Computer Science Degree

Thanks for the additional replies my friends.

I am kind of going into this with an open mind, and I accept the fact that I may try and use the degree as soon as I finish it or I may not ever use it at all. I enjoy my current role in my own business, but its just that I have set it up in a smaller country town, and I eventually see myself wanting to move out and experience other places/cities and things etc etc. Without giving out too much info, once I leave this business, it is dead, so getting someone else to run it is not an option. I do see there may be some opportunity that the experience I have had so far may open more doors once I “do” computer science.

Thanks again.

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[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hey theBird, I apologize for quick hi-jacking…

I’m about to start a database management graduate class and I was wondering if anyone knows of some good online resources for some background, terminology, etc…? I’m just looking for something to sink my teeth into before the textbook arrives. Maybe something dumbed down for an accountant…

Some of the topics I’m unfamiliar with are:
DB Environment
Logical DB design
SQL I (DDL)
SQL II (DML)

If the resource talks about ERM, relational model, and/or normalization I’ve covered those in the past, but would still be a useful reminder.

Thanks,

*Thanks theBird

[/quote]

I don’t know any online specific resources (I’m an old school guy w/ books). But I’ve taken a grad level db course. One of the books I used suggested familiarizing yourself w/ MS Access first, and even had an appendix with a sample db to create… probably took 30 min. to read their appendix and create the db.

It probably suggests this because you don’t need to know any “code” in Access and it is so visual, so it helps w/ the conception of how relational db’s are structured.

The only other suggestion I’d make is to start learning relational algebra. It’s useless in and of itself, but most courses use it as a learning tool and if you’ve been out of school for a while, it can be sort of a headache.

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hey theBird, I apologize for quick hi-jacking…

I’m about to start a database management graduate class and I was wondering if anyone knows of some good online resources for some background, terminology, etc…? I’m just looking for something to sink my teeth into before the textbook arrives. Maybe something dumbed down for an accountant…

Some of the topics I’m unfamiliar with are:
DB Environment
Logical DB design
SQL I (DDL)
SQL II (DML)

If the resource talks about ERM, relational model, and/or normalization I’ve covered those in the past, but would still be a useful reminder.

Thanks,

*Thanks theBird

[/quote]

I don’t know any online specific resources (I’m an old school guy w/ books). But I’ve taken a grad level db course. One of the books I used suggested familiarizing yourself w/ MS Access first, and even had an appendix with a sample db to create… probably took 30 min. to read their appendix and create the db.

It probably suggests this because you don’t need to know any “code” in Access and it is so visual, so it helps w/ the conception of how relational db’s are structured.

The only other suggestion I’d make is to start learning relational algebra. It’s useless in and of itself, but most courses use it as a learning tool and if you’ve been out of school for a while, it can be sort of a headache.[/quote]

Thanks!

I’m pretty sure there’s a group project using Access so I’ll probably take you advice and fool around with it this weekend.

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Hey theBird, I apologize for quick hi-jacking…

I’m about to start a database management graduate class and I was wondering if anyone knows of some good online resources for some background, terminology, etc…? I’m just looking for something to sink my teeth into before the textbook arrives. Maybe something dumbed down for an accountant…

Some of the topics I’m unfamiliar with are:
DB Environment
Logical DB design
SQL I (DDL)
SQL II (DML)

If the resource talks about ERM, relational model, and/or normalization I’ve covered those in the past, but would still be a useful reminder.

Thanks,

*Thanks theBird

[/quote]

I don’t know any online specific resources (I’m an old school guy w/ books). But I’ve taken a grad level db course. One of the books I used suggested familiarizing yourself w/ MS Access first, and even had an appendix with a sample db to create… probably took 30 min. to read their appendix and create the db.

It probably suggests this because you don’t need to know any “code” in Access and it is so visual, so it helps w/ the conception of how relational db’s are structured.

The only other suggestion I’d make is to start learning relational algebra. It’s useless in and of itself, but most courses use it as a learning tool and if you’ve been out of school for a while, it can be sort of a headache.[/quote]

I’ll second Access as a great way to get your feet wet.

