Creationism vs Evolution

It’s not a hypothesis, it’s a theory. Please don’t throw big words around without a good understanding of what they mean. 1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity.

A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth: This idea is only a hypothesis.

What are you referring to as “inorganic” elements? If you’re talking about creating life out of rocks, of course no one did, no one was trying… If you’re talking from a chemistry point of view (organic as in composed of carbon chains as oposed to inorganic), it also hasn’t been tried, because no one is expecting carbon chains to become aminoacids and then life.

Now, if by “inorganic” you mean compunds that weren’t part of a life form, then yes, it has been done. And while I could point out Stanly Miller’s experiment, many would argue that while he did create aminoacids, he never created actual life. Well, scientists have also created a virus out of no form of life. USATODAY.com - Scientists create a virus that reproduces

People tend to get caught up in their own present notions when thinking about evolution. Such as whey they think that the common ancestor between two species should “look” like a cross bred between those species. That’s far from what happens. It pretty much depends on how far back you’re trying to go.

In your badly picked example of fish and reptile, I’d like to point out that after fish came amphibians, and after those the reptile showed up. I’m sure anyone can see how an amphibian is about half way between a fish and a reptile. Yet a fish, a frog, and a snake don’t look much alike. But if you wanna discuss the Lemur-Gorilla-Chimp (and human!) common ancestor, then you can’t think of it as a cross between those animals, because that’s not what it is.

The same way humans didn’t no evolve from apes. Humans evolved from the same ancestor as apes. That’s why we still have some genetic residue from that ancestor, like out tail bones and appendices. It may be hard to think that a dolphin would share a common ancestor with all other mammals, but likewise, dolphins have residual “arms and fingers” in their fins.

Not to mention, if you look at an early stage embryo of ANY mammal, after limbs, head and eyes have started to form, you might have a very hard time figuring out what animal you’re looking at: they all look almost the same.

[quote]BetaBerry wrote:
It’s not a hypothesis, it’s a theory. Please don’t throw big words around without a good understanding of what they mean. 1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity.

A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth: This idea is only a hypothesis.

What are you referring to as “inorganic” elements? If you’re talking about creating life out of rocks, of course no one did, no one was trying… If you’re talking from a chemistry point of view (organic as in composed of carbon chains as oposed to inorganic), it also hasn’t been tried, because no one is expecting carbon chains to become aminoacids and then life.

Now, if by “inorganic” you mean compunds that weren’t part of a life form, then yes, it has been done. And while I could point out Stanly Miller’s experiment, many would argue that while he did create aminoacids, he never created actual life. Well, scientists have also created a virus out of no form of life. USATODAY.com - Scientists create a virus that reproduces

People tend to get caught up in their own present notions when thinking about evolution. Such as whey they think that the common ancestor between two species should “look” like a cross bred between those species. That’s far from what happens. It pretty much depends on how far back you’re trying to go.

In your badly picked example of fish and reptile, I’d like to point out that after fish came amphibians, and after those the reptile showed up. I’m sure anyone can see how an amphibian is about half way between a fish and a reptile. Yet a fish, a frog, and a snake don’t look much alike. But if you wanna discuss the Lemur-Gorilla-Chimp (and human!) common ancestor, then you can’t think of it as a cross between those animals, because that’s not what it is.

The same way humans didn’t no evolve from apes. Humans evolved from the same ancestor as apes. That’s why we still have some genetic residue from that ancestor, like out tail bones and appendices. It may be hard to think that a dolphin would share a common ancestor with all other mammals, but likewise, dolphins have residual “arms and fingers” in their fins.

Not to mention, if you look at an early stage embryo of ANY mammal, after limbs, head and eyes have started to form, you might have a very hard time figuring out what animal you’re looking at: they all look almost the same.[/quote]

way to take exception at my comments and miss the point - you can’t point to your HYPOTHETICAL common ancestors - there aren’t any to be found - you can hypothesis that they should be out there - but there aren’t any in the fossil record. What you do have is species that are readily and ONLY identifiable as a specific species - so what does that missing hypothetical do to your theory? why it makes it merely a hypothesis since the hypothetical can’t be proven . . .

as for your example of creating life - it is just that - the reasoned and intelligently designing of living organism by a injecting a manufactured DNA into a pre-existent living organism (cell) - no one can point to a single natural unaided instance of life being created without the interference of pre-existent life. . .

