Dhickey,
Could you elaborate on adrenals? I have reverse circadian adrenals (low morning, high afternoon), and blood adrenaline (catecholamines) seems to come off high several times as I did tests. I cannot calm it no matter what I do.
I can tell you where I was a what I did about it. Worked way too much, hard travel little sleep, tons of stress. Before taking serious steps to get healthy, I felt like I had mono. I was completely destroyed. I could get up to perform for work, but had nothing left for the rest of my life. I was producing very little cortisol and running on adrenaline.
TRT gave me a little breathing room. My overall health improved, I lost weight and my mood improved. I was still walking a tight rope. A little too hard in the gym or at work, and I was crashing again. May have also been on wellbutrin.
http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_nutrition/the_truth_about_adrenal_fatigue. I did astragalus, ashwagandha, licorice root and huperzine A. This made a pretty dramatic improvement in energy at first. I think mostly from the licorice root. I was a little over stimulated at times. Also cut back my caffiene dramatically. Instead of a pot of coffee every day, I have a cup or two a few times a week. When things were bad, I could drink a pot of coffee and still doze off on the couch.
I still wasn’t as solid as I should have been. Energy levels were spotty. Tired during the day, wired at night. Waking up every night between 3:30 and 4:30. Started taking a lot of stuff for sleep. Now settled in on Trazadone and time release Melatonin. Also take DISP and GH peptides for a bit more improvement. Sleep is really solid 5 out of 7 nights a week. I still have not so good nights of sleep.
The final piece for me was modafinil. It’s used for shift work disorder. Half a pill in the morning seems to have corrected my circadian rhythm issues. This was wonderful for awhile. I feel like I’m slipping again. Might need a full pill, some licorice root, an adaptogen or to get back on Wellbutrin. Not wired at night though.
My suggestion for anyone would be to make sure sleep is really solid. If life is a little stressful, add a good adaptogen. There are even complexes with two or three of the good adaptogens. If you you know cortisol is low in the morning, try licorice root. I supposed you could also try thing to lower it at night, but if your rhythm is jacked it’s not going to work in my experience. Modafinil might worth a look as a reset.
Hick,
Thank you for a reply.
I do have a messed up sleep cycle and my inverted cortisol curve was confirmed by saliva tests. I was battling with it for 18 months by now without any success. It feels that once adrenals are out of whack, they get stuck in this vicious state and don’t budge.
Another question: what are physical consequences of elevated afternoon/night cortisol? More specifically, can elevated cortisol downregulate thyroid receptors and cause hypothyroid symptoms even under normal thyroid blood numbers?
Dhickey hit it on the nail with the sleep importance. TRT helped me feel better but once I get 7-8 hours of sleep CONSISTENTLY, (lights out, electronics off at midnight) the true benefits of TRT truly come to light. I feel amazing. As soon as I start slipping on the sleep again, the energy dip is noticeable.
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[quote]Kwn wrote:
Hick,
Thank you for a reply.
I do have a messed up sleep cycle and my inverted cortisol curve was confirmed by saliva tests. I was battling with it for 18 months by now without any success. It feels that once adrenals are out of whack, they get stuck in this vicious state and don’t budge.
Another question: what are physical consequences of elevated afternoon/night cortisol? More specifically, can elevated cortisol downregulate thyroid receptors and cause hypothyroid symptoms even under normal thyroid blood numbers?[/quote]
Don’t know for sure. High cortisol at night can certainly mess with sleep, which has a huge cascade of negative effects. Low cortisol at the wrong times effects energy levels big time, to the point of feeling hypoglycemic for me. I get extremely light headed when standing up and come close to passing out after a workout. I’m in decent shape, but when I’m feeling bad I’ll be breathing heavy going up the stairs.
Cortisol, thyroid and androgens are all tied together. I don’t know specifically how cortisol issues can play into thyroid, but I also have lower thyroid values.
New blood tests are in. As I thought, the E2 has crept higher again since he took me off the AI, so I’ll be adding it back – trying to ease back into the sweet spot. Son of a!!! Since CIALIS is no longer an option for me due to possible hearing loss / blood flow issues to the ears, I’m going to have to nail the sweet spot of TRT in order to not need a PDE5. FML!
Testosterone, Serum 723 ng/dL 348-1197 *1
LH [L] <0.2 mIU/mL 1.7-8.6 *3
Estradiol 42.4 pg/mL 7.6-42.6 *4
Hematocrit 50.5 % 37.5-51.0 *5
Great thread!
