[quote]Vegita wrote:
Nothing? Well maybe someone will feel more up to it tomorrow?
V[/quote]
Well funny enough, living in a different timezone has it’s disadvantages with internet arguments. I go to sleep, go to work, work out and come home to two pages of text. Let me breathe at least.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Nothing? Well maybe someone will feel more up to it tomorrow?
V
Well funny enough, living in a different timezone has it’s disadvantages with internet arguments. I go to sleep, go to work, work out and come home to two pages of text. Let me breathe at least.[/quote]
Pikachus need their beauty sleep ya’ know!
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Are these guys demolition experts? Meaning, have they ever brought down a structure this size? In a controlled demolition? Or done some testing in a similar situation as the Towers?
Now again explain to me how an inside job could be accomplished when it takes a long time, over a week for a crew of guys to place charges in a buidling for a demolition. explain how no one will say a thing, or leak anything to the press.
Explain how the tallest building ever dropped was only 1/3 the height of the towers.
And you won’t have any answers. Stop looking for camels in the forests of Pa. when you here hoof beats. But you guys love Alex Jones and eat his stuff up. And for every expert you have cut and pasted from some whacko sight, there are legitimate scientists who think it is. But some of us think it’s a waste of time to get to involved in such a ridiculous argument to great of a degree.
So let’s just say you won. You get a cookie, send me your address and I’ll drop one in the mail. A good one too. And the rest of the world will still think you’re nuts and nothing changes.[/quote]
Here is a problem I have with your response. #1 I was posting these guys and thier credentials and statements because Mak said they are “failbot” which I assume means they are bullshit. he said “most” of them are frauds, fakes or don’t have an active license, i’m paraphrasing mak so don’t hold me word for word. But Tom, one of the major arguments I hear when discussing that the buidlings look like they were brought down with controlled demolitions, is this. “what do you know, you don’t know anything about buildings or demolitions” Then someone will usually say they know a guy, or know a guy who kows a guy who is a metalugist, an engineer, an architect or a demolitions expert, and thier guy said it’s not demolitions.
Well all I am doing is showing that there are people who know buildings. Who know construction methods, who went to school and studied load bearing principles. You can say they are on a whako site but it doesn’t change the fact that there are a LOT of people with far greater knowledge of how buildings should behave in that scenario and they think it was brought down by controlled demolitions. So in order for me to counter someones argument that in thier mind shuts the door that thier guy said it’s not, is to show them people with similar credentials who say the opposite. To someone who is skeptical and open minded, this would usually compel them to think further on the subject, look for more answers and dig deeper. Why would people of equal credentials disagree on something like this. I would also just like to point out, there is probably a lot more to lose than gain by supporting such an idea openly.
On to another one of your remarks, the very first guy I posted owns a demolitions company. I do not know if he personally is a demolitions expert, but being the owner of a demolitions company, one would have to assume he has a pretty good knowledge base when it comes to things of that nature. If you would like I will look for other demolitions experts who don’t believe the official story.
One more point I would like to bring up for discussion, I know there is a lot going on right now but it’s on my mind and I need to get it out. If an earthquake hit NY city would you expect highrises to collapse in a similar manner or in any manner? Do skyscrapers collapse in any of the cities in Japan or California, areas where earthquakes happen? In an earthquake, waves move through the earths crust, very very powerful waves. Some very strong earthquakes can cause buildings to rise and fall inches several times. I am not a math major, but this whole dynamic load argument about why the building columns didn’t provide much resistance seems fishy to me. If a skyscraper in japan or los angeles can handle the dynamic load of an earthquake raising it several inches and then dropping it several inches, why would the steel in the world trade center not at least provide substantial resistance to that load. If you think about say a 50 story skyscraper in LA. How much foce do you think would be applied to the bottom few floors of the support structures, you have 40+ floors of concrete and steel dropping on them, yet they don’t fail. They handle the load, don’t buckle, don’t collapse etc… This is a questions which I think should at least raise some questions about the lack of resistance to the falling structure and the dynamic load reason given.
V
The problem is we would need to seriously study buildings, metal work, engineering etc. All you are doing is quoting an expert. there are other experts who disagree. Neither side of this argument has any technical knowledge, or working knowledge on this.
