Quite the contrary, deanosumo…
It seems like most recently its ALWAYS the Americans fault…
Mufasa
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Quite the contrary, deanosumo…
It seems like most recently its ALWAYS the Americans fault…
Mufasa[/quote]
When you shoot someone and kill them, it usually is.
[quote]deanosumo wrote:
…
It’s also funny how no American on this forum feels the need to apologise for the dead Italian, either. Instead, you put the blame on her, without knowing all the facts. Maybe her car was speeding. Maybe the scared 19 year old farmboys just opened up. It seems strange that the car would be speeding, after it had already passed through other checkpoints in the correct fashion.
[/quote]
Yes we should apologize, and we have. Yes she has a right to be upset, but the facts are not all in yet, and no investigation has yet finished.
Right now it does look like they were speeding. I can imagine this as they wanted out of there ASAP, and that is understandable. But it is also understandable that if you are in a war zone, where explosive filled cars are repeatedly blowing up in our faces, and you see a car speeding toward you, how would you react? Maybe they didn?t follow protocol, or maybe they did.
Nobody here knows all the facts, and nobody should be placing blame on anyone yet. I think it was more a situation of the wrong place at the wrong time. Unfortunate, but should not become another excuse to bash America.
“…When you shoot someone and kill them, it usually is…”
That was cute and condescending…
The next time you call someone “full of it”…you better check yourself…
Mufasa
The Mage…
Thanks for the voice of reason…
Mufasa
It is amazing the amount of overanalysis in this thread and how the logic is, “since they blame us all of the time, no matter what we do wrong, it is the other person’s fault so that we don’t have to accept responsibility”. If a car passed previous check points, is speeding alone enough to open fire? Why isn’t security tighter on the FIRST checkpoint? These “kids” killed someone who didn’t deserve to die like that. OF COURSE, the world sees us as the bad guy in that situation…we were!
I would love to see some of you act the same if someone in your family needs surgery and the attending physician ACCIDENTALLY does something that causes their death. Maybe the patient decided not to follow pre-op procedures. So it should be the patient’s fault they died on the table, right?
“America” screwed this one up. For anyone to act as if they don’t understand this initial reaction to it is simply retarded.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
deanosumo wrote:
…
It’s also funny how no American on this forum feels the need to apologise for the dead Italian, either. Instead, you put the blame on her, without knowing all the facts. Maybe her car was speeding. Maybe the scared 19 year old farmboys just opened up. It seems strange that the car would be speeding, after it had already passed through other checkpoints in the correct fashion.
Yes we should apologize, and we have. Yes she has a right to be upset, but the facts are not all in yet, and no investigation has yet finished.
Right now it does look like they were speeding. I can imagine this as they wanted out of there ASAP, and that is understandable. But it is also understandable that if you are in a war zone, where explosive filled cars are repeatedly blowing up in our faces, and you see a car speeding toward you, how would you react? Maybe they didn?t follow protocol, or maybe they did.
Nobody here knows all the facts, and nobody should be placing blame on anyone yet. I think it was more a situation of the wrong place at the wrong time. Unfortunate, but should not become another excuse to bash America.[/quote]
Understandable? If I was in Iraq and I flagged down a speeding car and it didn’t slow. I would shoot 100% of them. Why should our soldiers put their lives in danger risking a suicide bomber for the sake of a negligent journalist?
They are in a war zone. You have to be cognizant of the consequences when you enter it and fully expect consequences when you disregard orders by people in the military.
C’mon, Prof…you know I love 'ya…
But you’re comparing an occurance in an OR with being in the middle of a VERY dangerous War Zone…
But for the sake of discussion, let’s say that the emotions elicited by the affected people would/should be the same…
She SHOULD be upset…but tell me this…anybody…please…
What exactly should have been the “proper” response at this checkpoint, manned by young soldiers who in all likelihood have had a fellow soldier(s) killed and/or maimed by either a roadside bomb or a suicide bomber?
