Oh, they are not beyond evidence. They are not deductively provable, beyond the shadow of a doubt. My personal experience is quite profound, but you’d be loathed to believe it I am sure. So I don’t bother with that part.
You should.
I wouldn’t be loathed to believe it, I just don’t quite understand how someone who claims to follow deductive logic and truths revealed by philosophy could justify such flimsy “evidence” as the basis for their beliefs. If you accept that as a form of evidence, you’d have to accept everyones personal experience as just as valid as yours right? Meaning if a person had a personal experience that directly contradicted yours, both of you would be justified in believing them as the truth, correct?
I was pointing out that your statement didn’t align with the definition. I simply asked where you got it, and you get defensive saying I don’t understand. Lol, ok.
No, you haven’t. Dodge, duck, dive, dip, and dodge all you want, you do not know how if the universe was caused or not… because (wait for it) nobody does. We know how it started to a point, but we (humanity) haven’t figured it out yet. Maybe one day, but an argument that uses assumptions is not proof.
Here you go again equating normal day science with astrophysics and philosophy. It doesn’t work that way. Just because we use time as a reference for all physics that affect us in the world today does not mean we can use that exact same understanding for the beginning of the universe and time itself.
Ya, I realize that now, you claim to follow the truth but will stick to your unproven beliefs with no evidence. This dead horse was kicked by SMH, H_Factor, and me way too many times for it to be worth it anymore.
Do you know anybody who doesn’t have contradictions? Just because I like deductive reasoning most of all in philosophy does not mean I don’t accept other forms of evidence. Plus, there way more then just what I experienced, there is also a rich, well documented history in theology. Most of which is available for free if one would just bother to look it up.
What irritates me is when people project what they think, I think, on me or religious people in general. It’s not a matter of gestation and rituals, there’s a lot more to it than that. Once people understand that, it becomes less bizarre.
I am not alone. The number of what we call Christian Apologists have grown exponentially in the past 2 decades. It’s their mission to tear down the lies that have been attributed to religious folk in post-modernist era. To tell us we’re evil and we belong to an evil history? Fuck off. (not to you)
Like when you said I would be loathe to hear what you believe?
It looks like we are at a cross roads where you are willing to accept certain things as evidence that I am not, and because of that a dialogue is impossible.
I think it’s likely many of us do, but when those are pointed out, plain as day, the people who are in the side of evidence and logic should do what they can to resolve that contradiction, not cling to it because they like the conclusion.
You’re contradiction free?
If you can point one I’ve made out to me I’ll do what I can to resolve it.
Why don’t you ever address my points instead of just deflecting back and avoiding them?
I think we’re talking past each other in this sense. I am speaking in a more gestalt observation of my own mortal weaknesses.
For instance, I in general am against the death penalty. However, if you are talking about my kids, I kill the bastard with my bare hands and sleep fine… contradiction.
As far as my philosophical certainty as a theist, as it relates to my faith. It’s actually quite linear, as for my faith in the theology is directly related to my certainty in the God’s existence. Theology is a philosophy, derived from the proposition that God does exist. Without that, theology is just trash.
This is not unlike other propositions, such as the nonmenological proposition on science that the history of cause and effect will represent the future predictions when you combine a set of properties to get a resultant effect, base on previous observation. I can expand further, it depends on how much you really want to hear.
In as much as as you have been civil, I have had to deal with the derision of those who do not understand the actual concepts, but use the opportunity to attack me personally. I can only guess this is personal hatred.
If you wish to discuss in civility, I will ablige in like manner. I will answer your questions in absence of derision. I don’t mind the hard, just the personal. Feel free to get specific if you you are curious. What do you really want to know?
Thank you for your questions. I will do my best to answer.
P.S. Done on a phone, forgive typos pls.
It’s not personal hatred it’s the frustration at having the exact same conversation so many times in the exact same manner. This quickly turned into a repeat of the SMH thread with you dodging what people say, saying your premises are proven, and saying you didn’t say words that you said.
People don’t have a personal hatred of Zepp but they do hate the way he posts the same thing over and over and won’t change if someone shows something that shows his argument to be flawed. Your arguments have been shown to be flawed time and time again by honestly at least 15 different forum members over a few years. And yet the same argument with the same dodgy and goal post changing style is what you present.
