I don’t need evidence because I already have enough strong circumstantial evidence in the symptoms mentioned and labs values by members, it’s all I need to make a strong case for what is causing their symptoms.
I suppose you would ask your doc to provide evidence why he is making the adjustment to a protocol and that you need proof before going forward. You’re an idiot.
You’re as pig-headed as @dbossa!
Thanks bud! I question how you come to the conclusions you do, and instead of offering evidence for what you assert, you call me an idiot?
I have stated numerous times I go based off symptoms and lab values and you continue to come at me with accusations that I’m making assumptions as to whether someone is experiencing symptoms of high estrogen.
Then you go on about maybe it could be something else (hormonal fluctuations) even though the only maker that is out of range is the estrogen. So you want us to take a leap of faith without proof and then accuse me of making assumptions.
Then you wonder why people are calling you an idiot. I think there should be other called out in a thread because it seems we have double standards.
But you haven’t shown that the symptoms are caused by high E.
Out of range? Says who? What range?
Nope. You’re the only one calling me an idiot.
I can play the same game.
The only way to diagnose low-T is via lab values and symptoms, doctors do it every day and can’t prove it, they take an educated guess and what I did is no different.
To this I say give it more time, also just because nobody has called you an idiot doesn’t mean no one is thinking it. I’m sorry a lack of response of members on a day known for a lack of attendance by members doesn’t excuse the double standards you’ve created and being a hypocrite.
I’ll ignore the previous posts. Don’t want to get into another pissing match with a certain passive-aggressive poster.
Yes, your numbers look good on paper but you don’t feel right, so something is wrong. My personal (brief) experience with Clomid is similar to yours. I just didn’t feel quite right. I don’t recommend it as a long-term solution. If you are in the process of trying to conceive a child, it might be worth feeling like $#it for a while to get the job done, but it’s not a viable replacement for TRT in my (brief) experience.
What HCG side-effects are you worried about? I’ve been using it for over 8 years at varying doses ranging from about 400 to 1000 IU per week (in E3D dosing) and have no perceivable side-effects.
It sounds like you’ve done some homework and are wanting to go to TRT. It sounds like a good choice provided you get over your fear of HCG. My best advice, which I’m sure will get flamed by a certain individual who pushes high doses, is to start TRT at around 100mg per week in at least twice weekly dosing. I much prefer every 3 day dosing (E3D). After six weeks, retest and make dosing decisions based on Free T levels. Increase as needed until you are in the range of 75-100 percentile of a normal healthy person of your age group. The actual numbers will vary from lab to lab and with different test methods, but using LabCorps Direct (RIA) method, I wouldn’t push it past about 27pg/mL. Again, you’ll need to interpret the results within your laboratory’s normal ranges.
Regarding E2, I wouldn’t be too worried about it unless you go way out of range. My advice is to stick with small frequent dosing to keep both the peek and nadir levels of Free T within range at all times. I’ve been doing a dose-response experiment over the past year. I’ve got one more dose at 140 mg/week to complete the experiment. Working on that one now. I do measurements after 6 weeks of each dosing level. See the graph below. Based on my results, it looks like my new optimal dose will be between 90 and 125 mg of T-cyp per week in an E3D protocol.
Alright, I’ll bite. How am I being a hypocrite?
Thanks for the advice/info. I’m afraid to use hcg because I’ve had horrible cystic acne in the past and it was the lowest I’ve felt in my life. I basically sat in my house 24/7 because my self esteem was non existant. It was horrible and I have a lot of facial scars left to remind me. That’s honestly the only reason I’m avoiding hcg. I’ve heard it causes side effects in a lot of people based on what others say about their experiences and I just really dont want to take the risk.
I know TRT can cause acne too so I wanted to take it slow and just start with one thing then maybe add hcg down the road. That way if it does give me sides I can narrow it down to that instead of starting T+hcg+ai and not knowing what could be messing with me.
I already explained it to you and it’s clear you just want to argue. I’m not going to waste time with a stubborn person, goodbye.
A very good approach to TRT. I generally recommend layering in HCG after you get your T dose nailed down. In the relatively short amount of time that it will take you there will not be any irreversible testicular atrophy. I’ve gone up to 3 months with no HCG for various reasons over my 8+ years of TRT.
A suggestion, and I hate to make it for fear of the fear mongers torching me, is that you monitor your DHT while dialing the dose. I did not do this until only a few years ago and found that my DHT was consistently (and significantly) out of range. That my be the issue behind your acne. Then again, it may also be elevated E2. Though I’m not an expert on the subject (never had acne problems so I’ve never researched it), I’ve heard folks in forums discuss both of the hormones as being primarily responsible. DHT can be easily controlled with a certain medication that I hate to mention due to fear monger response hijacking the thread. I use the drug for reasons other than acne and have had no discernible side-effects.