Well, it’s been several injections while incorporating good old Anastrazole again, but still not much improvement. Erections still poor quality, libido is only so-so… Wondering if the E2 is taking awhile to come down, or if my body is just taking awhile to recognize the E2 is lower, and needing to sustain that low number for awhile before it kicks in (due to the length of time it remained high). Still not allowed to take a PDE5 to bridge me, per my ear doctor – because I’m still dealing with hearing loss in the right ear, and it was even worse when I went this week. Hoping that stabilizes soon so he’ll allow me to at least return to weekend Cialis…
I’d have a sensitive E2 test done before adding in the AI. I wouldn’t trust that 42.6 at all. The non sensitive test is incredibly unreliable.
It’s been almost a month since adding the AI back into my regimen. So far no big bounce like I’ve gotten in years past. I asked my doc for blood work again to see where I’m at, and he agreed – so I’m going to go give some today. I’ll get a T,E, LH & Hematocrit …
The ear doc has me on a diuretic right now, which I don’t think is helping because it makes you incredibly dehydrated and lowers the volume of blood you have in your veins – which can’t be good for erections. Drinking a lot of water to compensate, but not helping a lot. He said I need to remain off Cialis and other PDE5’s for another MONTH before he will allow me to taper back on, if my hearing issues remain stabilized.
Latest bloodwork is back. My E2 was hovering at 10, which is kind of crazy – because I never felt the sweet spot on the way down like usual around the 22 magic number. I may have made a discovery after talking to a friend with a similar issue though. It seems like taking 1/2 a Adex pill every 5 days with my injection wasn’t working for me, so I upped my dose to 1 full pill every 5 days (before getting blood work back), and got a better bounce.
Morning erections came back (Although my serviceable for sex), and I had A+ sex without ED issues even one Saturday night. Libido still isn’t where I need it to be, but it’s getting there. The moral of story seems to be that the E2 number doesn’t seem to be as important as that there is some noticeable fluctuation in E2 each week. This has caused me to decide to modify my regimen to the following: .35ML T injected every 5 days, and 1 full Adex pill every 10 days. I’m going to test this theory and report back on my results after a month or so. The theory being that you let your E2 float up to around 30, and then knock it back to around 10 every 10 days, and that the fluctuation will trigger some sort of response in the body which helps with erections.
I’ll need to monitor my blood pressure closely, because in the past when my E2 gets above 35, my BP becomes elevated.
Got a great bounce about 8 days out from taking the AI… Sex=10 without any PDE5’s, etc… Felt great until day 10, and taking the AI again – So thinking E2 is getting pushed a little too low, and not bouncing well until the end of the 10 day cycle. Will have to take this into consideration.
Update – It’s been almost 2 months and I feel great. Haven’t really even needed the PDE5’s at all, except for a couple of weekends where I wanted to add a little extra POW.
I think my findings from this experiment are significant. What I’ve basically proven is that (at least with myself), maintaining a steady level of E2 is not what is important for peak sexual performance. For peak sexual performance, you want your E2 to be in a state of constant flux, never getting too high, and never getting too low.
The regimen that I ultimately settled into has been .35ML of T every 5 days + 1/2 of an ADEX pill every 10 days. I started taking more Adex, but lowered the dose to find the perfect rhythm for myself.
For guys who have experienced a great early response to TRT, but later fall off and feel like shit – I’d highly recommend trying my regimen. I’m not using HCG or anything else other than vitamins. I haven’t been that strict with the vitamins, so I don’t think they are playing a huge factor anyway. The only one I notice impacts my sexual performance is the L-Arg, which I usually take a couple grams of on Friday, Saturday, Sunday to boost me through the weekend. Before I have my TRT balanced right, the L-Arg wasn’t working at all though.