Really?? There aren’t any in the fossil record? How many “fossil records” did you research to get to such a brilliant conclusion? There are hundreds of fossils that have been found for common ancestors of many different species. Here’s one for you: Fossil From Last Common Ancestor Of Neanderthals And Humans Found In Europe, 1.2 Million Years Old -- ScienceDaily

Viruses don’t exist, or survive (depends on how you look at it) out of cells. The cell is just a host. So are you saying that intestinal worms don’t exist because they can’t exist out of a host?

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:

Like I have now said approximately 347.89 times…you can breed mosquitos forever and ever and ever and ever and…you’ll never end up with a bird. You can try and breed mosquitos with oh, lets say, dragonflies and you can do this forever and ever and ever and ever and you will still never end up with a bird. Or whatever. You’ll just keep ending up with some type of mosquito. Not a beetle. Not a butterfly. Not a tick. Not a lightning bug. Just some form of a mosquito.

The very simplest of one-celled microorganisms have never ever ever been bred in a lab and seen to evolve into complex multi-celled organisms. You can speculate…you can hypothesize…you can assume…all you want…but it has never happened where it can be observed either in the past or the present.

BTW, when you speak of sharing common genetic sequence you speak of sharing common design.

Again, it is patently absurd to waltz into this discussion touting your “knowledge of biology/chemistry/genetics” IF you are attempting to convince our dear readers that macroevolution has been observed in the lab or elsewhere. Don’t do it. I won’t let you get away with it.[/quote]

With no offense intended, the irony of this situation is that many posters supporting creationism have started to act a little too much like the man on trial in the first post (i.e. fearful and angry). As I said after my troll comment, I was merely looking to discuss this topic, not to argue with angry creationists. Honestly, if your opinion on this matter comes down to blind faith then I cannot convince you, only you can see the truth. However, nobody that supports evolution will begin to hypothesize that mosquitos can become birds. That notion is almost as preposterous as the scientific article you posted.

Your right, it is virtually impossible to witness macroevoultion in the human timeline. Your comment about the microorganisms is correct, the precambrian period lasted billions of years and for that amount of time there were only microorganisms.

However, your comment about mosquitos seems very shortsighted. What exactly makes a mosquito a mosquito? In terms of biology a species of organism is one that can exchange genetic material. What happens when a group of compatible genetic material undergoes a continual direction in the microevolutionary process? One could postulate that the mosquitos would be very different granted there was a continual change in the environment. For example, insects during phases of the earth where the atmosphere was very oxogen rich were 10 times bigger than ones today!

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the presence of vestigial structures is also highly important. Vestigial structures, like our tailbone have lost there original purpose. The appendix is also an organ that has no use to the human body, it can be removed. In animals like the blind mole, there is actually a tiny set of eyes that retain zero neurological function that are covered with a thin layer of skin! As thinking human beings it is irrational not to see the truth, all creatures evolve!

I don’t need to argue on this further, i can list all kinds of incredible studies and observations linking genetic traits to evolution. However, I would truly appreciate it if you would tell me why you hold creationism so close to your heart, and why you think it holds all the answers.

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
I love the evolutionary tree . . . . except we have never found on of those “branch point” dual-directional species . . . you know, where one species splits into two different species(that wonderful common ancestor) . . . anywhere along the line . . .

Pick any point on that evolutionary tree and what you get is a lot of species specific branches, but no connecting branch point - no matter how hard they try to graft that tree together . . .

For example . . . where is the fish/reptile splitter species- we’ll call it FiRSS . . . where is the reptile/mammal? better yet - where are some of the species branches themselves? like the Lemur-Gorilla-Chimp species the LeGorCH! Who likes to move it move it with a banana and a diaper?[/quote]

Are you kidding sir? The first study of evolution conducted by Charles Darwin documented many species of finches each with individual genetic traits that suited there highly specific environment. There were dozens of finches all with one common ancestor. WOWeeeWOW.

By the way, LOL. Im assuming you’ve heard of amphibians right? No inter fish/land animal species, HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Everyone arguing against evolution has zero scientific merit, just thought I’d point that one out.

[quote]Schlenkatank wrote:

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the presence of vestigial structures is also highly important. Vestigial structures, like our tailbone have lost there original purpose. The appendix is also an organ that has no use to the human body, it can be removed. In animals like the blind mole, there is actually a tiny set of eyes that retain zero neurological function that are covered with a thin layer of skin! As thinking human beings it is irrational not to see the truth, all creatures evolve!

