Clomidiphene Citrate for Low Testosterone

[quote]Saskman84 wrote:
I did not yet see the results for the Prolactin. I know it was ordered before but maybe the lab oversaw it and made a mistake, I will make a note of it for the urologist in a couple of weeks.

If Clomid and bioactive testosterone are not good, what do you suggest?

I have no libido and it prevents me from marriage, I am in good health (other then this) and not overweight. I do fitness regularly. I probably sufferer ed since a teenager.

I feel stronger on Clomid and believe I made muscle gains, dont have much more libido though there are days it seems to be getting better.[/quote]

You understood bit wrong what i meant with bioactive testosterone.
I mean how much your body can use the testosterone you have available.

From what i understood your doctor wants to keep you on clomid because you possibly want kids but with clomid and generally you have weak libido / erection. How bad ED? Need to know exactly, weak erection, it lasts 2 mins and it’s gone? What about ejaculation with partner, can you ejaculate other than when masturbating?

The reason your doc wants you to use clomid instead is that testosterone injections will cause infertility to majority of males, but it’s definitely not 100% and cannot be considered as mean of protection like condoms etc. You could still possibly have kids while on TRT. My now old dad even had my sister while he was on D-Bol and other stuff back in the mid 80’s.

However, clomid will not affect your swimmers aka sperm, on the contrary. It increases sperm count and mobility.
The downside with long term clomid use is that it’s bound to cause ED symptoms. Not helping if you’ve had ED from teenager ( propably always low testosterone level ).

I’m not trying to patronaze you if you get that expression btw. :slight_smile:

Estrogen = Female hormone
Testosterone = Male hormone

To put it simply and somewhat bluntly:

  • clomid will raise your testosterone production considerably.
  • One! thing clomid does is that it blocks estrogen in the pituitary.
  • Pituitary now sees little estrogen and tells your body to make more LH.
  • LH makes leydig cells in your testicles to make more testosterone
  • Your testosterone levels will start to raise
  • The more testosterone you develop ( doesn’t matter if injection or your body naturally ), the more estrogen you will make.

your body, bluntly:

  • Your body loves homeostasis in almost everything ( things are balanced )

  • Mess with something, and some good and equally negative thing will happen.

  • Negative can out do the positive, and vice versa, more often the negative.

  • Most estrogen in male body comes from testosterone through enzyme called aromatase.

  • Raise your testosterone and your estrogen levels will raise aswell because your body likes homeostasis ( i repeat this one too ).

  • Aromatase enzyme starts to make estrogen out of your testosterone through process called biosynthesis. I wish it could turn lead to gold too but nah.

  • High estrogen will result to testosterone not being able to do its work.

  • All the amount of testosterone in the world won’t make any difference if
    it cannot bind and therefore act.

  • High estrogen levels as well as really low ( specificly estrogen called E2/estradiol ) is linked to ED and loss of libido. This is the reason you want it controlled and to know lab test results.

  • This is why people use AI ( aromatase inhibitors ) to limit the amount of estrogen being converted from testosterone, or Serms, like clomid for small amounts of time. Not year round. For example, bodybuilders uses excessive amounts of testosterone going far beyond what human physiology can manufacture naturally, hence without control through other medication their estrogen levels as an example will raise off the roof because again your body wants to balance things out = aromatase makes it from testosterone.

If you are not planning to have kids now, you could aswell aim for traditional TRT which is testosterone injection. Combine with small amounts of AI and HCG ( you have to look them up yourself better ).
I’m not qualified to tell you dozes.

All in all my friend, we need to know the latest lab results before any real speculation and advice can be given about your state in specific.

Was ED the only problem in your sex life or was there any infertility issues already known? I don’t know about your sperm count and stuff, but clomid doesn’t guarantee 100% fertility, in some studys males with infertility issues had around 37% success rate to make it ( while using Clomid ).
Well, naturally erection and fertility are very different things.

All the best!

1 Like

I just noticed your replies in other thread in the forum and i’d want to ask more questions if it’s ok. You state you need medication for erection.

I’m also very interested of dual use of Clomid and PDE
( phosphodiesterases ) Inhibitor = ( ED meds such as viagra, Cialis etc ).

  • Could you please tell what ED med ( if any ) you are currently taking at the moment?
  • Did doctor tell you about any studies regarding that clomid and ED medication affects blood flow to your optic nerve/eyes for example?
  • How long have you been on ED med and do you have life partner and use it regularly?
  • Can you masturbate up to ejaculation without ED meds?

Have you experienced any symptoms of:

  • Tinnitus of ears
  • Vision blur
  • somewhat regular nausea
  • high blood pressure

Thanks!

