[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And I am pretty sure Kerry would have cut and run by now in both Afghanistan and Iraq as well as dismantled all new the programs we have been using to try to catch the terrorists.
"Would have"s are irrelevant unless you are just stating it as your opinion which further brings nothing of value to the discussion.
I call it irrelevant because you have no way of knowing what would have happened.[/quote]
It is all opinion. Just as the various theories on how terrorists are created.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And I am pretty sure Kerry would have cut and run by now in both Afghanistan and Iraq as well as dismantled all new the programs we have been using to try to catch the terrorists.
"Would have"s are irrelevant unless you are just stating it as your opinion which further brings nothing of value to the discussion.
I call it irrelevant because you have no way of knowing what would have happened.
It is all opinion. Just as the various theories on how terrorists are created.
[/quote]
Yes, but these opinions are based on actual observations not on speculation.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And I am pretty sure Kerry would have cut and run by now in both Afghanistan and Iraq as well as dismantled all new the programs we have been using to try to catch the terrorists.
"Would have"s are irrelevant unless you are just stating it as your opinion which further brings nothing of value to the discussion.
I call it irrelevant because you have no way of knowing what would have happened.
It is all opinion. Just as the various theories on how terrorists are created.
[/quote]
Of course if you subtract the dead terrorists killed by the US then the situation isn’t quite so bleak.
Many foriegn fighters, after having faced US troops in Iraq, also carry back a very negative message to the folks back home, if they make it back home. In other words they chat on the internet about Jihad instead of participating in it.
Sure, but we’d be complete fools to ignore it.[/quote]
You are arguing with yourself. I never suggested completely ignoring it.
Well, first of all, I have said that certain actions, at the margin, can influence.
Second, what you say about Israel demonstrates that you are part of the problem - the US backed Israel because we believed it was the right thing to do. You want to not do the right thing solely out of fear of the perception of it among a class of individuals? I think that is ridiculous. I also would describe that as appeasement plain and simple. Hezbollah terrorists initiated war against Israel - if we thought it it the right thing to do, at some point we must act that way and stop worrying about whether or not it hurts someone’s feelings somewhere.
Your approach is exactly what I am arguing against - at some point we must take a stand, even if that stand doesn’t score well with a poll in the Arab street. That choice can go too far and make things worse - I absolutely agree - but we have played this game entirely too long constrained by silly notions that demand a high standard of pleasing other people for ourselves while not holding Muslims to the same standard.
Why must we always be the one to be worried about offending someone else? Why can’t we be be offended by the actions of them? And why can’t we warn “trust me, you don’t want to piss us off” to the rest of the world? That, strangely, applies to anyone except the US. Odd.
Regardless of how many times I say that the military option is only part of the equation, you keep reminding me. That said, the kind of military war we decide to fight could change that thinking.
The phrase ‘Muslim public opinion’ is meaningless, largely because it suggest that Muslims would just change their minds and become pro-Western lovers of liberalism if only we would present ourselves a certain way. In order to truly change Muslim minds, there will have to be not a big campfire song about tolerance, but a damning, harsh civic audit of what Islam is and what needs to be corrected.
That is the only way to ‘win hearts and minds’ - and how well do you think that will play in the Muslim streets, even if we never drop another bomb?
In order to win this war, Muslims will have to change their minds. The only way for them to change their minds is to confront everything that is wrong about Islamic culture. And it must be discussed bluntly and unapologetically. And it will be ugly.
If by not being ‘culturally obtuse’ you mean ‘indulge in relativism’ - nope. I am all for not being a cultural bully, etc. - but what we are talking about here is a clash of civilizational thinking. The questions at issue are too important to make sure Muslims feel ‘wanted’ and ‘respected’.
The kind of conversation you want to have won’t accomplish anything.
No, I do not consider myself to be a neo-conservative. I do not share neo-conservatives’ Wilsonian approach.
I believe the old rules of war apply, and will always apply. And until Islamists and the complicit Arab/Muslim/whatever street decides to join up with the modernity thing, I want them to quake at the thought of a Western response to their totalitarian mischief.
I don’t envision this silly utopia where we just use a little more tolerance and all this will be gone - Islamic society is nowhere near approaching that rational society we live in. And that is what your approach is built on - an assumption that they think like rational Westerners. They don’t.
Well, I have already covered the Israel question and to reiterate - no thanks, when the right thing needs to be done, we should do it.
And to emphasize this point - why is it always a one way street? Why are we always so worried about how the Arab street will react to us? Why shouldn’t they be worried at our reaction to the stuff they do?
Dunno - can you tell me? Why shouldn’t you castigate Lebanon for instigating such a predictable reaction from Israel?
There are some at the margin, but my contention is that most of it is overblown.
In the situation you’ve just given, absolutely not. But on a broader scale, humiliation - i.e., total and unconditional defeat - is the object of war.
Correct, and at no point have I never suggested otherwise.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And I am pretty sure Kerry would have cut and run by now in both Afghanistan and Iraq as well as dismantled all new the programs we have been using to try to catch the terrorists.
"Would have"s are irrelevant unless you are just stating it as your opinion which further brings nothing of value to the discussion.
I call it irrelevant because you have no way of knowing what would have happened.
It is all opinion. Just as the various theories on how terrorists are created.
Yes, but these opinions are based on actual observations not on speculation.[/quote]
Just as I have observed Kerry’s as well as other Democrats words and actions to form my opinion.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Great post Thunder. It really is that simple isn’t it?
