Decline of Evangelical America

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
towards the kind of social progress we, as a species, will need to survive our own stupidity.
[/quote]

Seeing as religion in one form or another, has been involved in, if not the major reason for, society as we know it since mankind could communicate, I’m not really sure what this statement is supposed to mean.

One man’s death, 2000 years ago, effects the lives of about 3 billion people today… You are fooling yourself if you think “religion” is going away.

Man has always worshiped something, this isn’t going to change any time soon. What they worship might, but faith itself isn’t.[/quote]

Religion is a relic of ancient times; and fundamentalism a testament to our collective immaturity. Mankind will, at some point in time, bring itself to the brink of extinction and I believe that religious fundamentalism, and especially the kind of mindset that requires it, lies at the heart of that downfall.
[/quote]

I believe you are missing the point I’m trying to make. Because the “brink of extinction” will only strenghten “the kind of mindset” you speak out against.

Again, one man, one, dies on a cross 2000 years ago, and that event still effects the lives of billions, I repeat, billions of people today… How anyone can honestly think religion is a relic is beyond me.

Hate it all you want, but understand it isn’t going anywhere. It is only going to change.[/quote]

No, you’re missing the point beans. In Holland religion grows more meaningless by the year. Therefore, by projection ephrem thinks that it should be this way everywhere.

“It’s a relic of the past I tell you…bla bla bla”

New age wonder boys always amuse me.

22

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Religion is a relic of ancient times; and fundamentalism a testament to our collective immaturity. Mankind will, at some point in time, bring itself to the brink of extinction and I believe that religious fundamentalism, and especially the kind of mindset that requires it, lies at the heart of that downfall.
[/quote]

I believe you are missing the point I’m trying to make. Because the “brink of extinction” will only strenghten “the kind of mindset” you speak out against.

Again, one man, one, dies on a cross 2000 years ago, and that event still effects the lives of billions, I repeat, billions of people today… How anyone can honestly think religion is a relic is beyond me.

Hate it all you want, but understand it isn’t going anywhere. It is only going to change.[/quote]

Gautama Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed were all men who still affect people to this day, that is true. But I would say that the negative aspects of institutionalised religion far outweigh the benefits.

We can see that, when a region or country’s wealth increases and the standard of living increases, that region or country becomes secular. It would stand to reason that, when the majority of the planet’s population reaches a certain standard of wealth, the need for religion as something to fall back on diminishes.

While faith and religion can not be eradicated, and I don’t think that’s something to strive for, I do hope that in time religion becomes personal again, where your relationship with god does not depend on adherence to scripture, which church you go to or to which sect you belong.

I also realise that probably won’t happen in my lifetime.

23

[quote]smh23 wrote:
The yearnings which religious belief seeks to satisfy seem to be permanent symptoms of the human condition…

[/quote]

24

There are a lot of powerful ideas out there.
It’s ignorant to put the fairy tales on a pedestal.
The “guy who invented the wheel” (so to speak) certainly changed more then a divine story.

And since at one point monotheism was really just a conveniant component of politics, you could have switched the Jesus myth with that of Sol or Tamuz or Mythras.
Would this have changed a lot? I doubt it.

And what about ruthless motherfuckers like Gengiz Khan or Stalin? Powerful figures no doubt.
They certainly influenced history and mankind more then most religions could ever hope for.

So it should be clear that just the magnitude of trouble an idea, movement or vision potntially inflicts is not a benchmark for humanity, just an obstacle on a path for higher cognition.

Evangelical America has got only empty hands, but it was always so.
Relgious commandments are, at best, merely the lowest hanging fruit of a society’s moral insights (“let’s not kill…) and it always came with terrible baggage (…else we shall burn in hell”).

To venture further, humanity has find better ways.

We are a very young ape species. 2000 years is not much.
If we turn out lucky and wise, we might pull a couple hundred thousand more.

Then 2000 years become even less: a short, confusing period of our species’ chaotic childhood.

25

^ More atheist nonsense.

