Have you ever seen the actual footage of Kennedy being shot? The zoomed in footage that shows his head being blown to bits by bullets coming from several different angles. The most obvious shot is the one after he gets hit in the neck. He grabs for his neck(this shot came from behind him) and then he gets shot on the right side of his head towards the front of it. Which, naturally, causes his head and chest to fly back into his seat. So how can Oswald, who’s behind Kennedy’s car, also shoot him in the front part of his head. Well, that shoots down(pardon the pun) your theory of Oswald acting alone. What’s odd is watching reporters talk to Oswald after he is taken into custody. They ask him about Kennedy being killed and if he did it. He has the look on his face of little kid who has lost his mom(kind of scared and confused at the same time). Finally, Oswald says no and something to the effect that he doesn’t know what the hell is going on. I’ve seen that footage several times and I honestly believe the poor bastard.
I believe we landed on the moon, but I see the value in scaring the shit out of the U.S.S.R. by pretending we could even if we couldn’t.
I am talking about film I have seen that shows the flag BLOWING in the WIND.
First, the HSCA’s conclusion that there was a conspiracy was highly suspect. They essentially confirmed the WC findings that Oswald fired three shots, two of which struck and killed JFK. Based on a police radio recording, they detected a fourth gunshot in Dealey Plaza and concluded there was another shooter on the GK who fired and missed. The recording was later discredited by a National Academy of Science study. The tape had cross-talk from two channels and the sounds identified as shots were recorded a minute af- ter the assassination. Second, all of you ignore that 88% of the witnesses reported hearing 3 shots coming from the vicinity of the depository. Only 5% heard more than 3, and only 2% heard them come from more than one location. If you want to believe 5% over 88%, be my guest. And yes, I have seen the Zapruder film, and no, it doesn’t support another shooter. Oswald’s third shot hit JFK in the cowlick area of the back of the head. JFK’s head moved forward for a brief fraction of a second and then his body fell back and slumped to the left side. The explanation for the non-intuitive backwards reaction relies on many possible factors which would be almost impossible to duplicate in a single experiment. Some of the factors are: 1) JFK’s nervous system had already been damaged by his first wound, which grazed his spinal cord, 2) the head shot created instant, massive damage to the nervous system, 3) the bullet made a small hole on entry, then created a forward-moving wave of pressure in the soft tissue, causing a large exit wound and the escape of pressure to the front (referred to as the “jet effect”), 4) JFK was wearing a back brace which stiffened his upper body, 5) the vehicle was moving.
Oswald denying his involvement is meaningless. After capture, Oswald claimed to be a “patsy,” though he never explained what he meant. He also lied about a number of easily verifiable details. For instance, he denied living at the rooming house he was known to reside in. Given his general deceptiveness, his claim of being a “patsy” can’t be given much weight. And everyone seems to forget that Oswald also had tried to assassinate General Edwin Walker.
I guess I’ve been watching a different Zapruder film, or something. As that is not what I saw. His head and chest violently goes back as to indicate being shot from the front. There is no quick movement front and then back as your saying. It just didn’t happen that way. Not to mention the peice of his head that goes flying off towards the back of his head. Obviously, indicating a blow to the head from the front. Perhaps you should watch the film again. Way to many loose-ends in the investigation that where never explained, or just flat out ignored. Especially, all of the WC’s reports and findings that were sealed up for 70 years or so. Why did they do that? Why was Kennedy’s body wrongfully moved from Dallas to Maryland for an “autopsy” as the government called it. Oswald’s reaction I spoke of was just an observation I made. If you think its meaningless, cool.
As for JFK the driver took the final shot. I saw a tape a few years back from a friend who is in one of those 3 letter agencies and very involved(I am not going any further than that with my description of him). Notice JFK wife was at first consoling her husband after the first shot. The driver turns around. Now on the footage most of us see it just looks like his head turned but on the footage I saw he turns his head then turns back again and shoots him because he is not dead yet. Now back a just a second here when he turns with the gun that is when Jackie jumps out the back of the vehicle and then of course the agents tackle her back in. The reason she kept quite all those years was simply patriotism(there is alot to why they did it but he wouldn’t go far enough to explain). Now as for whether we made it to the moon well we are still there now and in a big way. My best friends cousin at the NSA was hanging out with a friend at one of the big monster telescopes out in New Mexico and he asks his friend about the moon and points the telescope at it only to see what is obviously some for of structure near a crater and vehicles of some sort moving around. The NSA guy tells him to take the scope off the moon right away or he is going to have problems and right when he said that the guy got a phone call and was told to reposition his telescope right away. So he did then 20minutes later some agents showed up and basically explained to him that to say anything to anyone would violate national security.