The book that changed my career trajectory from a Logistics and Operations Professional to my present position of Sr. Business Analyst is…

…wait for it…

Access for Dummies. Plus an immediate application of what I read to develop a manufacturing management database to capture labor hours, calculate production line efficiency, factor in production line bottlenecks and theoretical machine maximums to create meaningful validation rules for labor and yield entries, and do other stuff too while be as user-friendly as a guy who was figuring it out as he went could make it.

I had the Access Bible too, but Access for dummies was definitely my go-to reference to figure most of that stuff out.

The DB was used for several years, it put me on the radar to be chosen for an SAP implementation team and now I make quite a bit more money than I used to.

Access is a great way to familiarize yourself with relational database concepts. It is also a good skill to have in general.

Thanks twojarslave. I just might grab access for dummies. I can’t see a career change for myself now, but we do employee a number of Business Analyst so you never know (they’re mostly in our Corporate HQ in NY though). What do you do with SAP if you don’t me asking? We use SAP where I work (like a lot of places), but I use it from an informational stand point. No data entry for me; although, I do create journal entries for entry that General Accounting will process. I wouldn’t mind learning more about the inner workings of SAP if it’s not mind numbingly difficult.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Thanks twojarslave. I just might grab access for dummies. I can’t see a career change for myself now, but we do employee a number of Business Analyst so you never know (they’re mostly in our Corporate HQ in NY though). What do you do with SAP if you don’t me asking? We use SAP where I work (like a lot of places), but I use it from an informational stand point. No data entry for me; although, I do create journal entries for entry that General Accounting will process. I wouldn’t mind learning more about the inner workings of SAP if it’s not mind numbingly difficult. [/quote]

Depends how “inner” of workings you want to get to. I don’t touch code, except if I’m feeling frosty and want to get an idea of what a program might be doing. I do some work with SQL, but I don’t consider that to be overly technical. I’m more “middle layer”. Not quite “inner”.

What I (and most who go by the title “Business Analyst”) do is something of a bridge between the business process side (management, user support) and the technical (developers). To put it in plain English, your business software must model your business process. Sometimes the software does this out-of-the box. Sometimes the software does not. When it doesn’t you can either change your process to match the software model or change the software to match the process model. It is my job to make them meet.

I maintain the configuration that comes with SAP. If a business process is not supported by SAP standard configuration, we may do custom developments. In cases like this, I will write a functional specification document that explains how the development should work to solve the problem and then work with ABAP developers to refine those specs and deliver a solution.

It is usually about 50% screen time (testing, maintaining configuration, more testing, some extra testing after that and testing to figure stuff out I’ve never touched before, and then some testing), 50% human interaction (meetings, training, requirements gathering, etc). This can vary wildly week-to-week.

I’m presently THE business analyst at a small company, so I support all aspects of the business. Finance, Controlling, Manufacturing, Shipping, Sales, Planning, everything falls to me right now. I will soon be on a support team, where I will be specializing in Materials Management and Production Planning. This specialization is more typical with software like SAP.

Having good understanding of the business processes you are supporting is just as, if not more important than having any real depth in your understanding of SAP. An accounting education and experience is absolutely ideal for this.

Pay is generally quite good. Sr. Business Analysts can top out well over $120k/year, which isn’t bad for a job with no direct reports and the bullshit that goes along with it. Project management can be a next step and managing a team of business analysts is another path to a bigger paycheck.

I’d like to continue building up my body of knowledge and experience and get into consulting in my 40’s. That’s where you can make some really big bucks. The most ridiculous invoice I’ve personally seen was one miracle worker’s hourly billing rate of $250.

Keeping on-topic, I’ve known several BA’s with degrees in Computer Science as well. There is not necessarily a single path to getting into this line of work. Technical and business knowledge are both important to have.

Thanks again twojarslave. I could see myself as a business analyst the way you’ve described it. I work with our Project Management team on setting their budget and my boss has even mentioned it might be something good to get into (for me because job growth is limited in the very small department I’m in. My current career path would be to become a Business Manager). I’ve been eyeing a project management certificate program. I believe it was through Penn State (their world campus, which is fancy for online lol).

