Claiming Moral Authority

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.

Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.

Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?

If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]

the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[/quote]
How so?

Just to make sure we’re on the same page, here; We are talking about the concept of right and wrong as it pertains to human behavior, right?

Or are you really debating the concept of ‘right’?

[/quote]

Are morals stories or the summation of a story or are they the concept of right and wrong?

I have my concept of right and wrong and I Govern my life accordingly. I should have no right to thrust my concepts on you nor should any one have that right to thrust their concepts of right and wrong on me (unless I am harming some one else)
[/quote]

And there the problem lies. I just described how your concept of it does not matter. If your concept of right includes something that is immoral, then it’s still immoral whether you think it’s right or not. You are not the master of morality, your own or anybody elses. It is what it is, and you cannot change it by a sheer act of will.[/quote]

Please prove that
[/quote]

I did on page 3 where I answered your last ‘prove it’ with:

“Simple, that which is evil is evil despite whether one thinks it is or not. For instance, is it ever moral to rape a child?
When an there is an act that causes grievous harm from a sentient being to or on another sentient being, that act is inherently evil. Even if society at large condones the evil action, the action is still evil. I choose to focus on the evil aspect because it’s easier to agree on examples.
What morality is, is inexpressible in language but actions demonstrate various aspects of morality.
Relative morality, which is what you are expressing breaks down in reality. Something being acceptable to one or more person does not define that act as moral. Like in the slavery example, it was always wrong and always immoral, but at certain points in history it was accepted. That didn’t do much for the slaves, they still suffered the evils of slavery. It’s wrong to enslave another, it’s wrong to denigrate and devalue a person. But they were and it was accepted. When people pointed out the truth, they were scoffed at, then they were opposed violently, then slavery being evil was accepted as always being self evident.
Because this fact was true outside the minds of people, it’s proof that this moral tenant and therefore morality exists independently of the human mind.”

Since we’re into proving things, prove morality is relative…
Prove that rape, murder, slavery, etc. could be considered ‘moral’ based on personal concepts of morality.
The problem with relative morality is that, at least in theory, you have to prove then, the most abominable acts could be considered moral. So you prove it. [/quote]

This is not proof of any thing this is mere opinion. I am not stating any thing about rape, murder, slavery, etc.

I will ask you a few questions When the state executes someone in that immoral ? We put people in Prison is that slavery ?

In my opinion there is going to be no proof of your opinion because it is simply an opinion that you and a minority share[/quote]

Why won’t you state anything about rape, murder, or slavery? Serious question. Do you feel they are too difficult or impossible to prove as wrong, or is it something else?

Also, by virtually any definition of slavery, prison does not fit that bill. Slavery is not a punishment, that would be servitude. Like in the case of an indentured servant, where one works off his debt. That is CLOSER to being in prison than slavery. [/quote]

No I feel Rape, Murder and slavery are wrong. I am not sure what you want
[/quote]
I think it’s just the fact that the human mind has a hard time dealing with the idea of something that has no origin.

My origin of morality is Christ and His teachings. That’s why love, compassion, forgiveness, and generosity are at the top of the scale.

What is the origin of your personal ideal of morality? What are the core concepts? How do you define it when it’s not so cut-and-dried?

142

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.

Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.

Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?

If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]

the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[/quote]
How so?

Just to make sure we’re on the same page, here; We are talking about the concept of right and wrong as it pertains to human behavior, right?

Or are you really debating the concept of ‘right’?

[/quote]

Are morals stories or the summation of a story or are they the concept of right and wrong?

