being for an interview.

I’m sure some of the physicists can pipe up, but I’ve always found the “Goldilocks perfect” items discussed in this article to be a more compelling argument for ID than anything having to do with specific biological structures like the eye - BTW, let me reiterate that, to my understanding, ID and evolution are not incompatible, though ID isn’t necessarily “science” either:

Physicists Are Asking:
Are Universe’s Traits
Random or Inevitable?
September 16, 2005; Page B1

What if…?

In “counterfactual history,” historians brainstorm about how the course of human events would have changed if history had taken a different turn – if the U.S. had not entered World War I, for example, or if Trotsky had escaped his assassin. The exercise sharpens understanding of which outcomes are the inevitable result of large-scale forces and which are the accidental consequence of contingent events.

Now, scientists are playing the same game. They are asking which numbers in physics and cosmology are accidents and which emerge inevitably from ultimate, unified laws of nature (the inevitability of those laws is a story for another day; for now, we’ll assume the laws have to be what they are).

Must gravity be so much weaker than the “strong force” that holds together atomic nuclei? Must the infant universe have been as free of clumps as it was? Or are those values just accidents? As Einstein asked, “How much choice did God have in constructing the universe?”

Scientists have tripped up before when trying to distinguish accidents from fundamentals. No less an astronomer than Johannes Kepler, who in the early 1600s discovered the laws of planetary motion, believed the number of planets in our solar system, and their orbital distance from the sun, reflect a basic principle – in this case, a geometric one. If you nest the five Platonic solids, such as the cube and the tetrahedron, one inside the other like Russian dolls, he found, the spacings equal the orbital spacings to within 10%. Geometry, he concluded, explains astronomy.

“Kepler didn’t know that the number of planets and their orbits don’t emerge from fundamental principles,” says astronomer Mario Livio of the Space Telescope Science Institute, Baltimore. “They are just accidents” of how clumps formed in the dust and gas of our solar system.

Scientists have also made the opposite mistake, assuming that a cosmic parameter cannot be explained by higher principles.

For instance, the density of matter in the universe is just right, in a not-too-high, not-too-low Goldilocks sort of way. If it were a little denser, everything would have recollapsed into one big glob; a little sparser, and the cosmos would be nothing but wisps of gas. Neither condition is particularly hospitable to life. Some cosmologists, therefore, said that the density is what it is because if it were anything else we wouldn’t be here to even wonder about it. That line of thinking is called the anthropic principle.

But appealing to anthropic reasoning amounts to a premature surrender. When the theory called inflation came along to explain how the universe grew exponentially after the Big Bang, it also explained the Goldilocks cosmic density naturally, notes cosmologist Paul Steinhardt of Princeton University. Settling for an anthropic explanation, scientists basically threw up their hands and said “it is what it is,” and missed the fact that the magic density emerges from something more basic.

“Anthropic thinking can be very dangerous,” agrees Dr. Livio, leading scientists to give up on finding a better explanation for why the universe has some property. “Anthropic reasoning should not replace the search for fundamental explanations.”

Another number that must be Goldilocks-perfect to allow life is the ratio of the amount of ordinary matter (the stuff in stars, planets and people) to the amount of strange “dark matter.” Ordinary matter and dark matter must be in just the right mix. With too little of the dark variety, matter in the early universe wouldn’t have clumped together and galaxies wouldn’t have formed. With too much dark matter, it all would have formed a gloppy clump.

For this and other cosmic numbers necessary for matter, galaxies, stars and life, the jury is still out on what’s an accident and what’s a result of fundamental physics. Prof. Steinhardt suspects that many, if not all of them, are fundamental, drawn to the values they have because of what he calls an “attractor” built into the fundamental laws of nature.

The possibility that some cosmic numbers are accidents has an interesting implication. Just as the number of planets in a solar system is not a reflection of fundamental laws and so can be different in other solar systems, so cosmic numbers might have other values in other universes. (Although “universe” has traditionally meant one-and-only-one, advances in cosmology suggest there may be multiple “pocket universes,” each a child of its own Big Bang.)