I don’t need to argue on this further, i can list all kinds of incredible studies and observations linking genetic traits to evolution. However, I would truly appreciate it if you would tell me why you hold creationism so close to your heart, and why you think it holds all the answers. [/quote]

Yea I actually mentioned vestigial structures in my post, but you’ve probably noticed that creationists tend to let those things go right over their heads and just focus on the things that they believe can’t be explained. Like the supposed absence of common ancestors’ fossils.

I though your post was interesting though. I know a certain creationist with whom I have fun discussions about the topic. I like to ask him to explain certain things off of the bible, such as did humans and dinossaurs co-exist? Did Noah fit ALL animals in one ark? If in the Eden everything was peaceful and in perfect harmony, did carnivores already have fangs and claws? Did parasites exist? If so, was God “planning” on things going evil and that’s why He made them equipped for it? Oh so many questions… But the one that got my attention was when I asked him “you know science, you know that much of what you believe doesn’t even make sense. Do you think that if you deny creationism you’ll be denying all of your faith, and therefore you just have to accept it?” He actually said yes. So I think that’s the case for many people here in the US, which is mostly a protestant country. People feel like in order to be a good Christian, they MUST accept everything that is in the bible, exactly how it is, whitout questioning. Funny because in countries that are predominantly catholic, you don’t even see the creationsim vs evolution discussion. Catholics tend to view the bible more figuratively, not literally.

PS: I don’t use a capitol B before bible. Never have, never will. It’s a grammar rule I refuse to comply with.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The answer to all of this is in the Bhagavad-gita. Life must come from life.

“As Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.13), dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara/ tatha dehantara-praptih: “As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death.” And a little later (2.18): antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah sharirinah. This means that only the material body of the indestructible and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. The material body is perishable, but the life within the body is nitya, eternal.”

http://www.hansadutta.com/CHALLENGE/life5.html

Life evolving from non-life is also not possible logically. Nothing can be both living and dead at the same time and in the same respect (esp a cat in a box). :wink:
[/quote]

Careful with that one. Some Hindus believe life is in everything, starting at the sub-atomic level. Their theory is that while the body may cease to function, your soul exists as the energy within the particles forming said body and that energy works its way back into the cycle of rebirth.


I don’t know. But I do know that unless life and non-life are defined as simply different aspects of the same thing, then they can’t occur at the same time…unless you have a cat trapped in a box.

[quote]orion wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The answer to all of this is in the Bhagavad-gita. Life must come from life.

“As Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.13), dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara/ tatha dehantara-praptih: “As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death.” And a little later (2.18): antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah sharirinah. This means that only the material body of the indestructible and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. The material body is perishable, but the life within the body is nitya, eternal.”

http://www.hansadutta.com/CHALLENGE/life5.html

Life evolving from non-life is also not possible logically. Nothing can be both living and dead at the same time and in the same respect (esp a cat in a box). :wink:

Give me a definition of “alive”.

Is a virus alive?

[/quote]

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I don’t know. But I do know that unless life and non-life are defined as simply different aspects of the same thing, then they can’t occur at the same time…unless you have a cat trapped in a box.

orion wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
The answer to all of this is in the Bhagavad-gita. Life must come from life.

“As Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.13), dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara/ tatha dehantara-praptih: “As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death.” And a little later (2.18): antavanta ime deha nityasyoktah sharirinah. This means that only the material body of the indestructible and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. The material body is perishable, but the life within the body is nitya, eternal.”

http://www.hansadutta.com/CHALLENGE/life5.html

Life evolving from non-life is also not possible logically. Nothing can be both living and dead at the same time and in the same respect (esp a cat in a box). :wink:

Give me a definition of “alive”.

Is a virus alive?

[/quote]

But maybe it is not either or.

Just a degree of alive.

[quote]BetaBerry wrote:
Schlenkatank wrote:

I’m not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the presence of vestigial structures is also highly important. Vestigial structures, like our tailbone have lost there original purpose. The appendix is also an organ that has no use to the human body, it can be removed. In animals like the blind mole, there is actually a tiny set of eyes that retain zero neurological function that are covered with a thin layer of skin! As thinking human beings it is irrational not to see the truth, all creatures evolve!

I don’t need to argue on this further, i can list all kinds of incredible studies and observations linking genetic traits to evolution. However, I would truly appreciate it if you would tell me why you hold creationism so close to your heart, and why you think it holds all the answers.

Yea I actually mentioned vestigial structures in my post, but you’ve probably noticed that creationists tend to let those things go right over their heads and just focus on the things that they believe can’t be explained. Like the supposed absence of common ancestors’ fossils.