I have my concept of right and wrong and I Govern my life accordingly. I should have no right to thrust my concepts on you nor should any one have that right to thrust their concepts of right and wrong on me (unless I am harming some one else)
[/quote]

And there the problem lies. I just described how your concept of it does not matter. If your concept of right includes something that is immoral, then it’s still immoral whether you think it’s right or not. You are not the master of morality, your own or anybody elses. It is what it is, and you cannot change it by a sheer act of will.[/quote]

Please prove that
[/quote]

I did on page 3 where I answered your last ‘prove it’ with:

“Simple, that which is evil is evil despite whether one thinks it is or not. For instance, is it ever moral to rape a child?
When an there is an act that causes grievous harm from a sentient being to or on another sentient being, that act is inherently evil. Even if society at large condones the evil action, the action is still evil. I choose to focus on the evil aspect because it’s easier to agree on examples.
What morality is, is inexpressible in language but actions demonstrate various aspects of morality.
Relative morality, which is what you are expressing breaks down in reality. Something being acceptable to one or more person does not define that act as moral. Like in the slavery example, it was always wrong and always immoral, but at certain points in history it was accepted. That didn’t do much for the slaves, they still suffered the evils of slavery. It’s wrong to enslave another, it’s wrong to denigrate and devalue a person. But they were and it was accepted. When people pointed out the truth, they were scoffed at, then they were opposed violently, then slavery being evil was accepted as always being self evident.
Because this fact was true outside the minds of people, it’s proof that this moral tenant and therefore morality exists independently of the human mind.”

Since we’re into proving things, prove morality is relative…
Prove that rape, murder, slavery, etc. could be considered ‘moral’ based on personal concepts of morality.
The problem with relative morality is that, at least in theory, you have to prove then, the most abominable acts could be considered moral. So you prove it. [/quote]

This is not proof of any thing this is mere opinion. I am not stating any thing about rape, murder, slavery, etc.

I will ask you a few questions When the state executes someone in that immoral ? We put people in Prison is that slavery ?

In my opinion there is going to be no proof of your opinion because it is simply an opinion that you and a minority share[/quote]

Why won’t you state anything about rape, murder, or slavery? Serious question. Do you feel they are too difficult or impossible to prove as wrong, or is it something else?

Also, by virtually any definition of slavery, prison does not fit that bill. Slavery is not a punishment, that would be servitude. Like in the case of an indentured servant, where one works off his debt. That is CLOSER to being in prison than slavery. [/quote]

No I feel Rape, Murder and slavery are wrong. I am not sure what you want
[/quote]
I think it’s just the fact that the human mind has a hard time dealing with the idea of something that has no origin.

My origin of morality is Christ and His teachings. That’s why love, compassion, forgiveness, and generosity are at the top of the scale.

What is the origin of your personal ideal of morality? What are the core concepts? How do you define it when it’s not so cut-and-dried?[/quote]

I am in total agreement , I love people and would only hurt some one to protect me or mine , I grew up Pentecostal .

My interpretation of the ideal human is kind, compassionate and antiknow it all. You will have to explain “CORE CONCEPTS”

143

^

If morality isn’t a law, then basically you have to argue against the existence of morality because by definition, morals are immutable laws.

As I see it, there are fitter and less fit understandings and descriptions of morality just like gravity. But regardless of the model used to describe it, it’s still there.

Quite frankly Pitt, I don’t know your stance on morality.

144

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

If morality isn’t a law, then basically you have to argue against the existence of morality because by definition, morals are immutable laws.

As I see it, there are fitter and less fit understandings and descriptions of morality just like gravity. But regardless of the model used to describe it, it’s still there.

Quite frankly Pitt, I don’t know your stance on morality. [/quote]

I am a good person

145

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

If morality isn’t a law, then basically you have to argue against the existence of morality because by definition, morals are immutable laws.

As I see it, there are fitter and less fit understandings and descriptions of morality just like gravity. But regardless of the model used to describe it, it’s still there.

Quite frankly Pitt, I don’t know your stance on morality. [/quote]

I am a good person
[/quote]

I am licensed and bonded. Squeecky clean record :slight_smile:

146

^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when.

147

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :slight_smile:

148

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?

149

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

150

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

[/quote]

And what’s “bad?” What you say is bad?

151

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

[/quote]

And what’s “bad?” What you say is bad?[/quote]

IMO the definitions of good and bad are the largest two categories that encompass reality besides the grey areas :slight_smile:

152

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

[/quote]

And what’s “bad?” What you say is bad?[/quote]

IMO the definitions of good and bad are the largest two categories that encompass reality besides the grey areas :slight_smile:
[/quote]

And who defines the definitions of “good” and “bad?” You?