On this topic is all I speak of not your other posts. People don’t have personal hatred of you, but the manner of how you have posted on this topic over the years. It’s an almost exact replica of the SMH thread whether you want to admit or not. Your really trying all the same arguments and tactics and like then it takes you forever to admit when you are incorrect on something.
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Oh brother. You are so full of it. Bloviating about a conversation that happened more than 3 years ago, that if you even understood content, would understand has no relevance here, relying on your super hero to spout on about that which you do not know, while making no arguments on your own and holding my feet to the fire about something that is not in dispute or in conversation at the present is just getting personal. Where is your super hero to make claims for you? I don’t see him…
I remember you now… You used to follow me from thread to thread around that time, hurling insults at me any chance you could get like a middle school mean girl.
Well, the only solution I know how to deal with persistent trolls is to put them on the ignore list and block them. So that is what I am going to do with you. I will try to block you. I will certainly ignore you. So anything you write from here on out will never enter my consciousness again. Good riddance…
Lol. Perfectly on cue bumping this thread again after days.
You have a lot of people to block if you are going to cry every time someone proves you wrong. You’ve got about 11 in this thread to block alone. Which is fine with me if you put me on ignore I’d hate to miss the long copy and pastes from other people and you carrying on for tons of posts claiming you didn’t say something that you did say. I’ll also miss all the cuss words from the devout Christian you are.
And yes that thread has a lot of relevance you are making the exact same arguments as then. The thing is you can fixate on me all you want but look at all the other people who are telling you the exact same thing Pat. Mainly that you’ve gone down this road before and you’re doing the same thing you always do. Making the same arguments, having multiple people point out the issue with them while ignoring them.
You’ve got multiple people in this thread saying that you are trolling or wasting time with the same thing over and over which is EXACTLY what multiple people said in the giant thread I linked where you did the same thing. If it helps you to think the problem with your posting is me that’s fine. But you should really have the intellectual honesty to realize that when so many people are saying the same things about your postings on this subject that the issue might just be your words and not everyone else’s.
Can this be done on T Nation?
There are ways. You can simply skip the post. Disable notifications.
Point being I will no longer bother with haters especially after I have tried to extend the old olive branch. I simply can skip posts I don’t care to read and I am good at not being tempted to even look. Even if the site does not allow, I can move on. I don’t have to read clueless bullshit if I don’t want to.
Even if the site does not allow personal disipline is just as good.
I tried reason, disipline, and fellowship. Moving beyond is all I have left. I put very few people on my ‘ignore’ list. But once you have earned it you don’t get off. There is only one person who I ever unblocked. I was eventually moved by their humility and convinced of their good intent.
This isn’t hard. You just don’t read even a word of what they post. Even if you can’t totally block it.
Don’t even look.
Unless the stupidity and personal angst is beyond hope, I do not block or ignore. In this case it warrented. If you where to trouble yourself as to see the rediculous history behind my blocking hfactor, you’d see the truth that I should have done it long ago. He used to literally follow me from thread to thread to hurl insults at me some 3 year ago. I forgot about it to be honest.
I knew somebody did it, but I didn’t remember who. Then reading his garbage, unrelated to the topic of the posts I suddenly remembered it was him who did that. If it behooves you to even scroll up, you see he made no claims to discuss, no counter argument, nothing of substance other than some guy ‘got me’ 3-4 years ago… Not a sound argument about anything in this thread.
Who does that? Seriously, even if you don’t like a person or what they have to say, who chases a poster from thread to thread just to cast insult?
Thinking back through the fog of history I suddenly remembered he was ‘that guy’. No reason, mea culpa, expression of any kind is going to work on a person like that.
If they are chasing you around to make sure you have gotten you due insults from thread to thread, what do you do with a person like that? I am pretty sure I had him blocked in the old format, but I don’t totally remember.
Short answer, yes it can be done. There are lots of good people of differring opinions you can have good and prosperous conversations with, even if they get heated. But trolls are trolls, even if they hide in sheep’s clothing at times. They are a waste of time. Hence, when they hit my ‘ignore list’ it’s permanent as I give every chance. This will be last effort I waste on that guy.
He’s really not worth my time and I have wasted too much on him as is, even now. But I wanted you to understand my reasoning.
