[quote]Jab1 wrote:
BetaBerry wrote:
Awesome, has this become an evolution vs pushharder thread? Every new post makes me cringe a little bit. So far I’ve read more than 3 people asking him for EVIDENCE of his point of view, and what did we get, a bible quote.
Part of me still thinks he’s having me on. I’ve never encountered a real person like this before. Sure, I’ve encounted people my own age, or teenagers, but never a grown man with children my age. Push’s behaviour is quite classic of the standard creationist model that I have seen, and I think an interesting psychological study of this behaviour could be made.
For instance you’ll notice that he imputes faith and mindless passion in to my arguments, which is an interesting projection of his own techniques. Admittedly I have demonstrated passion, but it is a passion for truth, regardless of how I think the world should be. He has repeatedly lied about things I have said, either that or has a reading comprehension level below what I would assume from his standard of writing.
As you mentioned he repeatedly dodges requests for evidence, and instead only supplies easily refutable “proofs that evolution is wrong”. As you also mentioned he has quoted the Bible, which has no place in a scientific discussion of biology. He frequently uses comedy or “cuetsy” style writing to try and diminish what I say in respectability. Any articles he cites come only from creationist sources, and not scientific ones. He has used the appeal to authority (“look how many clever people believe this”). He has created an imaginary distinction between macro and mico-evolution that does not exist in the same way in science.
He has denied scientific and technological advances (for example in medicine, physiotherapy, agriculture) only made possible by our knowledge of evolution without which nothing in biology makes sense.[/quote]
Yea, he accused me of treating science as a religion as well. Which not only is a mistake, but also shows how he things that dogmas are blinding. But not when said dogmas are religious. In that case they’re just fine.
Also, not only said “proofs that evolution is wrong” are flawed, they bring another interesting point. According to creationists, the moment they proove one little aspect of evolution wrong, or simply not yet explained, the whole theory is debunked. But foe some reason, that I cannot understand, the rule doesn’t apply to the bible. You can prove hundreds of things about the bible wrong, it still doesn’t debunk the overall view. A few examples: the earth if flat, 6 thousand years old, and goes around the sun, are mere details, that should not be looked at literally. But all the rest should.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
BetaBerry wrote:
But really, why are we still arguing? I know I said it’s fun, how arguing with someone on their faith is like trying to kill zombies or something. But when it gets this personal, it’s just boring. Obviously he skips facts that are not relevant to his point of view, he tries to change the topic and make it personal, and he manipulates iformation we present. But after all, who cares what one person thinks?
I’m just trying to educate him. I’ve helped some other friends through the maze of creationist lies, and I really enjoy basking in the reflected glow of the profound freedom they feel when they throw off these shackles. Push has captured my attention for this and other reasons.
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I’m not sure it’s worth it. Come to think of it, some people need faith. And some people believe that if they deny a small part of their faith, they’ll be denying everything. Which is funny though, when you consider that 99% of these people (I’m leaving that 1% there, but have never encountered such an individual), actually pick what rules to follow like in a menu. I quote: "Andrew I. Kapust wonders why creationists don’t keep kosher, as he proudly does. I accuse them of picking and choosing among Old Testament laws and pronouncements. Anything they like, like the six days of creation, or “Thou shalt not kill” (mainly as applied to fetuses) is the inerrant word of God. However, most of the other 687 laws (like not wearing cotton-polyester blend fabrics, keeping the SABBATH [Saturday] holy, punishing rapists by forcing them to marry their victims, etc.) they have been excused from observing by Jesus. I can’t seem to find the list in the New Testament, however, that details exactly which laws can safely be ignored by fundamentalists. "
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
BetaBerry wrote:
I’m happy to see that most guys here are not blind by religion. But honestly, you can’t change someone’s opinion when it’s based on nothign but believing. It’s sad, but true. So let’s just make a thread about how cool science is, we can discuss evolution, scientific articles, the sad influence of religion over American culture, or more light hearted themes like the new Star Trek (love it!), and The Big Bang Theory (best sitcom ever). Let people who want to believe in fairy tales lives their lives, not grasping the sarcasm and music references in our posts, and ignoring the facts we present, quoting the bible and their little list of Baptist Scientist (oxymoron!).
Superb idea, lets try it!
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Ok, who will create the thread?
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
BetaBerry wrote:
On the plus side, just remember that this whole discussion is a deeply cultural thing, and if you want a break from it, travel outside of the US. Or talk to people outside of the US. I mean, maybe you’ll have the same issue if you try to discuss the topic with, say, middle-easterns. Oh the IRONY!!
This is part of the reason push amazes me so much, living in the UK I’ve only ever met one creationist.
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I know, it can be quite mind-boggling. I had never heard of such a thing in Brasil either, and went to a catholic school from 7 to 17 years old, where we’d actually have religion classes once a week and the nuns would frown if they caught me kissing my boyfriend during breaks (haha, thankfully it wasn’t a girls only school at least!). Talking to dutch friends, they told me they also had never heard such discussion. And I remember reading a german scientist saying that he doesn’t recall the word “creationist” even existing in german. Also, I’d say 50% of the students in the college I went to were japanese (children or grandchildren of japanese immigrant, dang those kids are nerds!), and I had never heard any of them mentioning this kind of belief. Now moving here to the states, and having a creationist husband, it drives me crazy. It simply amazes me that in the (supposedly) land of freedom and progress, such things are still taboo.