My biggest obstacle(s) at this point are understanding our processes from a practitioners stand point (I see dollars and cents, but don’t see or interact with our boots on the ground so to speak with regard to the processes from beginning to end (with the exception of our returns process due to some audit involvement) and then understanding enough about developer abilities and limitation especially when it comes to SAP and another system we use called MARC (I believe this was an in house development). We also use a system called Kronos for our labor analysis, but again I only see labor distribution from an end user perspective. Basically I see 4-5 reports a month that show work done outside of an employees cost center only. I then allocate that cost to the appropriate cost center based on the labor reports via journal entry.

Lol, and trust me, I can understand the desire to consult. I’m involved in the billing process for a lot of our consultants and have seen some pretty darn impressive hourly rates… A lot of our SAP ABAP Developer consultants fall within the $130-$150/hr range for example.

[quote]boatguy wrote:
My sister is working on her undergrad for that right now, slogging her way through tons of calc and trig. She even has to take some physics courses as part of her degree path, which I thought was odd.

Good luck.[/quote]

So you don’t think video game designers need to understand the basic (and sometimes not so basic) laws of physics in order for the game to be playable??? Think man…

[quote]pja wrote:
So you don’t think video game designers need to understand the basic (and sometimes not so basic) laws of physics in order for the game to be playable??? Think man…[/quote]

A lot of jobs, esp on wall street, have qualifications like “degree in math, CS, or physics.”

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

To put it in plain English, your business software must model your business process. Sometimes the software does this out-of-the box. Sometimes the software does not. When it doesn’t you can either change your process to match the software model or change the software to match the process model. It is my job to make them meet.
[/quote]

Holy crap, I’ve been a BA this whole time, but def. not BA wages. I should probably look into transitioning into an official BA role, which would probably go well w/ my PM background.

For those looking to get into consulting, one thing to realize is the consultants rarely have a full week of billable hours, as they have to tend to their business development, vendors, etc. in addition to covering expenses and pay for their own benefits, so it isn’t all cash in hand. That being said, there is certainly some money to be made.

USMC, I’m assuming you’re a vet. In my poking around online a couple weeks ago, I came across some site where they prep vets for the PMI exams for free or at a steep discount (I think under 200), so you might want to look into that.

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
USMC, I’m assuming you’re a vet. In my poking around online a couple weeks ago, I came across some site where they prep vets for the PMI exams for free or at a steep discount (I think under 200), so you might want to look into that.[/quote]

Thanks man, I’ll have a look around.

As far as learning SQL, and some of the relational database concepts, the PostgreSQL manual looks to cover it fairly well, in section 2 (II) The SQL Language: PostgreSQL: Documentation: 9.4: The SQL Language Navigation is a bit klunky (top right, bottom right have next page links).

SQL is mostly the same across different database systems. It looks like they do a good job in that book of teaching the SQL alongside the higher-level design stuff.

On the other hand, that may be too in depth to start out.

Probably the biggest hint I can give you when reading programming related stuff is to read it for the concepts, rather than for memorization. I know a lot of people are so used to the memorize and regurgitate approach to teaching, but programming stuff is more about understanding concepts and applying them.

But I’d say it’s also worth looking into Access too, since, and I mean this without any offense, it’s a dumbed down version of a real database system. Most of the concepts are the same, and it’s generally easier to get stuff done in Access. Just about everything you learn for Access (design wise and concept wise) is applicable to other database systems.

No offense taken LoRez, thanks.

There’s also this, just as far as hands-on tutorial stuff. This is probably a gentler introduction to SQL itself.

[quote]1 Man Island wrote:

[quote]twojarslave wrote:

To put it in plain English, your business software must model your business process. Sometimes the software does this out-of-the box. Sometimes the software does not. When it doesn’t you can either change your process to match the software model or change the software to match the process model. It is my job to make them meet.
[/quote]

Holy crap, I’ve been a BA this whole time, but def. not BA wages. I should probably look into transitioning into an official BA role, which would probably go well w/ my PM background.

[/quote]

To be clear, this is a role that can have a vast scope of duties (depending on what the organization has you doing) and a vast array of actual job titles (again, depending on the organization). “Business Analyst” is very much an umbrella job title that can mean a lot of different things.

