Detroit or California?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
“…The race issue is a red herring when it comes to Detroit. Detroit isn’t broke because it has an African American majority; it is broke because for decades its politicians have spent more money than they had, and because Detroit never figured out how to reinvent itself as it lost its industrial core…”

This needs to be emphasized…and REemphasized…

Mufasa[/quote]

The void left in the steel valley is huge , there is no one industry that could fill it .It would probably take hudreds of products just to fill the void in Detroit.

22

With regards to Detroit, did the steel industry just migrate to places where they did not have to pay for expensive union labor?

With regards to the auto industry, did it just migrate to places where it did not have to pay for expensive union labor and retirement?

Common theme in both Cali and Detroit…Unions (at one time ENORMOUSLY important for workers safety and regulation) has now turned into a death sentence for the majority of companies who have to use them.

Utah has a strong no union approach (with the exception of plumbing and electrical) and we have new companies moving factories here every day. Proctor & Gamble, C.R. Bard, GE OEC Medical…ect.

23

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
With regards to Detroit, did the steel industry just migrate to places where they did not have to pay for expensive union labor?

With regards to the auto industry, did it just migrate to places where it did not have to pay for expensive union labor and retirement?

Common theme in both Cali and Detroit…Unions (at one time ENORMOUSLY important for workers safety and regulation) has now turned into a death sentence for the majority of companies who have to use them.

Utah has a strong no union approach (with the exception of plumbing and electrical) and we have new companies moving factories here every day. Proctor & Gamble, C.R. Bard, GE OEC Medical…ect.

[/quote]

IMO the unions were Reagan’s enemy, Reagan saw any Union as an adversary.Reagan opened the door to steel import. Imports were coming in from all countries including third world countries . I know first hand the air scrubbers required in America were expensive to operate .

IMO Unions built America’s middle class. Before Unions you had the Rich and the poor . IMO we will have to get back to that before the masses see the advantage of organized labor

24

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
With regards to Detroit, did the steel industry just migrate to places where they did not have to pay for expensive union labor?

With regards to the auto industry, did it just migrate to places where it did not have to pay for expensive union labor and retirement?

Common theme in both Cali and Detroit…Unions (at one time ENORMOUSLY important for workers safety and regulation) has now turned into a death sentence for the majority of companies who have to use them.

Utah has a strong no union approach (with the exception of plumbing and electrical) and we have new companies moving factories here every day. Proctor & Gamble, C.R. Bard, GE OEC Medical…ect.

[/quote]

IMO the unions were Reagan’s enemy, Reagan saw any Union as an adversary.Reagan opened the door to steel import. Imports were coming in from all countries including third world countries . I know first hand the air scrubbers required in America were expensive to operate .

IMO Unions built America’s middle class. Before Unions you had the Rich and the poor . IMO we will have to get back to that before the masses see the advantage of organized labor[/quote]

as gas/oil prices go up so does the cost to ship steel to this country… as a result most of the steel used in this country is made or atleast rolled here. The only country that sends steel here is south america and they roll it here in Mobile, Al. The american steel companies sell their messed up steel or any extra they have to the chinese as they will buy anything. The only real lose in steel production the last few years was a downturn in the economey so less steel was needed to make goods… most smaller steel mills are fine and most blast furnace mills are also doing well now…

The environmental for steel companies in negligable once you put it in and lets be honest, no one needs to breath that so its not unreasonable to filter it, besides, most of it ends up mixxed with slag and tar and used to pave roads in mexico.

steel companies moved to better bussiness climates (southern US), got away from unions, got cheaper power, and moved to where the building was happening since steel shipping is a major cost in the steel (most auto companies moved south or foriegn companies built here…) Alabama for instance has 3 large steel mills 2 from Nucor and 1 from US Steel. we also have mercedes, honda, hyundia and something else i cant remember

25

Cali has better climate than Detroit.

Cali will survive the coming zombie apocalypse.

any questions?

26

[quote]Ratchet wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
With regards to Detroit, did the steel industry just migrate to places where they did not have to pay for expensive union labor?

With regards to the auto industry, did it just migrate to places where it did not have to pay for expensive union labor and retirement?

Common theme in both Cali and Detroit…Unions (at one time ENORMOUSLY important for workers safety and regulation) has now turned into a death sentence for the majority of companies who have to use them.