I though your post was interesting though. I know a certain creationist with whom I have fun discussions about the topic. I like to ask him to explain certain things off of the bible, such as did humans and dinossaurs co-exist? Did Noah fit ALL animals in one ark? If in the Eden everything was peaceful and in perfect harmony, did carnivores already have fangs and claws? Did parasites exist? If so, was God “planning” on things going evil and that’s why He made them equipped for it? Oh so many questions… But the one that got my attention was when I asked him “you know science, you know that much of what you believe doesn’t even make sense. Do you think that if you deny creationism you’ll be denying all of your faith, and therefore you just have to accept it?” He actually said yes. So I think that’s the case for many people here in the US, which is mostly a protestant country. People feel like in order to be a good Christian, they MUST accept everything that is in the bible, exactly how it is, whitout questioning. Funny because in countries that are predominantly catholic, you don’t even see the creationsim vs evolution discussion. Catholics tend to view the bible more figuratively, not literally.

PS: I don’t use a capitol B before bible. Never have, never will. It’s a grammar rule I refuse to comply with.
[/quote]
Thanks for backing me on this one. I really appreciate it.

One of my favorite things to do with my friends is discuss there beliefs too. I’ve got friends who are christian scientists, staunch republicans, and a few people that believe in creationism. It’s actually pretty rare to find someone who’s a true creationist in my neck of the woods so i relish the discussions we have.

Of this i can say on the subject. We can never truly now anything, we are bound by are physical and mental limitations to understand the universe in a very limited way.

That is to say the universe is fucking complex.

However, our emotions hold the key to our greater understanding of the natural order of the world, and creationists are generally ignorant and afraid. Watch the first clip if you don’t believe me, the man being questioned isn’t even bothering to listen. What knowledge will a man like him ever gain? The idea of life spontaneously generating from the earth and evolving into complex forms is so beautiful to me it’s hard to fathom. Creationists don’t see the beauty of evolution because they refuse to look (I site the preposterous article posted earlier, as well as the piss poor scientific evidence used by creationists).

Still waiting on a support of creationism rather than a debunking of evolution.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I don’t know. But I do know that unless life and non-life are defined as simply different aspects of the same thing, then they can’t occur at the same time…unless you have a cat trapped in a box.
[/quote]

<3 Schrödinger.

About the two previous posts: SchrÃ?¶dinger’s cat is a thought about quantum mechanics. It deals with the paradox of two different circumstances, and it has NOTHING to do with death or life.

Techincally viruses are similar to living organisms, in that they repclicate and create progeny. But a virus is only active when withing a host cell. Which shouldn’t be confused with “surviving”, because viruses can exist outside of hosts, they simply don’t replicate.

One thing that I’d like to point out is that any atheist or agnostic person (and probably anyone who doesn’t try to deny evolution), would be more than thrilled to be PROVED wrong. Attention for the word “proved”. If someone came and proved, through scientific observation, using logic and not faith, that I’m wrong, and that things actually happened a different way, I would find that great. And I would accept it without any fear of “going to hell” or “being a bad person” or whatever it is that creationists think would happen if they accept that they’re wrong. You know, when they said that Pluto wasn’t a planet anymore, it made me kinda bummed, but it didn’t quite shatter my world either. If someone finds evidence that dinossaurs and humans have co-existed in Eden, I would find that freaking awesome.

This is the big reason why I enjoy this kind of discussion. I don’t care what people believe. I like seeing how they come up with imaginary flaws in science, and anyone with a minimal understanding on the theory of evolution can just tackle each and every arguement. You know, it’s supposed to be “the harder they come, the harder they fall”, but the fun thing about this discussion is that creationists never fall! On pretty much any other topic, the moment you explain your reasons well enough, the arguement will be over, and then the fun is over! We could make a (geeky) topic about how bumming it is that Pluto isn’t a planet anymore, but it would die so fast. But not with this, no… because faith is just that, nothing else, it doesn’t need a reason or explanation, you don’t need to be right to have your faith. That is, of course, if you’re comfortable living in denial.

Which I totally understand. It must be great to have the feeling that you don’t need to study and research because everything is already in a book. Like it must be great that if you simply accept that one and only book as undeniable truth, no matter how much your life sucks, one day you’ll go to a beautiful place where the grass is green and the girls are pretty and enjoy peaceful boredom for all eternity.

Oh and Schlenkatank, you should read Things that Creationists hate: http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
…Species is a pretty vague, if useful, label at best. We are only able to identify distinct species because of extinctions and time.

We agree here, my satanist friend. That does not negate the “barrier”.