If so, then physicists can hope all they want that the discovery of a grand unified theory of physics “will reveal that all physical parameters are uniquely determined,” Dr. Livio and astronomer Martin Rees of the University of Cambridge, England, wrote recently in Science. But they “may be doomed to failure. … Fundamental constants and laws could be mere parochial bylaws in our cosmic patch.”

In that case, the life-giving properties of our universe are – in the eyes of science – just an accident, and nothing particularly special. Historians have counterfactual history; now cosmologists have counterfactual universes.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m sure some of the physicists can pipe up, but I’ve always found the “Goldilocks perfect” items discussed in this article to be a more compelling argument for ID than anything having to do with specific biological structures like the eye - BTW, let me reiterate that, to my understanding, ID and evolution are not incompatible, though ID isn’t necessarily “science” either:
[/quote]

I agree. I can’t understand how the concept of chaos fits in with the large amount of order that has created what we know of the universe. That is an amazing number of hits on “just right”. I wrote before it is like believing that if you are in enough car accidents, eventually one of those crashes will result in a brand new Beemer with 20" rims, an MP3 player in the dash and a brand new wax job.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Some other questions I would love to have answered if my other thoughts are correct would be questions like, did these beings enter our universe, shortly after the big bang? Or did they just evolve very quickly much like humans have, but very shortly after the big bang occured. Say even a million or so years after the big bang, a sentient race emerged, that would give them oh about 13.9 billions years to advance and do things. It’s quite possible and actually again considering the size of the universe, more likely probable.

A millions year after the Big Bang doesn’t leave enough time for stars to have fused hydrogen down to heavier elements in their cores. It’s not long enough for a sufficient number of those stars to have novaed and spread the heavy elements around. Any life present at that time (if possible) would’ve been completely different from the one we know.

I like the second one better because having them come in from someplace else, means that the first trial either happened randomly or the creator had direct influence on how things went. Again, either is very possible, I just like the idea of them happening based on probability and chance rather than by a guided hand, ( or noodly appendage) :wink:

V

Having the Intelligent Designer be and ancient race of space faring beings doesn’t really solve anything. You still need to figure out how they got started. And it doesn’t support punctual interference on their part to guide the evolution process along either. Unless you can produce one of those being for an interview.[/quote]

I agree, especially to the point that none of my “possibilities” listed, are even close to science, just speculations based on possible and or probable aspects of things we can’t prove. This is where I find things the most fun, it’s somewhat like philosophy in that it’s all just mental mastrabation, but some things are more likely than others. Based on the fact that there is life on earth, and that there is water on other planetary type masses in our own solar system, combined with the hundreds of trillions of stars in the universe, I find that it is very very likley that life exists elswhere.

I’d also like to point out that we are not the only intelligent life on earth, just the MOST intelligent. This makes it likley in my mind that there is other intelligent life in the univers as well. If they have the ability to exert thier will and intelligence over thier environment like we do, I.E. hands etc. then it is likley that they will advance in a similar fashion, learning about thier respective environments and using it to thier advantage.

Not that any of that has anything to do with intelligent design, but what i’m getting at is that if our development on earth was somehow guided, I think it would be an advanced race of beings, rather than the hand of god or the creator.

I also love to read the current theories about aliens and such, the greys, the draconis, etc… it’s fun almost like a good science fiction novel, only there is a possibility that is it actual reality. Not that i’d actually go get myself one of those personal foce fields made up of an einstein rosen bridge, but it’s interesting stuff nonetheless.