Utah has a strong no union approach (with the exception of plumbing and electrical) and we have new companies moving factories here every day. Proctor & Gamble, C.R. Bard, GE OEC Medical…ect.

[/quote]

IMO the unions were Reagan’s enemy, Reagan saw any Union as an adversary.Reagan opened the door to steel import. Imports were coming in from all countries including third world countries . I know first hand the air scrubbers required in America were expensive to operate .

IMO Unions built America’s middle class. Before Unions you had the Rich and the poor . IMO we will have to get back to that before the masses see the advantage of organized labor[/quote]

as gas/oil prices go up so does the cost to ship steel to this country… as a result most of the steel used in this country is made or atleast rolled here. The only country that sends steel here is south america and they roll it here in Mobile, Al. The american steel companies sell their messed up steel or any extra they have to the chinese as they will buy anything. The only real lose in steel production the last few years was a downturn in the economey so less steel was needed to make goods… most smaller steel mills are fine and most blast furnace mills are also doing well now…

The environmental for steel companies in negligable once you put it in and lets be honest, no one needs to breath that so its not unreasonable to filter it, besides, most of it ends up mixxed with slag and tar and used to pave roads in mexico.

steel companies moved to better bussiness climates (southern US), got away from unions, got cheaper power, and moved to where the building was happening since steel shipping is a major cost in the steel (most auto companies moved south or foriegn companies built here…) Alabama for instance has 3 large steel mills 2 from Nucor and 1 from US Steel. we also have mercedes, honda, hyundia and something else i cant remember

[/quote]

Fuel was cheap in the 80s, the out come may have been different today. My job takes me in a lot of mills , never in AL though. The difference to day is the amount of mills that exist . Warren Youngstown area in Ohio had from memory 15 or 20 mills . I worked at a medium sized mill that employed as I remember 1100. Now that area is working on 3 generations of uneducated unemployed men . It has big Ghettos nothing to do but drugs and kill each other

27

God knows I hate even mentioning this, because I worry about my retirement almost every day.

But as you look at Cities, States and even Private companies; perhaps the biggest “liabilities” they have and/or had were/are Pensions, Retirements, and the spiraling-out-of-control medical cost for retirees.

EVERYTHING seemed to be predicated on three (maybe more) very bad assumptions:

  1. There would “always” be a greater worker/retiree ratio

  2. We are America. Our economy may have some “blips” here and there; but will always be strong AND

  3. Certain sectors are almost “immune” to economic pressures and/or competition. (e.g. municipalities/Postal Service).

If you guys want to see where all three are playing out in almost a “perfect storm”; look at a) almost any large U.S. city and b) the painful and tortuous struggle going on currently with the U.S. Postal Service.

Thoughts?

Mufasa

29

That’s what it seems like, Push…

And it makes me cringe. The money simply isn’t there.

Mufasa

30

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
That’s what it seems like, Push…

And it makes me cringe. The money simply isn’t there.

Mufasa[/quote]

If that is any help, the money can be printed.

Frankly, I have no problem with this whatsover. This is a whole generation that expected to live at someone elses expense, their own children and grandchildren even.

Fuck them.

I waste as much compassion for them as I would for a slave owner if his human livestock went away.

31

Dirty, rotten parasites.

32

[quote]Edgy wrote:
Cali has better climate than Detroit.

Cali will survive the coming zombie apocalypse.

any questions?[/quote]

No way, Jose.

While the climate is good, those pampered crybabies are nothing but walking Zombie snacks.

Vermont or Montana should do much better.

Or Texas.

In the case of a Zombiecalpyse you would probably be riddled with bullets if you so much as sneezed.

33

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
That’s what it seems like, Push…

And it makes me cringe. The money simply isn’t there.

Mufasa[/quote]

If that is any help, the money can be printed.

Frankly, I have no problem with this whatsover. This is a whole generation that expected to live at someone elses expense, their own children and grandchildren even.

Fuck them.

I waste as much compassion for them as I would for a slave owner if his human livestock went away.[/quote]

I partially agree with you here, only one thing. These slave owners you describe have also been robbed and deceived. On one hand - yea “fuck them”, it was obviously wrong. But on the other hand - they never really knew what they were getting into

34

[quote]squating_bear wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
That’s what it seems like, Push…

And it makes me cringe. The money simply isn’t there.