Mufasa
[quote]Garrett W. wrote:
Understandable? If I was in Iraq and I flagged down a speeding car and it didn’t slow. I would shoot 100% of them. Why should our soldiers put their lives in danger risking a suicide bomber for the sake of a negligent journalist?
They are in a war zone. You have to be cognizant of the consequences when you enter it and fully expect consequences when you disregard orders by people in the military.[/quote]
You would be completely justified in thinking that way…if everyone involved was also military.
Gents,
here a more official Italian statement:
Italy disputes US hostage account
Silvio Berlusconi
Mr Berlusconi says the US knew of Mr Calipari’s journey to the airport
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has said the car carrying an Italian agent killed by US fire had stopped as soon as it was signalled.
Let’s see how it all develops, giving every side a fair chance.
Makkun
[quote]Professor X wrote:
It is amazing the amount of overanalysis in this thread and how the logic is, “since they blame us all of the time, no matter what we do wrong, it is the other person’s fault so that we don’t have to accept responsibility”. If a car passed previous check points, is speeding alone enough to open fire? Why isn’t security tighter on the FIRST checkpoint? These “kids” killed someone who didn’t deserve to die like that. OF COURSE, the world sees us as the bad guy in that situation…we were!
“America” screwed this one up. For anyone to act as if they don’t understand this initial reaction to it is simply retarded.[/quote]
Hooray. Someone with a grasp of reality.
Some food for thought. This was not a ‘checkpoint.’ At a checkpoint you slow down, stop, show your papers and move on. This was a road block. Meaning you don’t go through this road. There were signs posted that specifically said, turn around, do not pass this point or you will be shot. I do no doubt that Calipari made his presence known and got he required papers to travel through the city at night and I do not doubt that those in charge knew he would be coming to the airport later than night.
The road block was only in place for 90 minutes at the time they were fired on. When Calipari drove down that road earlier in the day the road block wasn’t there, it was placed while he was out and about doing his thing and it suprised him, he was busy chatting with the reporter he’d just ‘rescued.’ She states that the two of them were chatting and were suprised by the gun fire, I don’t doubt that he didn’t notice the road block till it was too late and the soldiers involved followed their standard, and justified proceedures.
The breakdown? Communication, the soldiers should have been warned that he was coming to the airport, he should have been warned about the road block wehn he told us that he was going to be returning the airport later that night.
It was a horrible accident, and the saddest part is, the actual responsible parties, ie. those who did not pass the info on down the line, will walk away from this unscathed and some poor grunt will take all the blame, just like they did with the prison tortures.
[quote]Xvim wrote:
It was a horrible accident, and the saddest part is, the actual responsible parties, ie. those who did not pass the info on down the line, will walk away from this unscathed and some poor grunt will take all the blame, just like they did with the prison tortures.[/quote]
I don’t know about this. If it was a roadblock, and there were signs saying “you will be shot at”, it will not be considered their fault for doing their jobs.
The prison torture thing was something else entirely.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
What exactly should have been the “proper” response at this checkpoint, manned by young soldiers who in all likelihood have had a fellow soldier(s) killed and/or maimed by either a roadside bomb or a suicide bomber?
Mufasa[/quote]
The fact that it seems to be a “roadblock” instead of a checkpoint changes things. If it were another checkpoint in a series of them that the car had already passed through, I would think the first response would be to stop the vehicle, ie. shoot out the tires, not kill whoever is inside.
Since it seems to be a roadblock, if there were signs stating the consequences, other issues are now brought into play. A roadblock only placed for 90min? Was it dark? It brings up even more questions but still makes the situation look shady.
I am so confused. Are we supposed to trust the government or not? If not, why are we supposed to give it more money, and more power over our lives?
This is a completely foolish mindset. If we are not supposed to trust the government, then we should not be giving it more money. And we should not be giving it more control over our lives. But that is what the left wants. How are these two philosophies reconciled?
Back to the subject, we need to realize that there are two perspectives here. Inside the car, and outside. Somewhere there was a breakdown in communication. Either the Italians, or the Americans.