Joe’s moon story is one of the most retarded things I have ever read. How many thousands of telescopes are in private hands that could easily see a freaking moon village? Wait, maybe we are all looking at a fake moon used by the NSA to cover up the REAL moon so we don’t see the moon village. Damn the NSA and their trickery.
Actually you are wrong. Most home telescopes can not get anywhere even close to the image that the large deep space telescopes can. I know what you are probably thinking since there are nights where the moon looks really large or whatever but try looking at the moon through a home telescope and trust me you won’t see anywhere near the detail that Joe was referring to. Hell even if you put the empire state building on the moon right now you would not see it with a home telescope.
First, let’s deal with the whole “back and to the left” thing. It’s perfectly possible for a target to move in the direction that a bullet came. Richard Trott demonstrates this, called the “jet effect”, using melons in movie files at McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index and McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index. Physicist Luis Alavarez experimentally demonstrated this effect, and Dr. John Lattimer reproduced this using human skulls and rifle/ammo identical to what Oswald used. You can see a video clip at http://mcadams.posc. mu.edu/skull.rm Forensics and wound experts also don’t think a shot from the GK would have caused JFK’s head to move in such a fashion. You can see interviews and compilation of testimony at http://mcadams.posc. mu.edu/headwnd.htm and http://mcadams.posc. mu.edu/macpher.htm. Cyril Wecht, a forensic pathologist, believes there was a shooter on the GK based on the “back and to the left” motion, yet in the Menendez retrial, he claims that simple Newtonian physics can’t determine how a person will react at http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ wecht2.htm Also, the backward motion can be caused by neuromuscular spasm, and you can see a goat experiment where this happened at http://mcadams.posc.mu. edu/goat.rm Finally, watch the video in slow motion frame by frame, around frame 313. The president’s head bursts open to the front and right, and what is also clear is that a large flap hangs down from the exit wound. When the video is watched in slow motion, it is clear that JFK’s head goes forward for an instant when the shot hits him, and then whips violently back and to the left. Second, the fact that the WC records were held for so long is not evidence of a conspiracy. It is not unusual for historical materials to be classified until such time as most of the principals will be presumed dead. Even then, the government may dawdle in releasing documents since the process tends to be labor-intensive and of low priority. For instance, many papers pertaining to WWI have still not been made available to historians. Despite the policy, now all but a very few WC records have been released. Third, it’s flat out false that JFK was shot by the limousine driver. In an exhibition frequently given at New Age fairs and other events, a black and white version of the Z-film is shown which appears to show the limousine driver pointing a gun at JFK. This effect is a figment of the poor black and white reproduction. What appears to be a handgun is actually sunlight reflected off the hair of the front seat passenger. The effect is easily seen to be false in the color original. Fourth, it’s true that JFK’s body was illegally moved from Texas. In 1963, killing the President was not a Federal offense. Thus the proper jurisdiction for the autopsy, crime investigation and prosecution was the State of Texas. Though there’s no real precedent for the crisis, JFK’s representatives violated the law by taking the body back to Washington. However, this particular legality would have been an insignificant consideration to people perhaps in fear that some cataclysmic political event was underway. Additionally, a sinister interpretation of the act would implicate many of JFK’s key aides in the alleged conspiracy. David Lifton, a conspiracy theorist, is one who claims that Kennedy’s body was stolen and surgically altered between Dallas and Bethesda. However, such a claim strains the limits of credulity. The body was never left alone long enough for “body snatchers” to take it, let alone make alterations to the body, even if such alterations were possible. Finally, for mathematical analysis of how improbable a successful conspiracy would be regarding the assassination, go to http://mcadams.posc.mu. edu/logic4.htm A lot of you guys need to apply some common sense to this case.
The ones that I believe in are the Fed, conspiracy theory. See the Federal Reserve is set up kinda like a bank that loans us money…the only problem is that the Fed is made up of a group of banks …many in European countries…and think about this…if I give you $500 and thats all the money you have in the world ( and since im a bank i charge interest) how do you pay back the loan plus the interest? GOD BLESS YOU ALL
HIV doesn’t cause AIDS! It only makes big $$$$ for pharmaceutical companies. Landing on the moon is a bit hard to fake if the USSR weren’t in on it too. I think they would have taken the chance to humiliate their former western enemies if they could shown there were no moonlandings.