[quote]Divyx wrote:
Was ED the only problem in your sex life or was there any infertility issues already known?
[/quote]

ED is the only known issue. I never tried to have children. I lost my sex drive as a teenager, I can remember having a strong sex drive until 16 but something happened at this age and it never left.

[quote]Divyx wrote:

  • Could you please tell what ED med ( if any ) you are currently taking at the moment?
  • Did doctor tell you about any studies regarding that clomid and ED medication affects blood flow to your optic nerve/eyes for example?
  • How long have you been on ED med and do you have life partner and use it regularly?
  • Can you masturbate up to ejaculation without ED meds?
    [/quote]

He prescribed me Cialis once a day, 5mg, I was taking 2.5 but I havent taken it for a few days. At 2.5 it seems to have a positive impact, at 5 it will have a better impact. I also have Staxyn, tried it once to see if it works and have not used it since.

Doctors didn’t tell me about any studies.

I have been taking ED meds since my early 20s, Levitra, Sidenafil. I haven’t used it overly regularly, except for weeks at a time. I’ve had short term girlfriends but mostly avoided relationships. I was suppose to marry someone I dated casually over a period of 10-years but got too nervous due to this issue, I confessed about having an endocrine disorder/low testosterone and started a problem about a different issue to thrwat the marriage plan, but still be on friendly terms.

The ED PDE5 drugs have never not worked. When I use to take Levitra 20mg it would work too well, like a porn star almost. I stopped using Levitra because of the high cost and switched to generic sildenafil.

I really want to get married soon but hoping to at least fix my problem or know what it is, which I believe I do know now. Still feeling muscular improvement, definite Clomid impact but nothing sexually.

And yeah, I can ejaculate without PDE5 drugs. Just require constant stimulation and the erection isn’t as good as it would be with PDE5 drugs.

[quote]Divyx wrote:
Have you experienced any symptoms of:

  • Tinnitus of ears
  • Vision blur
  • somewhat regular nausea
  • high blood pressure

Thanks![/quote]

Nope, none of that. On PDE5 drugs I get stuffy a bit sometimes.

Thanks for the information about Clomid though, I will keep posting the results as I get them.

Hi guys, I don’t have my labs as there was a “sealing error” in the transportation of my serum testosterone, but I will have new ones mid next week.

I do however have a good update which I hope is not short lived but permanent. During my last visit on the 4th, 3-months after Clomid, the urologists confirmed that my LH and FSH both went up, my thyroid which was 4.5 before Clomid is now 2.5 miu/L (no longer underactive) and my cholesterol also went down 35%. Unfortunately I do not know what my T itself is, because the 3rd vial of blood wasn’t sealed properly so I had to do it again two days ago.

Doctor was surprised that I told him I wasn’t having increased erections, but I did have increased muscle mass which is clearly making changes to my body tone with weight lifting. He then decided he wanted to see if I have chemical imbalance and prescribed me Wellbutrin to increase dopamine production. He said it also has positive sexual side effects.

WELL, after only 3-days of Wellbutrin and Clomid together, I have attained erections like never before- since the problem started- suspected hypogonadism at 15.5 years. I have increased sensitivity, increased strength erection strength, increased intensity, its actually better then when I used PDE5 drugs. I also woke up with an extremely maxed out morning wood today.

Its really hard for me to believe that whatever this disease or disorder is, that has plagued me for half my life which were suppose to be my prime has finally been detected. I hope the effects are not temporary.

I feel happy and optimistic, but also nervous if improvement doesn’t continue or remain. I will post my updated labs soon.

Well folks- it’s official. After over a decade of having an androgen deficiency, Clomiphene Citrate has raised my T levels to 28.7 ng or almost 800 nmol.

I’ve been feeling better but doctor says it may take six months to feel good.

Has anyone else had success with Clomiphene long term for low T?

I have been on clomid 25mg eod for a month and i feel 5 years younger. Strength has gone up considerably at the gym. Havent had an ED problem but the wife said it felt harder.

Saskman84, so what is the length of time that the doc thinks you’ll be on Clomid? 6 months without side effects?
Vets, what do you feel would be a trigger for increasing dosage to 50 mg, a certain T level?
I’m 40 yrs old, 150 T, low motivation, good strength, no morning wood, recently started Clomid 25 mg EOD.
After 3 weeks, T went from 150 to 425, excellent all night wood, motivated at work, no strength gains.
Will retest at 3 mos. mark.