What kind of dose should I start on if I decide to start? I keep hearing so much conflicting info. Some say 100mg, but some say 100mg is too low and start at minimum 150mg. Some say 200mg.
The reason you are getting conflicting info is because you want to know how much is a good starting dosage, the problem with this is TRT is trial and error and nobody can predict how much T is needed because everyone is different.
Like any other hormone treatment you start low.
Starting at 100 is good. That may be all you need. Key is to to wait about 8 weeks before you access symptoms and labs.
Would it be a bad idea to start with a smaller dose and work my way up over a month? I’m asking because idk if having the test levels I have now with clomid will affect me and skew my feelings on my protocol. My levels will probably be higher in the beginning because I havent shut down yet. So until I shut down I wont know my true level or feelings of symptoms with a certain protocol because my natural testosterone will have it elevated.
For example: Do 80mg week 1 and 2, then goto 100mg week 3 and 4, then 125mg until I do my blood work at week 8?
Before you dismiss the idea of lowering clomiphene and increasing LT4 do yourself a favor and look for the clomiphene threat of Dr Saya at excelmale.
You have a 50:50 probably that your symptoms are coming mostly from the undetreatment of your thyroid disease. Most likely underdosed, potentially you need a T4/T3 combo. If you jump on TRT the chance is high that you won’t benefit from it.
Secondly you have to understand the biochemistry of clomiphene. It’s composed of two parts; a mostly estrogenic part (zuclomiphene) and a mostly antiestrogenic part (enclomiphene). The tricky part with clomiphene is to find the correct dose because the impact on the T to E ratio is not linear with the dose. This is due to the different half life’s of the two parts. Enclomiphene has a much shorter half life than zuclomiphene, that’s why with increasing doses of clomiphene the estrogenic part increases almost exponentially.
And it’s the T to E ratio which is mostly correlated with many of the symptoms of androgen deficiency.
Just some of the many articles on that topic;
Hmmmm this may be true, but neurological alteration (irritability, mood swings) etc are common manifestations pertaining to chronic usage as you’ve specified. Using Clomid short term as a “restart” is efficient
But if you’re got secondary hypogonadism and put the guy on Clomid, whose to say T won’t dip down to baseline once again if the initial variable causing the hypogonadism is still present? We have no data regarding whether SERMS are safe for long term usage in men (or do we? I’m unaware)
Do you believe these drugs (given the documented potential side effects) could be safe (well “safe” is a fluid concept) let’s say… safe like 200mg test (some guys acquire absurdly high TT/FT whilst on Clomid… I’ve seen values posted upwards of 2000ng/dl)
Will dropping from 3.5 to below 2 TSH really make a night and day difference though when it comes to libido, erections, fatigue, etc?
My doctor appt isnt for another 3 weeks. My levothyroxine dosage is 88mcg. Do you think it would be a good idea to alternate between 1 and 1 and a half pills per day? So I’d take 88mcg day 1, 132mcg day 2, 88mcg day 3, etc.
That would basically be like me upping my dose 22mcg for the time being I think
I think you’re over complicating it. Some good advice from @youthful55guy although I don’t agree with starting that low but it’s subjective. Start at 100. Do that for around 6-8 weeks. If still not feeling great up it. I went from 100 to 150 to 180 to 200 then 250 then back to 200. I feel best between 180-200 mg/week
I’ve tried HCG numerous times, clomid etc. I don’t feel great on clomid. Try everything, establish what works and stay the course. Good luck.
It can, difficult to predict. But the point is you are currently not treated according to principles of best practice. And it’s an easy fix and you don’t want to go on TRT at your age wondering what would have happened had I fixed the thyroid issue first. Especially if the alternative is underground TRT.
The drop in clomiphene to 12.5 eod will give you a bit of a boost T/E ratio wise.
Yes, this can be done as the half life of LT4 is around 4 to 6 days. It will even out.
Enough time to go the TRT route if you don’t see any improvements within 1 to 2 months.
It will go back to baseline once clomiphene is stopped. But the advantage is the preserved/improved fertility and the fact that it will ‘only’ go back to baseline and not to 0 with a slow recovery as when TRT is stopped.
The latest study; but not reaching T levels comparable to 200 mg T per week when clomiphene is given in low doses to reduce sides. Only normal physiological levels are typically reported.