These can be good conversations, even amazing, but you need worthy partner(s). One who is able to go into the trenches with you. Not an imbicile who thinks an unrelated conversation from has ended an unrelated topic years ago, from further discussion. That’s the hyperbole of stupidity, IMO.
You want to talk, in a civil way, I am here for you. We may have differences but that’s just an opportunity for learning.
Peace to you my friend.
In the middle of your woe is me wall of tears you put just a little more bullshit. This isn’t true in the least bit. I told you why people post against you and that things weren’t personal. You replied with a hissy fit and threats to ignore. If you think my post about it not being personal is incorrect that’s fine. I’m sure you didn’t read it closely anyways. You want the problem to be with me and not the countless people who have said the same things as me to you many times. Hell I even said it was only your posts about this specific topic. But be honest with yourself and read all the people in this thread and the previous one saying the exact same thing as me.
Man up and do what you say you are going to do. If you’re going to ignore me get to doing it. I’m not going to put you on ignore cause I don’t care enough to do that but if you’re going to do it stop talking about it.
You have tons of posts where I haven’t replied but you do have a lot of hypocritical crap when you post about religion. And I call that out. I’m sorry that hurts your feelings. Post better.
I can fully admit I have a hard time not responding to this type of thing. I wish I was better. But if you say you’re going to do something get to doing it.
In your profile, go to Preferences, then Notifications. You can add members to a “Mute” list so that you don’t get notification when they quote, reply, or tag you.
But their posts will still be visible in threads, so the onus is on you to not engage.
To be honest Hugh, I really don’t even think that’s a question you should even care to ask.
This entire thread, its a physical manifestation of diversity, a human’s gift of logical reasoning to answer a question that resonates uniquely within their own person. A believer’s argument for God, and a non-believers argument for the opposite, can be chalked up to _A Posteriori _ circumstances. Who is right and who is wrong, is like asking a person to look themselves in their own eyes without a mirror. When death walks us all individually to another chapter, that’s when things change, but after that my existence, as well as your existence, and anyone else’s isn’t even up for contemplation or observation anymore, and arguing who is right or who is wrong goes right on out the window with that truth as well. God being there, or not.
From one Believer to another Hugh, and I mean no hostility at all, this is just how I type mainly, In all logical reasoning, it would suit everyone well to set fire to this Christian arrogance that creeps and seeps through the hearts and minds of people who claim they Believe.
I’m going to go out on a branch, and ask you a question, the God we believe in, would it not occur to you that a better question to ask instead of, “Do you hope youre wrong?”, would be, “Could I ask for you to help me understand your beliefs, and your logical conclusions you come to?” That’s were collaboration comes into play, that’s where thoughts and ideas, and facts are shared, that’s where positive persuasion, and research can come into play.
Without understanding, asking questions like that are futile.
I step aside and show the upmost understanding for anything different, or even opposing to what I believe in. I’ve driven myself borderline crazy on the ontological arguments, Zoroastrianism, Infinity Argument, Theology, and philosophy in all its paradoxical, and rational beauty that is itself. I also value science, astrology, and ive been teased, called an idiot, and a bunch of other things because I truly believe, my Belief in God, philosophy, and science all go hand in hand and follow a genuine order from a logical standpoint.
Ive gone off on a slight tangent, but that question, is the base building block for why genuine Believers are looked at the way they are, specifically the ones who believe in Monotheism.
At the end of the day, my job is to love and understand every person who crosses my path, to converse and reason with equal human beings, bring insight, and bring compassion, and comfort to the best of my ability regardless of if people hate my guts, or value me as a friend. And ive got until my last breath to get it down as best as I possibly can.
I mean no harm in what I say though, believe me.
Ill just leave this here. Its borderline scary how simple it is, yet how it speaks an obvious truth.
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As an atheist I appreciate the thought that you put into writing this. If more people would look at the subject this way there would be fewer problems. The bottom line is one side is right and one is wrong and when we get the answer we won’t be able to tell anyone about it.
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Neither side is wrong. If people accepted that there would be fewer problems.
One side has to be wrong. That doesn’t make the other side “bad” but it does make them wrong. A person claiming X and a person claiming Not X both can’t be right.
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