Young atheists from all around the world (at least on this board) don’t really know anything about God or Christ. And certainly nothing about Evangelical America. But, keep one very important thing in mind. None of that will prevent them from spilling their drivel all over the message board.

26

Show me why someone should care about “God or Christ” when one could care about humanity.

Why is it so bad when “Evangelical America” stumbles? Will there be no US-Americans left?

When the Sassanid Empire fell, swept up by a monotheistic hurricane, did the people rejoice?

Hooray, at least we’ll learn some proper morals?

Do you mourn the Sassanids - they ran shit longer then “Evangelical America”.

It’s just a historical period, in time, a footnote.

Of course, historicity, former ally, is now an arch-enemy of religion.
Which is rather painfully obvious when I’m arguing over [i]the internet[i] with you -once more- about what is essentially a goat-herders manual.

27

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Show me why someone should care about “God or Christ” when one could care about humanity.

Why is it so bad when “Evangelical America” stumbles? Will there be no US-Americans left?

When the Sassanid Empire fell, swept up by a monotheistic hurricane, did the people rejoice?

Hooray, at least we’ll learn some proper morals?

Do you mourn the Sassanids - they ran shit longer then “Evangelical America”.

It’s just a historical period, in time, a footnote.

Of course, historicity, former ally, is now an arch-enemy of religion.
Which is rather painfully obvious when I’m arguing over the internet with you -once more- about what is essentially a goat-herders manual.
[/quote]

Except that nobody cared about humanity before Christ.

Before Christ’s “Love your ennemy” the best “care” you could get was the Lex Talionis.
And before Galatians 3:28, there was simply no concept of Humanity.
Families, tribes, clans, gangs, ethnies, trades, nations, yes. Empires at best. But no Humanity.

Secular humanism is, ironically, a prodigal son of Christianity.

28

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Show me why someone should care about “God or Christ” when one could care about humanity.

Why is it so bad when “Evangelical America” stumbles? Will there be no US-Americans left?

When the Sassanid Empire fell, swept up by a monotheistic hurricane, did the people rejoice?

Hooray, at least we’ll learn some proper morals?

Do you mourn the Sassanids - they ran shit longer then “Evangelical America”.

It’s just a historical period, in time, a footnote.

Of course, historicity, former ally, is now an arch-enemy of religion.
Which is rather painfully obvious when I’m arguing over the internet with you -once more- about what is essentially a goat-herders manual.
[/quote]

Except that nobody cared about humanity before Christ.

Before Christ’s “Love your ennemy” the best “care” you could get was the Lex Talionis.
And before Galatians 3:28, there was simply no concept of Humanity.
Families, tribes, clans, gangs, ethnies, trades, nations, yes. Empires at best. But no Humanity.

Secular humanism is, ironically, a prodigal son of Christianity.

[/quote]

Insert Titans and Olympians joke here

29

[quote]treco wrote:
It is God’s work to draw and convert the lost to Himself.
It is the evangelicals’ job to witness this salvation of themselves by proclamation and in discipleship.

We have a burden because we are looking at our own inability ‘to save the sinner’, yet we shirk the role that God has given us in this task.

Where is the utter dependence on God to bring the increase?
Where is the heartfelt and knee-bound prayer over the lost?
Where is the passion for living a righteous example?
Where is the sacrificial giving to fund evangelism?
Where is the teaching of the living word which when cast upon the waters, does not return void?

Christian - when was the last time you shared the gospel AND how it had changed your own life?

Thank you Father for your saving grace.
[/quote]Very Good. My knee bound prayer for the lost occurs daily and I last shared with a sinner how the risen Christ transformed me from an abhorrent lowlife into a child of the most high God about 4 hours ago.

[quote]nickj_777 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I think I’ve been saying this for a very long time Chris. That WAS me blaming this country’s decline on a whoring compromising modernist church wasn’t it? Yep I thought so. I don’t even have to look at the NYT article. Like I say. I can’t wait. I hope I live long enough to see the glorious American church that will be left after the refiners fire has burned the modernist heretics away. That will be some sweet sweet prayer and worship indeed.[/quote]

I am sorry I do not understand what “the refiners fire has burned the modernist heretics away,” means. Can you please explain? Are you referring to a purging of society of heretics? Are you referring to a day of judgement where those who are not deemed worthy are extinguished from the Earth? Are you welcoming of such a day where there is a religious purification of America?