[quote]Lobo11 wrote:
Saskman84, so what is the length of time that the doc thinks you’ll be on Clomid? 6 months without side effects?
Vets, what do you feel would be a trigger for increasing dosage to 50 mg, a certain T level?
I’m 40 yrs old, 150 T, low motivation, good strength, no morning wood, recently started Clomid 25 mg EOD.
After 3 weeks, T went from 150 to 425, excellent all night wood, motivated at work, no strength gains.
Will retest at 3 mos. mark.[/quote]

Lobo11,

My urologist did not specify the duration I would be on Clomid (here in Canada known as Serophene), but he did say that treatment is usually lifelong. I notice a lot of people, the majority are taking 25 not 50 and still having success. Some people are taking it every other day at 25. I am hoping that I can cut the dose as it would also cut the price 50%. This drug is not covered since its a fertility drug while testosterone would be

Your results really are encouraging too. I didnt notice night time erections much until I started on Wellbutrin two weeks ago, almost immediately I felt changes like Ive never experienced since my hypogonadism started at 15, including in sensitivity of the penis.

As for strength, do you lift weights? Ive noticed a major difference in my pump and have increased the weight I can lift on certain exercises. I also feel more energetic. Still a little brain fog, but that could be a magnitude of things.

Saskman84,
I’m glad that you’ve been able to turn that ship around and found something that works for you. It is good read about people following similar protocols. ALso, since you began your journey earlier.

About 3 years ago, my motivation at work went to shit and that was the main reason why I looked into this. 4 months ago I was fed up and ready to go on TRT but the doc suggested Clomid, so here I am.

My lifts have not increased. I was able to maintain mass and strength even with old lady T so I think I’d need to have HIGH levels of T in order to make gains.

I just read the stickies recommended by KSman and have been reading several of his posts. Trying to get as much info as I can on his Nolvadex restart protocol (it would actually be cheaper for me) but in the meantime, I will continue the clomid.

Well I received maybe bad news today.

Well my T levels are near 800, my Estrogen levels are out of range as well. My Estradiol came back at 65 pg/ml or 260 pmol/L.

KSman, do you think I should also take Armidex or an estrogen inhibitor with clomiphene? I cut back my dose today to 25 mg from 50, without advice of the urologist who hasn’t replied to my email.

I was feeling so good, then I wasn’t, I wonder if its because of the high E.

Hi everyone. These are my updated labs after 3-months of 50mg Clomifene Citrate everyday. I was feeling really good after a month but then started to feel like how I was feeling before. Erections did improve. Strength improved, but nothing dramatic. Due to my high Estrogen (self interpreted), I cut the dose of Clomid to 25mg and started taking Zinc citrate. I am wondering if Estrogen is the problem now. If anyone can give me any feedback on this, I’d highly appreciate it.

Testosterone: 28.30 nmol/l (5-28)
SHBG: 34 (13-71)
Free Androgen Index: 82.3 (14.8-94.8)
WBC: 7.3 (4-10)
RBC: 4.99 (4.3-5.4)
Calcium: 2.4 (2.14-2.66)
Albumin: 40 (35-50)
Corrected Calcium: 2.4 (2.14-2.66)
Co2 - Carbon Dioxide: 25 (21-30)
ALP - Alkaline Phosphatase: 54 (40-135) U/L
AST - Aspartate Aminotransferase: 30 (5-35) U/L
Sodium: 139 (135-145) mmol/L
Potassium: 5.2 (3.5-5.0) mmol/L
Chloride: 107 (98-110) mmol/L
Urea: 5.9 (3.0-7.1) mmol/L
Creatine: 87 (60-130) umol/L

Cholesterol (F): 4.44 (3.80-5.20) mmol/L
Triglyceride (F): 1.03 (.35-1.70) mmol/L
HDL Cholesterol (F): 0.98 (0.90-2.40) mmol/L
LDL Cholesterol: 2.99 mmol/L
ALT - Alanine Aminotransferase: 37 (4-55) U/L
GGT - Gamma Glutamyl Transferase: 28 (15-73) U/L

Estradiol 240 pmol/L (out of range)
Prolactin (F): 7.92 (2.6-18.10) ug/L
Total PSA: 0.6 (0.0-4.0) ug/L
FSH (F): 15.73 IU/L
LH: 17.10 (1.5-9.3 IU/L)
TSH Screen: 3.52 (0.49-4.67

Also, for the record:

Height: 5’10 (180cm)
Weight: 180lbs
Hair on body?: Yes, on chest and in normal places but I don’t shave nearly as much as my relatives.
Testicular aches: no
Muscle Mass problems: never able to make gains at the gym.
Age problem started: 16, treated at 31.