We are not alive. It is just a vast government conspiracy to convince us that we are still alive. That way, the pharmaceutical companies, the CIA, and the Disney Company, can pick and choose who is really alive. They leave the smart people dead. Then they reincarnate the idiots. I won’t be surprised if you two stop posting, you are next in line to return to the world of the living.
WOW symphony x you talk as if you were there. Well common sense would be nice but if its a cover up or a conspiracy to confuse the general public then COMMON SENSE does not apply. As for the driver shooting that reflection you are talking about has nothing at all to do with it. What was removed from the film that the general public sees is the entire turning of the limo driver with his arm out pointing the gun directly at JFK’s head. Well its pointless to go on here because most of you will never see the real footage. Remember people the best way to keep a secret is disinformation. Trust me alot of movie plots are sent out to writers as a form of disinformation. Once a movie is made the gov. can say that someone got the idea from a movie.
Symphony although you present a good argument and I have no strong feelings either way. I would like to point out that a majority of people believing in something does not dicredit the minority or make something a fact. It was not that long ago that most believed the earth was flat. Did that mean Gallileo was wrong? A recent poll indicated that a majority of Americans believe in angels. So what? A lot breakthroughs in science, medicine and other areas in society came from individuals going against accepted rules and thought, not from the majority. Oswald may have been approached after he got the job at the TSBD. The conspirators, if any may have been looking for someone and Oswald presented himself. Maybe he took the job without any thought of this and realized the opportunity when he found out JFK was coming. Although I have no clue about guns I watched one of the many shows on JFK and in the reenactment of the shooting the shooter (FBI?) could not repeat the feat. Demo seems to think it can be done, and maybe technically it can, but if Oswald was under that kind pressure (shooting a president) he would have to have some nerves of steel. 2 of 3 shots hitting a small moving target from that distance. Pretty impressive or maybe just lucky.
First, it’s the majority of people that believe there was a conspiracy. Public opinion polls have shown that up to 85% of the public believes there was a conspiracy. Thus, I am in the minority. Second, FBI weapons expert Robert Frazier got off three accurate shots with Oswald’s Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in 4.5 seconds – recycling the mechanism and reaiming the rifle twice. Oswald had about 8 seconds to get off the shots. Third, you guys need to apply simply probability and logic to this case. If there was a conspiracy, A LOT of people would need to be involved. There is a huge amount of evidence against Oswald. Of course, conspiracy theorists say it’s all a set-up. So all the witnesses that heard only 3 shots…they must all have been lying or forced to say these things. All the witnesses that heard the shots come from only one direction…they must have been lying too, or they were all forced to lie by conspirators. All the people on the WC…they had to be a part of the conspiracy. The doctors…well, they had to be a part of it as well. It gets ridiculous. Let’s say that there’s a 95% chance a conspirator won’t “blow the whistle” on a conspiracy. If we had only 3 conspirators, the probability of the conspiracy being successful is 0.95 ^ 3 = 0.86. Those are good odds. Now let’s say there were 30 people. Well, the probability of a successful conspiracy reduces to 0.21. And with the JFK case, there would have to be hundreds of people involved…and that’s just to cover-up the conspiracy…not even bothering with the conspiracy to shoot JFK himself. Of course, I must also be a part of the conspiracy because I’m sitting here trying to show that there was no conspiracy. So, it strains the limits of COMMON SENSE. I suggest you guys read Michael Beck’s odyssey where he went away from being a diehard conspiracy buff, and his reasons why at McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index I wouldn’t believe everything you see on TV, either. The media is not always straightforward and honest about this case…it plays up to the desires of the general public to want to believe in a conspiracy. The media thrives on controversy. An episode of the Today show once showed the Zapruder film with sounds from the Dictabelt recording overlayed over it. You can clearly hear shots. Well, there are NO shots in the original Dictabelt recording. The producers of the Today show dubbed the shots in, and DID NOT tell the audience that the shots were produced in the studio. Finally, the limo driver shooting JFK is one of the most ridiculous of conspiracy theories. If this had happened, then everyone in the car would have seen it, such as Jacqueline, and witnesses in the crowd would have seen it as well. Oh, wait. I guess they’re all a part of the conspiracy too, or maybe government agents are threatening them to keep quiet about it. To quote one serious conspiracy researcher: My research has shown over 75% of all alleged facts in this case are false. Just take any book and compare the author’s conclusions to another author’s conclusions. Check each alleged fact in each book and see how many cancel or contradict each other. If all the alleged facts in all the conspiracy books were true, we could expect to have the following conclusions:
- The Grassy Knoll was a very busy place with many gunmen who never saw each other.