153

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

[/quote]

And what’s “bad?” What you say is bad?[/quote]

IMO the definitions of good and bad are the largest two categories that encompass reality besides the grey areas :slight_smile:
[/quote]

And who defines the definitions of “good” and “bad?” You?[/quote]

of course , I will not let you ?

154

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

[/quote]

And what’s “bad?” What you say is bad?[/quote]

IMO the definitions of good and bad are the largest two categories that encompass reality besides the grey areas :slight_smile:
[/quote]

And who defines the definitions of “good” and “bad?” You?[/quote]

of course , I will not let you ?[/quote]

I don’t personally define “good” and “bad.” I rely on precedent, intuition, the wisdom of ages and the Bible. And intuition goes a long way and has served me well.

155

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
^

Lol, if you’re anything like what you post, I don’t doubt it. I guess what I meant is that I don’t know where you think good and bad comes from and if you think there are some acts that are bad no matter who, what, or when. [/quote]

OK:) I do not think bad comes from any where . I think bad is the opposite of good :)[/quote]

And what’s “good?” What you say is good?[/quote]

the opposite of bad ?

[/quote]

And what’s “bad?” What you say is bad?[/quote]

IMO the definitions of good and bad are the largest two categories that encompass reality besides the grey areas :slight_smile:
[/quote]

And who defines the definitions of “good” and “bad?” You?[/quote]

of course , I will not let you ?[/quote]

I don’t personally define “good” and “bad.” I rely on precedent, intuition, the wisdom of ages and the Bible. And intuition goes a long way and has served me well.[/quote]

OK

156

Perhaps we could define good/bad as the two ends of a continuum of degrees of success at attaining a certain goal?

This highlights the subjectivity in that goodness and badness are judged in regards to particular situations and the correlation of activity/thought/etc. with a stated goal.

In the general sense people often mean, morally, that goal appears to be helping other people, or something like that, right? Or some kinda ‘greater good’ meme?

It’s not always clear as people seem to make exceptions like ‘it is not good to help people who are bad’. Overcomplicates it with successive feedback mechanisms.

157

[quote]tyciol wrote:
Perhaps we could define good/bad as the two ends of a continuum of degrees of success at attaining a certain goal?

This highlights the subjectivity in that goodness and badness are judged in regards to particular situations and the correlation of activity/thought/etc. with a stated goal.

In the general sense people often mean, morally, that goal appears to be helping other people, or something like that, right? Or some kinda ‘greater good’ meme?

It’s not always clear as people seem to make exceptions like ‘it is not good to help people who are bad’. Overcomplicates it with successive feedback mechanisms.[/quote]

you get it

158

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]hungry4more wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I usually stay out of these, but I have to side with Pat on this one. It is, in fact, spelled out for us in detail.

Still, one could ask; What is the basis for morality, the principles at the very core of it? After all, God doesn’t make up rules without reason.

Is it love vs. hate? Generosity vs. selfishness? Indifference vs. passion? All of the above?

If it weren’t for God telling us, would we be capable of determining morality for ourselves?[/quote]

the mere definition of the word Moral is debatable IMO
[/quote]
How so?

Just to make sure we’re on the same page, here; We are talking about the concept of right and wrong as it pertains to human behavior, right?

Or are you really debating the concept of ‘right’?

[/quote]

Are morals stories or the summation of a story or are they the concept of right and wrong?