I do not want to presume anything here to cast judgement at all. I am just unclear if you believe that the death of millions who do not accord to your religious beliefs is a good thing or not.

Cheers.[/quote]As I’m using it here the refiner’s fire refers to any work of God whereby He brings hardship and persecution upon those claiming His name to drive out the ones who honor Him with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him. There are areas in the world I know people in where just assembling to proclaim and worship Jesus can get you and your family killed. We have people in a couple of those places. I hope to be able to visit one day and be humbled in the presence of saints who KNOW what it means to give themselves utterly into His hands. As much as I love my church we have never known that level of commitment. It’s getting more and more costly to actually follow Christ in this country. I don’t mean show up at some castrated compromising den of evolutionary idolatry. I mean to actually be faithful to God and His word. By the end of my lifetime, should I be allowed to live it out naturally, we should probably be there. It can’t come soon enough for me.

30

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
There are a lot of powerful ideas out there.
It’s ignorant to put the fairy tales on a pedestal.
The “guy who invented the wheel” (so to speak) certainly changed more then a divine story.

And since at one point monotheism was really just a conveniant component of politics, you could have switched the Jesus myth with that of Sol or Tamuz or Mythras.
Would this have changed a lot? I doubt it.

And what about ruthless motherfuckers like Gengiz Khan or Stalin? Powerful figures no doubt.
They certainly influenced history and mankind more then most religions could ever hope for.

So it should be clear that just the magnitude of trouble an idea, movement or vision potntially inflicts is not a benchmark for humanity, just an obstacle on a path for higher cognition.

Evangelical America has got only empty hands, but it was always so.
Relgious commandments are, at best, merely the lowest hanging fruit of a society’s moral insights (“let’s not kill…) and it always came with terrible baggage (…else we shall burn in hell”).

To venture further, humanity has find better ways.

We are a very young ape species. 2000 years is not much.
If we turn out lucky and wise, we might pull a couple hundred thousand more.

Then 2000 years become even less: a short, confusing period of our species’ chaotic childhood. [/quote]

^ This X 1000. Sehr schön!

31

[quote]ZEB wrote:
^ More atheist nonsense.

Young atheists from all around the world (at least on this board) don’t really know anything about God or Christ. And certainly nothing about Evangelical America. But, keep one very important thing in mind. None of that will prevent them from spilling their drivel all over the message board.[/quote]

^ More bronze age nonsense.

Old fundamentalist Christians from all around the world (at least on this board) don’t really know anything about freethinking philosophies or scientific inquiry. And certainly nothing about Secular America. But, keep one very important thing in mind. None of this will prevent them from spilling their dribble all over the message board.

32

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Religion is a relic of ancient times; and fundamentalism a testament to our collective immaturity. Mankind will, at some point in time, bring itself to the brink of extinction and I believe that religious fundamentalism, and especially the kind of mindset that requires it, lies at the heart of that downfall.
[/quote]

I believe you are missing the point I’m trying to make. Because the “brink of extinction” will only strenghten “the kind of mindset” you speak out against.

Again, one man, one, dies on a cross 2000 years ago, and that event still effects the lives of billions, I repeat, billions of people today… How anyone can honestly think religion is a relic is beyond me.

Hate it all you want, but understand it isn’t going anywhere. It is only going to change.[/quote]

Gautama Buddha, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed were all men who still affect people to this day, that is true. But I would say that the negative aspects of institutionalised religion far outweigh the benefits.

We can see that, when a region or country’s wealth increases and the standard of living increases, that region or country becomes secular. It would stand to reason that, when the majority of the planet’s population reaches a certain standard of wealth, the need for religion as something to fall back on diminishes.