The problem is when there is a mistake in a restaurant, you get fries instead of the baked potato. Not a big deal. When mistakes occur on the field of battle, people die. But how do you keep mistakes from happening? Impossible.
Again let’s not convict anyone here. I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, and have experienced the inverse before.
[quote]The Mage wrote:
This is a completely foolish mindset. If we are not supposed to trust the government, then we should not be giving it more money. And we should not be giving it more control over our lives. But that is what the left wants. How are these two philosophies reconciled? [/quote]
I have always found this opinion funny. The government has gained more control over the general public since a Republican has been in office this term than ever happened previously with a Democratic president. The thought of the power installed due to the Patriot Act alone should keep this statement from making much sense to you. Things are not and never have been that black and white.
As far as this incident, this is not a “battlefield”. This is our military trying to control another country as it spirals out of control in spite of Democratic votes and the rosey sunglasses some people seem to have been prescribed. There are innocents there, not just car bombers and suicide attackers. Because of that, we either need to gain better control over the entire situation or quite literally consider pulling back our troops before more mistakes are made that cast our supposed intent in a worse light than it is already perceived by many.
This incident should never be written off as “oh well, some people die in war”. Besides, weren’t we told that we WON the war over a year ago? I mean, that is what the current administration said, right?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I have always found this opinion funny. The government has gained more control over the general public since a Republican has been in office this term than ever happened previously with a Democratic president. The thought of the power installed due to the Patriot Act alone should keep this statement from making much sense to you. Things are not and never have been that black and white.[/quote]
Name one goddamn freedom you no longer have. Name one incident of you being detained for no reason. I’m so fucking sick of you liberals saying that PA1, or PA2 hasinfringed upon your rights simply because you read that they would at moveon.org.
Is the Patriot Act perferct? nope. But it’s not the resaon for all that is wrong in your life either.
WTF? Iraq is not a battlefield? You might want to post this little gem over on Al Jazerra, because I don’t think the insurgents have gotten ProfX’s memo.
Oh Well, some people get shot and killed at checkpoints because THEY WON’T FUCKING STOP!!! How hard is that for you and your little band of ABBer’s to grasp? She wasn’t shot because Bush/Cheney/Rove needed to send a message to Italy - she was shot because she’s a dumbass that wouldn’t stop at a checkpoint.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
WTF? Iraq is not a battlefield? You might want to post this little gem over on Al Jazerra, because I don’t think the insurgents have gotten ProfX’s memo.[/quote]
Regardless of your specific definition, we are not at war with a country at the moment. That means these are individuals who are attacking us in the midst of civilians. That changes the rules of engagement. You can’t start cappin’ off civilians over there anymore than their military should be able to come over here and do the same. If our men are in that much risk of being rammed into by car bombs that no distinction is made between a stupid driver and a killer, it may be time to consider pulling back. Why is this seen as the wrong alternative? What is your solution? Fuck 'em? You “wholesome conservative”, you. Let’s give them democracy but screw them if they get in our way.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If our men are in that much risk of being rammed into by car bombs that no distinction is made between a stupid driver and a killer, it may be time to consider pulling back. [/quote]
That sounds like liberal solution. Things are really tough right now so maybe we’ll retreat(pullback). Shit, we haven’t even investigated the incident fully. I think that a better solution would be to analyze the situation, come up with an intelligent corrective action, and keep fighting the fight.
Lord knows the “insurgents”(read: terrorists) would like nothing more than for us to throw our hands in the air and retreat.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
That sounds like liberal solution. Things are really tough right now so maybe we’ll retreat(pullback). Shit, we haven’t even investigated the incident fully. I think that a better solution would be to analyze the situation, come up with an intelligent corrective action, and keep fighting the fight.
Lord knows the “insurgents”(read: terrorists) would like nothing more than for us to throw our hands in the air and retreat.[/quote]
Yes, I am sure they would also love nothing more for us to continue to make mistakes like that. Notice, I gave two alternatives and you only focused on one. Your bias is showing. Bigflamer? A little overestimation, huh?