I have my concept of right and wrong and I Govern my life accordingly. I should have no right to thrust my concepts on you nor should any one have that right to thrust their concepts of right and wrong on me (unless I am harming some one else)
[/quote]

And there the problem lies. I just described how your concept of it does not matter. If your concept of right includes something that is immoral, then it’s still immoral whether you think it’s right or not. You are not the master of morality, your own or anybody elses. It is what it is, and you cannot change it by a sheer act of will.[/quote]

Please prove that
[/quote]

I did on page 3 where I answered your last ‘prove it’ with:

“Simple, that which is evil is evil despite whether one thinks it is or not. For instance, is it ever moral to rape a child?
When an there is an act that causes grievous harm from a sentient being to or on another sentient being, that act is inherently evil. Even if society at large condones the evil action, the action is still evil. I choose to focus on the evil aspect because it’s easier to agree on examples.
What morality is, is inexpressible in language but actions demonstrate various aspects of morality.
Relative morality, which is what you are expressing breaks down in reality. Something being acceptable to one or more person does not define that act as moral. Like in the slavery example, it was always wrong and always immoral, but at certain points in history it was accepted. That didn’t do much for the slaves, they still suffered the evils of slavery. It’s wrong to enslave another, it’s wrong to denigrate and devalue a person. But they were and it was accepted. When people pointed out the truth, they were scoffed at, then they were opposed violently, then slavery being evil was accepted as always being self evident.
Because this fact was true outside the minds of people, it’s proof that this moral tenant and therefore morality exists independently of the human mind.”

Since we’re into proving things, prove morality is relative…
Prove that rape, murder, slavery, etc. could be considered ‘moral’ based on personal concepts of morality.
The problem with relative morality is that, at least in theory, you have to prove then, the most abominable acts could be considered moral. So you prove it. [/quote]

This is not proof of any thing this is mere opinion. I am not stating any thing about rape, murder, slavery, etc.

I will ask you a few questions When the state executes someone in that immoral ? We put people in Prison is that slavery ?

In my opinion there is going to be no proof of your opinion because it is simply an opinion that you and a minority share[/quote]

Why won’t you state anything about rape, murder, or slavery? Serious question. Do you feel they are too difficult or impossible to prove as wrong, or is it something else?

Also, by virtually any definition of slavery, prison does not fit that bill. Slavery is not a punishment, that would be servitude. Like in the case of an indentured servant, where one works off his debt. That is CLOSER to being in prison than slavery. [/quote]

No I feel Rape, Murder and slavery are wrong. I am not sure what you want
[/quote]
I think it’s just the fact that the human mind has a hard time dealing with the idea of something that has no origin.

My origin of morality is Christ and His teachings. That’s why love, compassion, forgiveness, and generosity are at the top of the scale.

What is the origin of your personal ideal of morality? What are the core concepts? How do you define it when it’s not so cut-and-dried?[/quote]

I am in total agreement , I love people and would only hurt some one to protect me or mine , I grew up Pentecostal .

My interpretation of the ideal human is kind, compassionate and antiknow it all. You will have to explain “CORE CONCEPTS”
[/quote]
All I meant are the basic ideas that define right and wrong for you, which you already stated as kind, compassionate, and anti-know-it-all.

But now, let’s take gay marriage as an example. Not to turn this into another thread on it, but it is a unique situation when it comes to the subject of morality.

Is there love, compassion, and generosity in a gay marriage? How about hate, selfishness, and indifference? The only difference, as far as I can tell, is the fact that they are the same sex. As such, my usual system of morality would tell me there is nothing evil about it.

Now, if we take the supposition that gay marriage is wrong and run it through the same mill, we come up with a paradox. The ones who say it’s wrong come up on the evil side of the scale, and the gay spouses come up on the good side.

159

I guess the more pertinent question, per Pitt, is where is the moral authority to stop others derived? That is, does God grant you the right to deny the recognition/acceptance of gay marriage? If not, are you not free to believe that they are living in sin but, as they are not strictly harming others, their freedom of association should be sacrosanct? Were gay marriage to be legalised, no one is forcing you/your family to change your moral stance or beliefs on the issue.

160

[quote]tyciol wrote:

It’s not always clear as people seem to make exceptions like ‘it is not good to help people who are bad’. Overcomplicates it with successive feedback mechanisms.[/quote]

I don’t see that caveat as much of an over-complication and I don’t think it detracts from the clarity of “help other.” In fact I’d say it adds a measure of clarity.

I do agree with you that good and bad are nebulous and to degrees subjective. But I wouldn’t say it’s all in the eye of the beholder.