From 07/23/2015:
“”"
Too much SERM [docs often over-prescribe] can create LH/FSH levels that are too high and then T–>E2 in the testes can be very high and serum E2 levels are then high. This is a good target: E2=22pg/ml. High LH levels can also desensitize LH receptors which is counter productive!
“”"

Anastrozole does not work inside the testes to reduce T–>E2 that occurs there. So results of anastrozole can be inadequate.

When you test LH/FSH while on Clomid, you can expect high LH/FSH.
You got:
FSH (F): 15.73 IU/L
LH: 17.10 (1.5-9.3 IU/L)
Estradiol 240 pmol/L <<<<<<<<<< your target is 80 pmol/L

So this is predicable as I stated. Docs don’t get it.

Hey KSMAN,

Thanks for the reply.

Do you have any advice for me that would help lower my E levels while on Clomid?

If an AI is not enough, take less SERM as high LH is the problem.

i tripled my testosterone with 25 mg/day of clomid. (285 to 893).

i also bottomed out my estradiol (25 to <5) with only .1 mg/day of A-dex. (i will rectify that by stopping the A-dex)

KSman is right… there’s no reason for 50 mg of clomid a day. there are tons of studies on men using clomid for TRT, and i don’t think any of them use doses that high…

Thanks guys.

I noticed most were having success on 25 a day or even every other day, yet i was taking 50 per day. After getting my levels checked, I myself decided based on the forum responses and studies I’ve read on the net, to cut my dose in half my 2. So far I feel much better. I also started out taking the zinc 50mg daily. It also saves me $85 a month by taking 25 instead of 50!

I asked about the armidex but I never got a response back…

Hopefully in December if my E levels are still high the doc will prescribe!

New thread that applies here:
https://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_trt/hpta_restart_for_trt_guys_with_application_to_gear_and_pct

[quote]Saskman84 wrote:
Thanks guys.

I noticed most were having success on 25 a day or even every other day, yet i was taking 50 per day. After getting my levels checked, I myself decided based on the forum responses and studies I’ve read on the net, to cut my dose in half my 2. So far I feel much better. I also started out taking the zinc 50mg daily. It also saves me $85 a month by taking 25 instead of 50!

I asked about the armidex but I never got a response back…

Hopefully in December if my E levels are still high the doc will prescribe![/quote]

well, since your E2 is high, one would assume an AI (arimidex, or whatever) will help.

i doubt lowering your clomid will cause your E2 levels to come down very fast, so it might be better to get the estrogen under control quicker, and taper off and see if it remains good.

Just an update. After 5 months of Clomid use I feel as bad as I ever felt. It is disappointing because after starting Clomid I felt like a new person as I figure I suffered over half my life (since age of 15 or 16) with hypogonadism. The surge in libido, penile sensation, strong morning erections, energy, pumps at gym, better concentration, have all sunk.

I understand my estradiol level is very high, so I have cut the dose of Clomid to 25 and now to 12.5 per day. Early Dec I have a urologist appointment and its likely if my bone density turns out favourable, he will put me on an AI.

I am so disappointed by this. I re-entered a relationship and now have to make excuses to avoid intimancy. Even the PDE5 drugs no longer work after Clomid use. Its really terrible.

Can anyone tell me if Clomid initially raised by T, then stopped working, could I have primary hypogonadism (this started when I was 15 but I never knew until 30!)? Probably a genetic condition like Kallman syndrome or something? I was never scrawny but had trouble putting on muscle gains and I tried hard.

Also my Thyroid TSH was between 3.-4.5 miu/l. Could this cause my hypogonadism? Doctor seems clueless on thyroid-hypogonadism correlation.

hi guys,

can anyone please give me any advice on starting anastrozole? i will start taking 1 mg today. since i began clomid for hypogonadism which started as a mid teenager, my t levels went up. my estradiol levels are out of control, over 2 1/2 times the range which is considered high. my t is at 588 (it was 800 while i was taking 50mg of clomid a day but dropped since i started 25).

other things that happened is my thyroid is 0.04 miu/L from being fully recognized on paper as underactive. the correlation between thyroid and t for me was that my thyroid was down to 2.5 (it’s usually mid 4’s) when i started Clomid. it seemed that an increase in T initially helped my thyroid.

i am very nervous now, the only thing that keeping me hopeful is that i know how good i felt when i started clomid and the drastic improvements- albeit short lived- were. he started talking about penile injections and even mentioned a penile implant (though along way from that he said) as well as the venous leak that the doppler showed. i know venous leaks are linked to low t. my venous leak went away when clomid started to work. now, with the high estradiol, not even pde5 drugs are working.

can anyone please recommend how to take anastrozole and clomid together, dosing would be helpful… as well as anyone who has experienced these drugs and the effect they had?