What the high-paying Business Analyst roles have in common is working with top tier ERP software (SAP, Oracle, Infor, JD Edwards (now part of Oracle), PeopleSoft (also owned by Oracle)) at large size companies, sometimes mid-sized. I’ve worked with JD Edwards and SAP, but mostly SAP.

Outside of those circumstances, I imagine that one company’s business analyst might be another company’s developer or technical support specialist. That’s not to say that there aren’t some BA’s making bank with Microsoft Navision, there may very well be, but it is not the scale of work I’m familiar with.

I broke into this work by getting picked for an SAP implementation team and working on a grueling project that lasted for five years. That’s how I made my bones. Others I’ve worked with got in with consulting firms who hired them on potential and education and then sent them to SAP certification courses. I’d say those are the two most common paths to getting into real BA work, at least with the people I’ve worked with.

In terms of commanding a high salary, I do not believe there is a substitute for implementation experience and delivered results. Companies value that.
I didn’t make what I do now when I first started on the implementation team, that’s for damn sure.

If you want to do it, go do it!

I have a friend who did a post-grad diploma in Comp Sci (equivalent of doing a major) after finishing a BA. She ended up getting a nice job from it, in Sydney, and she’s pretty happy with that. I have another friend in a small-ish town in Aussie who is trying to future-proof herself, a bit, as the mining won’t last forever, so maybe I hear where you are coming from a bit, on that…

I’d say Comp Sci could be a pretty good thing to try out and see how you find it. Worst case you decide you don’t want to do more than a semester or two. Little harm.

My 2 cents (didn’t read the whole thread): if you want to be able to make a great living doing a plethora of diverse things, study physics or CS, read up on Polya’s How To Solve It and enjoy the ride.

If these are indeed your requirements, you might want to read on.

If you only want to become a good software developer, CS won’t hurt, but isn’t really necessary as long as you can wrap your head around the O-Notation and apply it to software design. In addition to this, you’d be well advised to start coding. Learn the basics. Read lots of code. Learn basic software engineering principles. Make mistakes. Contribute to an open-source project. Improve. Write code. Read code. Learn about Test Automation. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Caveat:

  1. being a systems theory aficionado, I might be biased
  2. being an auto-didact, I only studied because it makes things so much easier in our world (labels and all) which brings me to
  3. if for some reason you cannot afford to study: we live in a day and age that allows you to learn all that stuff without enrolling at Uni - but see 2.

I have a Master’s degree in CS (and also degree in Computer Engineering, for shits and giggles), spent a few years as a science consultant (I’m also a published author), ran the gamut of software development, business / process analyst, project management, management consultant to IT Strategy where I’m now, heading my own division. So far, I’ve solved problems for science, humanities, finance, insurance, logistics, telco. I’m involved in project acquisition, requirements engineering, IT architecture, marketing and even software development if I so choose. I bridge a lot of gaps which makes me invaluable to potential employers.

I like to think of CS as having given me tools I can apply to any field / problem domain, thus giving me the agility to work in any field I choose. Which brings me back to my opening statement: do you need CS for this? No. Physics (in my biased opinion) would also be a good choice. But from my perspective, CS gives you the best tools for the goals I stated.

By the way, in school, I disliked maths and was very much a humanities guy who wanted to become a physician. CS made me appreciate maths. Still having fond memories of mathematics students belittling us CS folks, though :wink:

Thanks for all the replies. They have been very helpful! Sounds like a diverse area, and that is something that appeals to me, as at the moment my area of expertise is not very “diverse” and I am craving something to stimulate my mind.

[quote]alexus wrote:
I have a friend who did a post-grad diploma in Comp Sci (equivalent of doing a major) after finishing a BA. She ended up getting a nice job from it, in Sydney, and she’s pretty happy with that. I have another friend in a small-ish town in Aussie who is trying to future-proof herself, a bit, as the mining won’t last forever, so maybe I hear where you are coming from a bit, on that…

I’d say Comp Sci could be a pretty good thing to try out and see how you find it. Worst case you decide you don’t want to do more than a semester or two. Little harm.[/quote]
Hey Alexus!!

How have you been stranger?!
Thanks for the reply. Please visit my training log some time soon. The crew miss you.

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