I discovered the fluctuating E2 secret because of the same type of problem. 39 years old, TRT for about 3 years now. Me and hakrjak started this TRT journey about the same time. I’m an over responder to AI, so a few drops is all I take every two weeks. I have a good conversion rate of T to E, so my E2 was never high on any E2 test, but without the occasional AI bump, erection quality becomes so-so and MW drifts off after a few weeks. I tried quiting the AI altogether but after a few weeks problems creeped into the bedroom. The trick is to stay between like 30-15 and have it fluctuate. This has been working for me for 6 months now, and I feel better than I have in years. Low E2 definitely makes your tired and low energy, joint pain, poor erections, etc. I struggled for a couple years because I overresponded to AI, but no AI led to problems as well. Turns out just an occasion little AI bump is all I need to stay perfect. I hope this is the silver bullet for you hakrjak!
when You say AI bump what do you mean. You use liquid Arimidex. and how much? What is your exact TRT regiment that works and keeps your libido good and good erections??? Jdeck
It’s been a couple of months, so I thought I’d just post a quick update that things are still pretty good. New regimen is still working pretty well. I may be starting to slow down though - ever so slightly, but only minor impact in the bedroom so far. I’m thinking that the Adex does build up in your system after a while, even when taken in small, spaced out doses –
So I’m thinking a blood test right now might show my E2 being held too low to get good fluctuation. Wondering if I might have to build a 2 week drug holiday into this regimen every few months to keep things running on all cylinders – and keep the body from falling into a groove? I’ll continue to report back for guys monitoring this thread.
UPDATE: Months have gone by, and I’ve continued to show real improvement on the new regimen. I’ve even done things like fall completely off the workout wagon at the gym, not get enough sleep, and let my diet go to shit, drink way too much, etc – but my erections are still awesome, and morning wood is present at least 5 days a week in some way, shape, or form. Sex is no longer an exhausting chore that can only be accomplished every 24 hours after significant recovery time. Now I can have sex 2-3 times a day without issue, and a couple of times in the past few months – I’ve even been able to do that in a short span of time, which I haven’t been able to accomplish since I was 15 years younger. PDE5’s are no longer used or needed at all…
Either something in my body has recovered / healed, etc – or my regimen is causing my systems to come online after an extended period…
I met with my T-doc today, and told him of the discovery I think I found, with the relationship of E2 needing to be in constant flux, and he confirmed that he’s had a similar theory. Perhaps E is a fluctuating hormone, and men need a “cycle” similar to how women have “that time of the month”. He encouraged me to stay on the new regimen, and said he was considering conducting a study / writing a paper on this sometime in the future because he thinks it could help other guys. He did confirm what we all know, which is that every guy’s body is different and this is only going to help guys who respond similar to how I do. <That’s one of the challenges, in that there will never be a one-size-fits-all regimen for all guys, so work hard, research, and figure out what works best for you!>
For those of you who want to try it: .35ML of T every 5 days, and 1/2 of an Arimadex tablet every 10 days. Take baby aspirin daily.
Let me know how you feel…
Best of luck guys!
So you’re not doing anything to keep your testicles in shape - no HCG/chlomid/nolva? Have you noticed any atrophy?
[quote]catfish74 wrote:
So you’re not doing anything to keep your testicles in shape - no HCG/chlomid/nolva? Have you noticed any atrophy?[/quote]
They’re down a little in size, but still look pretty good. My wife “hates balls” anyway (ROFL), so I’m not gong to put my body though an additional medication if neither of us are worried about it. I am a “road warrior” for work also, and so carrying HCG through airport security in a thermos and remembering to keep it refrigerated at all times was going to be a challenge I didn’t want to take on.
Update: Noticeable crash again about 1 month ago, which coincided directly with an IBS flare up. Sexual function diminished to about 50% of where I was prior to. Erections were tougher to achieve and maintain, but did have successful sex. I believe this is the 3rd time I’ve noticed that a crash has come with a bad IBS flare up, so I’m starting to put the dots together that even though my TRT may be dialed in – there is an unknown relationship to absorption in the gut, or whatever is occurring during one of these IBS flares.
When I’m having a flare, I get noticeable cramping in the gut, very loose stools or full on shits, and have difficulty sleeping due to the discomfort. My gallbladder seems to flare up as well (perhaps from my intestines being swollen and pinching off my bile duct), and so I get some sharp pains in the upper right abdominal area. I was able to get on top of it pretty quick thanks to acupuncture, probiotics, and an diet I came up with rich in fermented foods (saerkraut, kombucha, etc) + Kefir, “Good Belly”, etc.-- so now I’m in “wait and see” mode, to find out if 100% sexual function returns now that my gut is healthy again.
Funny thing is – my entire TRT journey began 5+ years ago during my first memorable IBS flareup. My doc said I was suffering from bad malabsorption, etc – and it seemed like a coincidence that my testosterone was so low at the time. I pressed the docs for a link, but none of them wanted to commit to there being a common cause. Sure makes you wonder.