While faith and religion can not be eradicated, and I don’t think that’s something to strive for, I do hope that in time religion becomes personal again, where your relationship with god does not depend on adherence to scripture, which church you go to or to which sect you belong.

I also realise that probably won’t happen in my lifetime.[/quote]

You are confusing man’s need for religion and society’s need for government.

Just because a government is or becomes secular, doesn’t mean the people it governs will become a-thiest. A secular government is superior simply because it is more likely to protect the natural rights of Freedom of Religion than a government with a state church.

Man kind has, since the dawn of recorded history, and even speculated beyond that, believed in “something”. Whatever name, lable or story you attach to the belief is almost irrelevant to the point I’m making.

Nothing has changed so drastically in the last 30-50 years that is going to stop people from believing. The only change you can hope for is a different variation of the the same system man has been faithful to since the dawn of civilization.

33

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
There are a lot of powerful ideas out there.
It’s ignorant to put the fairy tales on a pedestal.
The “guy who invented the wheel” (so to speak) certainly changed more then a divine story.

And since at one point monotheism was really just a conveniant component of politics, you could have switched the Jesus myth with that of Sol or Tamuz or Mythras.
Would this have changed a lot? I doubt it.

And what about ruthless motherfuckers like Gengiz Khan or Stalin? Powerful figures no doubt.
They certainly influenced history and mankind more then most religions could ever hope for.

So it should be clear that just the magnitude of trouble an idea, movement or vision potntially inflicts is not a benchmark for humanity, just an obstacle on a path for higher cognition.

Evangelical America has got only empty hands, but it was always so.
Relgious commandments are, at best, merely the lowest hanging fruit of a society’s moral insights (“let’s not kill…) and it always came with terrible baggage (…else we shall burn in hell”).

To venture further, humanity has find better ways.

We are a very young ape species. 2000 years is not much.
If we turn out lucky and wise, we might pull a couple hundred thousand more.

Then 2000 years become even less: a short, confusing period of our species’ chaotic childhood. [/quote]

^ This X 1000. Sehr sch�¶n![/quote]

Legion, you are smarter than this.

His post not only misses my point by focusing on silly specifics and small sample examples, but it is so arrogant and short sighted he destroys his own arguement by making it.

34

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
There are a lot of powerful ideas out there.
It’s ignorant to put the fairy tales on a pedestal.
The “guy who invented the wheel” (so to speak) certainly changed more then a divine story.

And since at one point monotheism was really just a convenient component of politics, you could have switched the Jesus myth with that of Sol or Tamuz or Mythras.
Would this have changed a lot? I doubt it.

And what about ruthless motherfuckers like Gengiz Khan or Stalin? Powerful figures no doubt.
They certainly influenced history and mankind more then most religions could ever hope for.

So it should be clear that just the magnitude of trouble an idea, movement or vision potentially inflicts is not a benchmark for humanity, just an obstacle on a path for higher cognition.

Evangelical America has got only empty hands, but it was always so.
Religious commandments are, at best, merely the lowest hanging fruit of a society’s moral insights (“let’s not kill…) and it always came with terrible baggage (…else we shall burn in hell”).

To venture further, humanity has find better ways.

We are a very young ape species. 2000 years is not much.
If we turn out lucky and wise, we might pull a couple hundred thousand more.

Then 2000 years become even less: a short, confusing period of our species’ chaotic childhood. [/quote]

^ This X 1000. Sehr sch�?�¶n![/quote]

Legion, you are smarter than this.

His post not only misses my point by focusing on silly specifics and small sample examples, but it is so arrogant and short sighted he destroys his own argument by making it.[/quote]
I had to properly amend your statement. I’m sure you’ll understand.

35

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
There are a lot of powerful ideas out there.
It’s ignorant to put the fairy tales on a pedestal.
The “guy who invented the wheel” (so to speak) certainly changed more then a divine story.

And since at one point monotheism was really just a conveniant component of politics, you could have switched the Jesus myth with that of Sol or Tamuz or Mythras.
Would this have changed a lot? I doubt it.