So I err on the side of the non loons. Alex Jones has a few points and then goes way off kilter. Government is out of control, but worry about the health care plan and not a silly pipe dream in conspiracy land. there are plenty of credible i have asked questions that explained to me why it was the jet.
the are firefighters, scientists, and met workers. guys who have put up steel buildings. and they think Jones and his ilk are bat shit crazy. Makavali explained about setting up a demolition and you fellows don’t want to explain how they could have pulled it off.
You don’t want to listen, you want to preach your agenda. And the longer you do it, the sillier you look. Your picky apart knowledge that you don’t know. It’s like me listening to a bunch of heavy girls talking baout diets. They never did it and don’t have the knowledge,but boy they have opinions.
Cuttign and pasting stuff from some conspiracy website will not convince anyone.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Nothing? Well maybe someone will feel more up to it tomorrow?
V[/quote]
I’ll try this once
about halfway down is a discussion of WTC 7. Remember, this is a level-headed extremely reasonable explanation of how it happened. If you claim that it was different you must substantiate your claim (and your cites are, well, creative). Exceptional claims require exceptional proof. Worthy of a quote from Popular Mechanics is
“On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom â?? approximately 10 stories â?? about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.
– jj
[quote]jj-dude wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Nothing? Well maybe someone will feel more up to it tomorrow?
V
I’ll try this once
about halfway down is a discussion of WTC 7. Remember, this is a level-headed extremely reasonable explanation of how it happened. If you claim that it was different you must substantiate your claim (and your cites are, well, creative). Exceptional claims require exceptional proof. Worthy of a quote from Popular Mechanics is
“On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom â?? approximately 10 stories â?? about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.
– jj[/quote]
Well here is a picture of a building with far more damage, I think you will recognise it. Yet, it appears to me the rest of the building is still standing? So here we have real world evidence that goes against thier claims, and thats all they are is claims, No one has data from inside the building before it went down, so thier estimates are just that estimates. Thier figures could be wildly off, even if they are a little off, the building would stand. Many think it would stand even using thier figures.
The popular mechanics “debunking” has itself been debunked, I’ll find the link and post it. Though I’m sure you will dismiss my debunking and yet you expect me to believe the one you posted.
The greatest thing about all this is that most people who question the official story want a new, beter investigation. Tom talks about more important issues at hand, and I agree there are many important issues to be dealt with. However, raising questions about the largest terrorist attack on this nations soil and trying to get answers in case mistakes were made (which there seems to be) in the origional investigation. Just above this Tom has dismissed the experts I listed as loonies, and again stated he has talked to his own experts who believe the official story. His type of argument is useless because it is hearsay, he hasn’t provided one specific fact, or even linked to a person who supports his ideas. Name calling? Check! No evidence to back his side up? Check! Dismissing my evidence without seriously considering it’s validity? Check! Trying to shift the focus of the debate? Check!
V
Here is a small debunking by Prison Planet, yes an alex jones link!!!
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/100806popularmechanics.htm
Here is a non alex jones debunking. It is quite a bit more complete, it addresses each PM point, one at a time.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm
I’m sure you will now tell me to give you a debunking of the PM article by anyone other than a 9-11 truth source. Well unfortunately, who else would spend thier time and effort other than someone who thinks the official story is bunk?
V
[quote]tom63 wrote:
The problem is we would need to seriously study buildings, metal work, engineering etc. All you are doing is quoting an expert. there are other experts who disagree. Neither side of this argument has any technical knowledge, or working knowledge on this.
So I err on the side of the non loons. Alex Jones has a few points and then goes way off kilter. Government is out of control, but worry about the health care plan and not a silly pipe dream in conspiracy land. there are plenty of credible i have asked questions that explained to me why it was the jet.
the are firefighters, scientists, and met workers. guys who have put up steel buildings. and they think Jones and his ilk are bat shit crazy. Makavali explained about setting up a demolition and you fellows don’t want to explain how they could have pulled it off.
You don’t want to listen, you want to preach your agenda. And the longer you do it, the sillier you look. Your picky apart knowledge that you don’t know. It’s like me listening to a bunch of heavy girls talking baout diets. They never did it and don’t have the knowledge,but boy they have opinions.