If you go back far enough we all have the same ancestor…

According to the hypothesis, yes.[/quote]

Well then define that “barrier”.

And the concepts used in it, like species.

You are intentionally vague because you know that your claims are unsustainable if you actually express them as clear as possible.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
BetaBerry wrote:
It’s not a hypothesis, it’s a theory. Please don’t throw big words around without a good understanding of what they mean. 1. Theory, hypothesis are used in non-technical contexts to mean an untested idea or opinion. A theory in technical use is a more or less verified or established explanation accounting for known facts or phenomena: the theory of relativity.

A hypothesis is a conjecture put forth as a possible explanation of phenomena or relations, which serves as a basis of argument or experimentation to reach the truth: This idea is only a hypothesis…

This is EXACTLY why macro-evolution is a hypothesis. It is untestable. Unobservable. When you argue with me on this point you are arguing precisely against the very words you just typed.[/quote]

What is “macro evolution”.

I brought you an example of exactly that-

How does it not fit.

For if you claim that a cat cannot become a dog you are attacking a strawman.

Noone claims that.

Edit:

A cat however could, under the right circumstances become a wolf like pack animal that lives in the exact same ecological niche wolves do now.

There are many examples where species that have nothing to do with each other genetically look astoundingly similar because they live off of the same things.

But maybe you would not accept a cat-wolf either because it would probably behave and look very canine and even though we could prove that it was indeed a cat you would ignore its ancestry.

And such examples exist, right here and now.

Dolphins for example.

Look like fish, yet aren´t.

[quote]orion wrote:

A cat however could, under the right circumstances become a wolf like pack animal that lives in the exact same ecological niche wolves do now.

There are many examples where species that have nothing to do with each other genetically look astoundingly similar because they live off of the same things.
[/quote]

It’s called convergent evolution.

We already have these wolf-cats today in the form of Hyenas.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
orion wrote:

A cat however could, under the right circumstances become a wolf like pack animal that lives in the exact same ecological niche wolves do now.

There are many examples where species that have nothing to do with each other genetically look astoundingly similar because they live off of the same things.

It’s called convergent evolution.

We already have these wolf-cats today in the form of Hyenas.

[/quote]

ORLY ?

Hyenas are cats?

Fuck me, they really seem to be.

[quote]BetaBerry wrote:
About the two previous posts: SchrÃ??Ã?¶dinger’s cat is a thought about quantum mechanics. It deals with the paradox of two different circumstances, and it has NOTHING to do with death or life.

Techincally viruses are similar to living organisms, in that they repclicate and create progeny. But a virus is only active when withing a host cell. Which shouldn’t be confused with “surviving”, because viruses can exist outside of hosts, they simply don’t replicate.

One thing that I’d like to point out is that any atheist or agnostic person (and probably anyone who doesn’t try to deny evolution), would be more than thrilled to be PROVED wrong. Attention for the word “proved”. If someone came and proved, through scientific observation, using logic and not faith, that I’m wrong, and that things actually happened a different way, I would find that great. And I would accept it without any fear of “going to hell” or “being a bad person” or whatever it is that creationists think would happen if they accept that they’re wrong. You know, when they said that Pluto wasn’t a planet anymore, it made me kinda bummed, but it didn’t quite shatter my world either. If someone finds evidence that dinossaurs and humans have co-existed in Eden, I would find that freaking awesome.

This is the big reason why I enjoy this kind of discussion. I don’t care what people believe. I like seeing how they come up with imaginary flaws in science, and anyone with a minimal understanding on the theory of evolution can just tackle each and every arguement. You know, it’s supposed to be “the harder they come, the harder they fall”, but the fun thing about this discussion is that creationists never fall! On pretty much any other topic, the moment you explain your reasons well enough, the arguement will be over, and then the fun is over! We could make a (geeky) topic about how bumming it is that Pluto isn’t a planet anymore, but it would die so fast. But not with this, no… because faith is just that, nothing else, it doesn’t need a reason or explanation, you don’t need to be right to have your faith. That is, of course, if you’re comfortable living in denial.

Which I totally understand. It must be great to have the feeling that you don’t need to study and research because everything is already in a book. Like it must be great that if you simply accept that one and only book as undeniable truth, no matter how much your life sucks, one day you’ll go to a beautiful place where the grass is green and the girls are pretty and enjoy peaceful boredom for all eternity.

Oh and Schlenkatank, you should read Things that Creationists hate: http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/thingscreationistshate.htm [/quote]

HAHA, good stuff. It’s funny because its true.