V

Intelligent design is nothing more than a thinly vieled attempt to introduce religion back into the classroom.
They support the belief in a creator by saying things like humans are inhierantly too complex to be created through natural means. This is a take off on the bilogists Behe’s work, however, I digress.
Careful examination of the complexity implies a creator shows a circular logic. Who created the creator? Only another one could and thus recursion begins on genesis of him/her/it.
there are serious logical holes in this belief and belongs in the field of pseudo science with astrology.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m sure some of the physicists can pipe up, but I’ve always found the “Goldilocks perfect” items discussed in this article to be a more compelling argument for ID than anything having to do with specific biological structures like the eye - BTW, let me reiterate that, to my understanding, ID and evolution are not incompatible, though ID isn’t necessarily “science” either:

I agree. I can’t understand how the concept of chaos fits in with the large amount of order that has created what we know of the universe. That is an amazing number of hits on “just right”. I wrote before it is like believing that if you are in enough car accidents, eventually one of those crashes will result in a brand new Beemer with 20" rims, an MP3 player in the dash and a brand new wax job.
[/quote]

Not to get into symantics, but being in insurance, the statement you gave technically happens all the time. If I buy replacement guarentee on my 4 year old beamer that has 20" rims, an MP3 player etc… and I get in a crash, the insurance company buys me a new beamer.

I think what your getting at is that the car would magically appear or something, or your car would somehow change into a beamer instead of a pile of rubble. This goes back into zero possibility and at least some possibility. I think that anything that has some possibility on a large enough scale of attempts will eventually happen.

Say you were floating out in space and threw an egg at random down at the earth. Say there was an X on the ground, say a foot by a fott wide. If you threw the egg, it is sure possible for the egg to land on the X. It is insanely improbable, but if you repeated the throw a hundred trillion times, i’m quite sure you’d hit the x a few times.

The whole universe is set up for random advancement, if the creator only had an interest in life on earth, why did she/him/it make the other hundred trillion star systems and millions of galaxies? Especially when we look at the sheer enormity of it all, not to mention, the imigas we have are almost 14 billion years old, so in 14 billion years, the actual objects themselves have moved that much farther away. The actual size of the universe at this very given point could very well be in the trillions of light years in actual size. So why make something of that magnitude when your only interested in the earth and humans?

V

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I agree. I can’t understand how the concept of chaos fits in with the large amount of order that has created what we know of the universe. That is an amazing number of hits on “just right”. I wrote before it is like believing that if you are in enough car accidents, eventually one of those crashes will result in a brand new Beemer with 20" rims, an MP3 player in the dash and a brand new wax job.
[/quote] Depending on what you believe about collapsing wave functions and how that applies to higher orders of matter, it becomes easily conceivable there are untold numbers of universes, much like BB?s article asserts, in which case, a good portion of the other universes with consciousness in them are wondering about ?Goldilocks Perfect? phenomenon, even the one where every car accident does result in a shiny new beemer. When everything isn?t just possible but a certainty, chaos becomes very conceivable. Also, in my mind, this idea makes for a much more interesting deity as well, one capable of creating, understanding, and manipulating countless universes. Makes the idea of an ?intelligence? jabbing its fingers in evolution seem laughable. Depending on what you believe.

[quote]
Professor X wrote:
I agree. I can’t understand how the concept of chaos fits in with the large amount of order that has created what we know of the universe. That is an amazing number of hits on “just right”. I wrote before it is like believing that if you are in enough car accidents, eventually one of those crashes will result in a brand new Beemer with 20" rims, an MP3 player in the dash and a brand new wax job.

lucasa wrote:
Depending on what you believe about collapsing wave functions and how that applies to higher orders of matter, it becomes easily conceivable there are untold numbers of universes, much like BB?s article asserts, in which case, a good portion of the other universes with consciousness in them are wondering about ?Goldilocks Perfect? phenomenon, even the one where every car accident does result in a shiny new beemer. When everything isn?t just possible but a certainty, chaos becomes very conceivable. Also, in my mind, this idea makes for a much more interesting deity as well, one capable of creating, understanding, and manipulating countless universes. Makes the idea of an ?intelligence? jabbing its fingers in evolution seem laughable. Depending on what you believe. [/quote]

You would definitely need an infinite number of universes, as our universe does not seem to be infinite – and in fact seems much smaller than we thought a few decades ago.