And what about ruthless motherfuckers like Gengiz Khan or Stalin? Powerful figures no doubt.
They certainly influenced history and mankind more then most religions could ever hope for.

So it should be clear that just the magnitude of trouble an idea, movement or vision potntially inflicts is not a benchmark for humanity, just an obstacle on a path for higher cognition.

Evangelical America has got only empty hands, but it was always so.
Relgious commandments are, at best, merely the lowest hanging fruit of a society’s moral insights (“let’s not kill…) and it always came with terrible baggage (…else we shall burn in hell”).

To venture further, humanity has find better ways.

We are a very young ape species. 2000 years is not much.
If we turn out lucky and wise, we might pull a couple hundred thousand more.

Then 2000 years become even less: a short, confusing period of our species’ chaotic childhood. [/quote]

^ This X 1000. Sehr sch�??�?�¶n![/quote]

Legion, you are smarter than this.

His post not only misses my point by focusing on silly specifics and small sample examples, but it is so arrogant and short sighted he destroys his own arguement by making it.[/quote]

Thank you for the compliment if it was genuine, that means something from a poster of demonstrated intelligence such as yourself Beans. Yeah, I believe that was the champagne/being around my staunchly conservative family for the break speaking.

36

[quote]Legionary wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
^ More atheist nonsense.

Young atheists from all around the world (at least on this board) don’t really know anything about God or Christ. And certainly nothing about Evangelical America. But, keep one very important thing in mind. None of that will prevent them from spilling their drivel all over the message board.[/quote]

^ More bronze age nonsense.

Old fundamentalist Christians from all around the world (at least on this board) don’t really know anything about freethinking philosophies or scientific inquiry. And certainly nothing about Secular America. But, keep one very important thing in mind. None of this will prevent them from spilling their dribble all over the message board.[/quote]

Are you saying that a concepts age affects its validity? I would beg to differ. We were given many mathematical concepts by the Greeks. about 2000 years ago, give or take. I could list things and concepts that are 100-1000 years old such as the wheel, the gravity constant, architecture, ad nauseum. Does that somehow make them less valid?

I will also point out that I am a scientist and engineer, my specialty being biomedical engineering, I have worked with leading industrial, academic and government scientists on things ranging from brain injury to explosive dynamics. I am also a Christian. Having faith and being intelligent are not diametrically opposed, as you seem to be suggesting.

37

[quote]Legionary wrote:

Thank you for the compliment if it was genuine, [/quote]

It is/was.

I do find humor in the neo-puritian, or secular puritian if you will. They are the same thing they hate and act out agaisnt, only they face a different direction.

38

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Imagine that religious fundamentalists in Iran or Saudi-Arabia lose their grip on society, and women and gays are granted equal rights. Imagine that these repressive societies become liberal. Wouldn’t you say that’s a good thing?

The only reason why you lament this happening in the US is that you are part of those religious fundamentalists who are losing power and influence to rational sanity.[/quote]

Are you talking to me or Tirib?[/quote]

Mostly T, but also to you as you seem to also place an inordinate amount of value on your religious beliefs.
[/quote]

Oh okay. I have no problem with religious fundamentalists lose their grip on society in the middle east…because their wrong. I have no problem with women and gays having equal rights. They are humans that have dignity after all, right?

However, if I didn’t have my inordinate amount of value towards my religious beliefs, my view of the world would be a lot less logical. For one I wouldn’t recommend or believe in equal rights…because that is inherently a Christian/Jewish virtue to treat everyone with dignity. The residue of just morality has stained Western Civilization.

39

I think evangelicals get a bad rap because of a few load mouth kooks who spout off at the mouth with out sense or reason for selfish gain. The vast majority of evangelicals I know are really good, reasonable, and fair minded, and, hold on to your hat, open minded.
Most of them think TV evangelists and loud mouth doomsday preachers are just as creepy as everybody else does.
The media and all these liberal hate groups have tried to paint them like a bunch of religious nuts because they don’t agree on political matters.

The lesson I take from it, is everyone stereotypes. It just depends on who you think your enemies are.