Cuttign and pasting stuff from some conspiracy website will not convince anyone.[/quote]
I’ll assume you were in a hurry when you wrote this as it is a little hard to follow what you are saying. One thing is clear, even though I have given you statements by Arcitechts, Egineers and the owner of a demolitions company, you just simply ignore anything they have to say because you have already made your mind up that any person who questions the official story is a loon. If George Bush came out and said, Hey everyone, Yea we did it, 9-11 was planned and orchestrated by us. You would dismiss his statement and say, Obviously he has lost his mind and is now a raving lunatic. So no matter what I put in front of you, you will NEVER believe that it could be anything other than the official story. I commend you on your resolve, but please leave this debate to people who actually wish to debate.
V
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Then someone will usually say they know a guy, or know a guy who kows a guy who is a metalugist, an engineer, an architect or a demolitions expert[/quote]
I will claim to know myself with utmost impunity, good sir.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
If George Bush came out and said, Hey everyone, Yea we did it, 9-11 was planned and orchestrated by us. You would dismiss his statement and say, Obviously he has lost his mind and is now a raving lunatic.[/quote]
Of course, the evidence doesn’t add up. That doesn’t mean we would dismiss him straight off the bat, obviously something needs looking into.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
tom63 wrote:
The problem is we would need to seriously study buildings, metal work, engineering etc. All you are doing is quoting an expert. there are other experts who disagree. Neither side of this argument has any technical knowledge, or working knowledge on this.
So I err on the side of the non loons. Alex Jones has a few points and then goes way off kilter. Government is out of control, but worry about the health care plan and not a silly pipe dream in conspiracy land. there are plenty of credible i have asked questions that explained to me why it was the jet.
the are firefighters, scientists, and met workers. guys who have put up steel buildings. and they think Jones and his ilk are bat shit crazy. Makavali explained about setting up a demolition and you fellows don’t want to explain how they could have pulled it off.
You don’t want to listen, you want to preach your agenda. And the longer you do it, the sillier you look. Your picky apart knowledge that you don’t know. It’s like me listening to a bunch of heavy girls talking baout diets. They never did it and don’t have the knowledge,but boy they have opinions.
Cuttign and pasting stuff from some conspiracy website will not convince anyone.
I’ll assume you were in a hurry when you wrote this as it is a little hard to follow what you are saying. One thing is clear, even though I have given you statements by Arcitechts, Egineers and the owner of a demolitions company, you just simply ignore anything they have to say because you have already made your mind up that any person who questions the official story is a loon. If George Bush came out and said, Hey everyone, Yea we did it, 9-11 was planned and orchestrated by us. You would dismiss his statement and say, Obviously he has lost his mind and is now a raving lunatic. So no matter what I put in front of you, you will NEVER believe that it could be anything other than the official story. I commend you on your resolve, but please leave this debate to people who actually wish to debate.
V[/quote]
There is no debating with weirdos. you fellows will cherry pick, cut and paste any little tidbit, but do not have any technical knowledge.
I’ve talked to guys with technical knowledge. they have no problem with the official story. these guys, work with metal and erect buildings. It’s not some cut and paste article from 1971.
Just give up already. People that are strange believe you, people who are not don’t and won’t. There is no debate buddy. This is the internet. Not Oxford’s debate team. There are no rules.
You’re blinded by the big bad gubmint boogieman wants to get me. he does, but he’s doing it straight to your face, not in some sneaky way.
Now explain to me how they wired the building. In step by step detail. And how no one saw what was going on. Contrast it with other major demolitions. Tell me man power, hours, involved, materials needed.
If you can’t do that, you don’t know crap, any more than me on all the nitty gritty details. Difference is, mine is grounded in common sense. Yours is some weirdo fantasy.
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Vegita wrote:
tom63 wrote:
The problem is we would need to seriously study buildings, metal work, engineering etc. All you are doing is quoting an expert. there are other experts who disagree. Neither side of this argument has any technical knowledge, or working knowledge on this.
So I err on the side of the non loons. Alex Jones has a few points and then goes way off kilter. Government is out of control, but worry about the health care plan and not a silly pipe dream in conspiracy land. there are plenty of credible i have asked questions that explained to me why it was the jet.
the are firefighters, scientists, and met workers. guys who have put up steel buildings. and they think Jones and his ilk are bat shit crazy. Makavali explained about setting up a demolition and you fellows don’t want to explain how they could have pulled it off.
You don’t want to listen, you want to preach your agenda. And the longer you do it, the sillier you look. Your picky apart knowledge that you don’t know. It’s like me listening to a bunch of heavy girls talking baout diets. They never did it and don’t have the knowledge,but boy they have opinions.