And given that the idea of infinite unseen universes is at least as speculative as the idea of an “intelligence”, I guess its a matter of preference at which hypo you think sounds more plausible – though I guess they aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive…

The thing I hate about these arguments is the impossibility of convincing anyone of anything.

We all believe what we believe, and for the most part, nothing is going to change that.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Do you think that the location of the eye has anything to do with it?

http://divemad.com/Squid_Eye_Z.jpg

Our eyes compensate for each other and the blind spot is ONLY located when one eye is closed. This wouldn’t be the case if we had one eye on each side of our heads…as is the case with the squid. Squids can focus each eye independantly…however, because of location again, they would need this ability.[/quote]

Lucasa pretty much summed it up on page 1.

But I’ll add some more questions: If the IDer knew how to design a squid’s (octopus’) eye, why didn’t Mr/Ms IDer use the same design for us? I reiterate, why design something that needs fudging from the brain in order to work properly? This, to me, shows random evolution at work. The human eye model would not have served the squid/octopus, so it had to evolve along a different line to be what it is today.

Also, octopuses cannot change the shape of their lenses to focus (like humans can), they have to move the whole, rigid lense back and forth in order to focus on objects at different distances. In Evolutionary Theory this is called convergent evolution; I don’t know what ID calls it (if it dares give it a name), but I ask: why design two different methods to accomplish the same task (focussing)?

Another peculiarity of our 8-tentacled friends is that their slit-shaped pupils are always parallel to the ground, whatever the orientation of their bodies. Of course, it’s to be expected that an efficient IDer would bestow this useful capability on an octopus, that lives and moves in a 3-dimensional world…but…there are types of octopuses that don’t live in open water, they spend their whole lives on the sea bed; and guess what, their eyes also remain horizintal. Why? Not because they need it, but because their distant ancestors once lived in open waters, away from the sea bed.

Why do ID proponents keep presenting the eye as proof of ID? To me it seems like the complete opposite!

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
You would definitely need an infinite number of universes, as our universe does not seem to be infinite – and in fact seems much smaller than we thought a few decades ago.

And given that the idea of infinite unseen universes is at least as speculative as the idea of an “intelligence”, I guess its a matter of preference at which hypo you think sounds more plausible – though I guess they aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive…[/quote]

Actually, this is part of what aggravates me about ID and the way it is proposed in juxtapostion to evolution. Advanced quantum physics is much more open to speculation and literal guess work than biology and evolution. Personally, I believe it’s because Buddhism and Taoism (Yin and yang “a.k.a.” wave and particle) are already somewhat entrenched in this area and because most ID proponents want science to “prove” THEIR religion. This is why I pontificated on my third point and something that most of the ID proponents I interact with don’t realize is that by tossing religion to science, you are “rolling the dice” with your religion, an objective scientist is going to put Vodun, Paganism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and every other religion together and pull out the ones and parts that best fit the data, whether you like it or not. Most don’t like the idea of a religion where the Earth rests on a amphibian’s back being more applicable to the real world than one where immolated shrubbery command men, but a true scientist wouldn’t care. Maybe we could start a “separation church and science” thread too (Maybe this is it)?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have seen even better on pigs. I hope no one thinks that anyone who believes in God automatically doesn’t believe in the advancements of gene research. I have personally worked on gene research where I had to grow the bacteria used to splice the thrombomodulin gene into mice in order to shut it off.[/quote]
Sorry Prof., I didn’t mean to “talk down”, I wasn’t aware of your familiarity of what you were suggesting or the fact that it has been done (higher organism body parts on lower order species). As far as genetic enhancements and god being mutually exclusive, I am of a split mind. When doing science, religion is best left at the door (ethics aside). Being more of a scientific man myself, I find lots of religions require one to put logic and science on hold as well. However, I don’t believe that one person cannot follow both science and religion. Maybe just not both at the same time.