- There were at least 10 individuals depicted in the photos of the three tramps.
- There were at least 30 gunmen firing from 4 different buildings, the overpass, the Grassy Knoll, the South Knoll, the Presidential limo, the Secret Service follow-up car, the curb on Elm Street and the sewer.
- There were at least 100 conspirators in Dealey Plaza. These “facts” seem absurd and ridiculous but this is exactly what we end up with if we believe all of the conspiracy books which have been published. Finally, those of you who think Posner’s book is biased and full of errors and the like, I suggest you read http://www.geocities.com/ m_j_russ/defend.htm
If the natives in King Kong were so worried about the 10 story tall ape entering their village, then why did they have 10 story tall doors to the gate used to “protect” their city instead of a nice 7 ft threshold decorated with plants?
In the real world, IMO the president is a talkinghead-and when he starts using his own words…the head is removed.
BAMBAM, you make no sense. In the real world, a dog barks, and he waggles his tail. So when the President barks, he waggles his tail.
That’s the thing Symphony, I do use reason and logic when weighing the facts in the JFK shooting. I truly believed there was a conspiracy to kill JFK. There were plenty of people who could’ve benefited from his death. I also think Oswald didn’t act alone. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he was sitting on the pot reading Mad magazine at the time of the shooting. He was, as the story goes, a patsy. It’s hilarious to me that you can’t fathom the government/military assassinating a president and covering it up. These people who would have to have been “hushed” by the government, as you say, were indeed kept quiet. Look how many of the eye-witnesses died mysteriously. Many were threatend with their lives if they talked. You present your argument well, I just don’t see it that way.
Dustin, you claim to use reason and logic but I’m not seeing it. I think you’ve been reading too much Jim Marrs. The idea of a “clean-up” squad that’s going around killing witnesses has no basis in evidence. First, most of the “mysterious” deaths are not mysterious at all, and most of the individuals that have died were not key witnesses…many of them only have tangential connections to the entire case. If you were to examine the deaths themselves, you would find that they are not suspicious. Many of the most well-known pro-conspiracy authors and witnesses are still alive today. You also ignore the logical problems with the idea of a “clean-up” squad in the first place. Each individual that is recruited in the squad simply increases the probabilility that the conspiracy’s cover will be blown. Also, if there was a clean-up squad going around killing key witnesses, then it would only make sense if these witnesses were killed quickly. But if one looks at Jim Marrs’s list of supposed mysterious deaths, many of them happened as late as 1984. Also, people who supported the WC are well-supported on this list. So why would a clean-up squad want to kill witnesses who support the cover-up? To quote John Kaplan: “[Regarding the “mysterious” deaths of “witnesses” to the assassination], even the most cursory examination of the stories shows how essentially foolish they are. A good many of the deaths hardly seem mysterious in that they were caused by auto accidents, heart attacks, and other phenomena that afflict our entire population. Moreover, before we could tell whether the number of these deaths is in any way unusual, we would have to know the number of equally “mysterious” deaths that occurred to people completely unconnected with the WR. But even apart from any statistical refutation, the theory that a set of conspirators is now devoted to wiping out a host of unimportant witnesses is almost too silly to be put forth. There is not the slightest indication that any of the “victims” have had anything to tell that they had not already told, and indeed the deaths seem concentrated among those who bore only the most peripheral relation to the assassination. When one stops to consider that almost each one of the “mysterious” deaths requires the recruitment of at least one and often several new conspirators, it would seem that, like the pyramid club, the conspiracy would be getting bigger and bigger rather than smaller. One would think that in light of what had happened to those who knew too much it would get very difficult to recruit new members into the conspiracy. Most important, however, it is hard to say why the supposed killers are taking whatever chances these murders entail when it is so obvious that, whoever the conspirators are, they have already gotten off scot-free.” Also, there is no evidence that the government would have had good reason to eliminate JFK. JFK’s political ideals were actually different from what conspiracy authors try to make them out to be. For a thorough historical analysis of JFK, go to McAdams's Kennedy Assassination Home Page Index Finally, Dustin, you failed to address the statistical improbability of such a vast government cover-up. For a government cover-up to be successful, the number of people involved must be kept small. There are a few instances of successful government cover-ups in the past, as well as failures: the 1953 CIA planned overthrow of the Iranian government, the Roswell UFO coverup, the Watergate breakin coverup, the Bay of Pigs invasion, and the Iran-Contra scandal.