Too many people in this country are playing “blame the victim” for political reasons.
And that is kind of my point. We have reached a point where everything creates terrorists.
I am of a belief that we need to stop the nonsense that everything Islamists do is a reaction to something we did and start getting it into our collective heads that they do things as original evil with an agenda that is largely irrelevant to what we do.
Which fits in with where we are today - if everything creates terrorists, then really, nothing creates terrorists. They create themselves - as original actors - just fine.
That said, that doesn’t mean I endorse a clumsy policy that refuses to take into consideration that actions have consequences and there is a chance of some reactions.
But if what everyone says is true, there is no possible way to deal with the problem of our enemy - punching them in the face will create more of them, and so will trying to shake their hand. And, ignoring them is no choice either.[/quote]
Dead…Fucking…On.
I couldn’t be sicker of hearing about “muslim outrage” over one damn thing after another. I mean every damn day on tv it’s “muslim outcry” over everything from a speech taken out of context to cartoons? WTF???
The islamic haters will continue to do what they do - hate. They will plot and plan against us. Ignoring them is not an option -it will only result in guaranteeing a successful op for them next time around.
No. Better to hit them as hard as possible as often as possible and everywhere possible. They need to start worrying about “Western outrage” and what might happen to their own country if they trigger it. A big fucking mushroom cloud happens thats what - not 1,000 chest beating screaming morons in the street.
If you remove the atmosphere of hatred, the heartfelt belief by most of the populace over there that the western world is the devil, then you will greatly reduce their ability to recruit.
We need to be doing things, other than or as well as, military actions, to change the state of affairs.
[/quote]
Ok I am with you on that but considering how pervasive it is and how deeply rooted AND reinforced…how does that ever get changed?
It seems to me that every single problem in the muslim world is the fault of Israel and the US. Thats the prevailing view the muslim world has.
Everything is our fault or Israel’s fault (and therefor still our fault). So the anger grows and boils and voila - terrorism.
To get to the heart of what creates terrorism would require the muslims to look hard at what is inherently wrong in islamic society - the treatment of women, the fear of the modern world etc etc.
I dont see that happening.
[quote]david dunne wrote:
Ok I am with you on that but considering how pervasive it is and how deeply rooted AND reinforced…how does that ever get changed?
It seems to me that every single problem in the muslim world is the fault of Israel and the US. Thats the prevailing view the muslim world has.
Everything is our fault or Israel’s fault (and therefor still our fault). So the anger grows and boils and voila - terrorism.
To get to the heart of what creates terrorism would require the muslims to look hard at what is inherently wrong in islamic society - the treatment of women, the fear of the modern world etc etc.
I dont see that happening.[/quote]
David, nice to see someone is willing to think outside the box a little bit. It seems rare around these parts.
It gets changed the same way it changed to the current message. A little bit at a time, by replacing whatever they are thinking now. They weren’t always getting the same propaganda they have been lately, although some of it was surely similar.
I don’t think you start with trying to get muslims to see or think about failings in their society, just as you can never get people around here to see any flaws in a sitting administration they voted for.
The pen is mightier than the sword, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that it will solve the problem overnight. It has taken generations for things to get this bad, and if we start now perhaps it would only take a few generations to get to a better place.
To not try is the way to fail, so what is there to lose? Sure, it would take resources to try it, but it doesn’t mean we can’t continue to throw military might all over the place. However, doing so doesn’t seem to be having the desired effect… even if it is necessary at times.
Anyway, again, nice to see the ability to consider something not already being talked about by current political pundits.
[quote]knewsom wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:
knewsom wrote:
Yep - hugs, flowers, food, and asking for forgiveness.
Ta da, and that’s all folks…
I suppose we should add bending over and grabbing your ankles to this list.
Actually, I’ve read that islamo-facists find that particularly insulting. …what ultra-conservative wouldn’t?
In all due seriousness, I think there has been a few successes in the GWOT, as pointed out to my by one of my best friends, a Seargent in the US Marine Corps: The only success he’s witnessed thus far has been his deployment to Djibouti, where he trained CTUs, went on security patrols, built schools and orphanages, and distributed clean fresh water, food, and supplies.
I think we seriously oughta try and finish the fighting we’ve begun, and focus on reconstruction. If we try hard enough, we might just win over their hearts and minds. Granted, we won’t win over all of them, but all we really need to do is make enough friends in this world to enable us to know just who our true enemies are, and WHERE they are.
I’m sure all you conservative right-wing hardcore christians out there will laugh at my silly notions of peace and goodwill, but perhaps you should look to the book you so often thump with such enthusiasm and see what 'ol JC said about how to treat your enemies.[/quote]
This I am not so sure about.
America has certain things that are not compatible at all with the Muslim extremes- namely, capitalism and the (sometimes) seperation between Church and State.
To say that we can win over hearts and minds of people who still stone women for getting pregnant out of wedlock…eh, c’mon, these fucking people live in the dark ages.
Afghanistan was/is the war that needs to be fought. Every member of the Taliban needs to be exterminated, and that country needs to be taken back over. There needs to be a war from the inside on Al-Queda- conventional wars don’t fucking work, and the only thing that can prevent attacks are things like the CIA, the FBI, MI6, etc.
If the FBI can destroy the Mafia like they have, the CIA, which is far more powerful, can infiltrate and destory Al-Queda.
Again, Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time with the wrong people. America has lost so much credibility with the world that I don’t know if we’ll be able to recover from it.