Mufasa[/quote]

If that is any help, the money can be printed.

Frankly, I have no problem with this whatsover. This is a whole generation that expected to live at someone elses expense, their own children and grandchildren even.

Fuck them.

I waste as much compassion for them as I would for a slave owner if his human livestock went away.[/quote]

I partially agree with you here, only one thing. These slave owners you describe have also been robbed and deceived. On one hand - yea “fuck them”, it was obviously wrong. But on the other hand - they never really knew what they were getting into[/quote]

They wanted to live off off someone elses labor.

They, for crying out loud, trusted politicians.

Fuck em.

With a branding iron.

35

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
But as you look at Cities, States and even Private companies; perhaps the biggest “liabilities” they have and/or had were/are Pensions, Retirements, and the spiraling-out-of-control medical cost for retirees.
[/quote]

This is not a new development. We have known for at LEAST 20 years that there will be too many old people in the future. It is just that nobody bothered to address the problem back when it could have been solved without too much sacrifice.

Instead of building real wealth we used our money to speculate. Speculate in the stock market. Speculate in the housing market. Speculate in the derivatives and commodities markets. Speculate Speculate Speculate.

And if you think the US has it bad just look at nations like China. In China over the next 50 years you will have 1 man supporting his wife, his wifes two parents, his two parents, and his own children. It is happening even now. The chinese at least have an excuse as to why they haven’t done anything about it. They have been incredibly poor and are only now coming into real wealth.

I am actually far more concerned with the youth of today. The under 30’s. They will be the ones paying for our mistakes and poor choices.

36

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Edgy wrote:
Cali has better climate than Detroit.

Cali will survive the coming zombie apocalypse.

any questions?[/quote]

No way, Jose.

While the climate is good, those pampered crybabies are nothing but walking Zombie snacks.

Vermont or Montana should do much better.

Or Texas.

In the case of a Zombiecalpyse you would probably be riddled with bullets if you so much as sneezed. [/quote]

Besides, Zombies have no blood flow, parts will just break off in the cold with enough force applied.

37

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
God knows I hate even mentioning this, because I worry about my retirement almost every day.

But as you look at Cities, States and even Private companies; perhaps the biggest “liabilities” they have and/or had were/are Pensions, Retirements, and the spiraling-out-of-control medical cost for retirees.

EVERYTHING seemed to be predicated on three (maybe more) very bad assumptions:

  1. There would “always” be a greater worker/retiree ratio

  2. We are America. Our economy may have some “blips” here and there; but will always be strong AND

  3. Certain sectors are almost “immune” to economic pressures and/or competition. (e.g. municipalities/Postal Service).

If you guys want to see where all three are playing out in almost a “perfect storm”; look at a) almost any large U.S. city and b) the painful and tortuous struggle going on currently with the U.S. Postal Service.

Thoughts?

Mufasa[/quote]

Pensions and retirement benefits killed the Auto Industry, the Unions, The Postal Service, apparently the State of California…my mother is going to retire (worked for the federal government) and she will receive 70% of the of her salary for her highest 5 year average…FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE.

Gee, I wonder why we are going broke.

38

@ UT Lama there are some down sides to Unions but you just have to look at the down sides with no unions . The shrinking middle class has to be first on the list

39

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ UT Lama there are some down sides to Unions but you just have to look at the down sides with no unions . The shrinking middle class has to be first on the list[/quote]

I have no problem with Unions, as long as they allow the business to remain competitive on a global scale.

But the benefits that Unions demand do not allow this.

The unions may have helped protect the worker early in this century…but they effectively became victims of their own hubris at the end of it.

40

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ UT Lama there are some down sides to Unions but you just have to look at the down sides with no unions . The shrinking middle class has to be first on the list[/quote]

I have no problem with Unions, as long as they allow the business to remain competitive on a global scale.

But the benefits that Unions demand do not allow this.

The unions may have helped protect the worker early in this century…but they effectively became victims of their own hubris at the end of it.[/quote]

labor is a commodity and like everything else has different value in different locations . Ideally Employers would be kind to labor but most Businesses are predatory , seeing labor as something to exploit. Hence middle class vanishes