Cuttign and pasting stuff from some conspiracy website will not convince anyone.
I’ll assume you were in a hurry when you wrote this as it is a little hard to follow what you are saying. One thing is clear, even though I have given you statements by Arcitechts, Egineers and the owner of a demolitions company, you just simply ignore anything they have to say because you have already made your mind up that any person who questions the official story is a loon. If George Bush came out and said, Hey everyone, Yea we did it, 9-11 was planned and orchestrated by us. You would dismiss his statement and say, Obviously he has lost his mind and is now a raving lunatic. So no matter what I put in front of you, you will NEVER believe that it could be anything other than the official story. I commend you on your resolve, but please leave this debate to people who actually wish to debate.
V
There is no debating with weirdos. you fellows will cherry pick, cut and paste any little tidbit, but do not have any technical knowledge.
I’ve talked to guys with technical knowledge. they have no problem with the official story. these guys, work with metal and erect buildings. It’s not some cut and paste article from 1971.
Just give up already. People that are strange believe you, people who are not don’t and won’t. There is no debate buddy. This is the internet. Not Oxford’s debate team. There are no rules.
You’re blinded by the big bad gubmint boogieman wants to get me. he does, but he’s doing it straight to your face, not in some sneaky way.
Now explain to me how they wired the building. In step by step detail. And how no one saw what was going on. Contrast it with other major demolitions. Tell me man power, hours, involved, materials needed.
If you can’t do that, you don’t know crap, any more than me on all the nitty gritty details. Difference is, mine is grounded in common sense. Yours is some weirdo fantasy.
[/quote]
Sorry tom, but on this one you are simply delusional. Saying my experts who work with metal and buildings and demolitions are weirdos, or they are from 1971? I don’t even follow that but whatever. I already know you will never give up the point that your experts are right and mine are wrong or need mental help.
I will explain to you how they “could have” wired the buildings. You will say impossible, but i’ll say not impossible, maybe not probable, but when conducting the largest criminal investigation the world has seen, or at least what should have been, you check into the improbable stuff too. And with the other “coincidences” of the day, it seems very reasonable, at least it fits. It’s definately not reasonable, but nothing from that day was reasonable.
I have a meeting, I’ll be gone for a couple hours, don’t get impatient now.
V
Okay, you see what happens when you really don’t understand or know stuff, but you want to debate. Cut and paste is not research. Makavali has laid out how much is involved in bringing down a building in a controlled manner. A building which is 1/3 the height of the towers.
This would take weeks upon weeks of work with multiple people, all who need to do it under the cover of darkness with no one ever spilling the beans or no one finding any thing out. It’s easy to find " inconsistencies " when you don’t know what you’re talking about. it’s easy to find these illogical happenings when you don’t know the logic.
You’ve been debunked by experts and told stuff by firefighters and architects, and still persist in your delusions. You are not going to convince anyone with this silliness. And I’m a big one of the government is often up to no good.
Waco, credible experts weighing in that the Gubmint screwed up. read the warnings on tear gas. Understand that the BDs had less guns per adult that the average Texas house. How’d the press know about a secret raid?
Ruby Ridge. Hell, the Gubmint paid out a few million to Weaver and admitted mistakes. OKC, no ATF agents were in that date. Could make sense the government tried to stop it in progress and screwed up, which of course will not be admitted. Especially when it gives them ammo against pro gun and anti govt types.
But this is like War and Peace compared to a Reader’s Digest article. and you guys just buy into. And no matter what Jones says, his delusion checks out. They altered this, this happened, that happened. He gets debunked, and oh well, it’s some shifty conspiracy.
Government is trying to take more power all the time. Our Founding Fathers understood this and tried to impose limits. This is not secret stuff.
Except for loons selling DVDs and books. I’ll buy it when you can find one of these whack jobs to lay out a complete detailed plan on how they brought the towers down. Amount and type of explosives. how many app man hours. Way they accomplished it and no one was detected. Placement of charges.
They put out a lot of other info as they are enlightened and in the know. How about this. But you and Pete won’t post or find this, because then you would have the technical knowledge and know it is not possible what these whack jobs put forth.
Explain that to me and I’m a believer. Oh, throw in how the jet and all that burning fuel stuff helped. I’m sire you might need a little less of an explosion then. Don’t worry, I won’t be holding my breath.