Claiming Moral Authority

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]JayPierce wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Maybe not initially, but there are all kinds of love. Like, ‘love your enemy’, it’s a choice. You sure as hell do feel like loving them. But you choose to do it. That’s certainly not based on feeling when every fiber of your being wants to hate, you choose to love.[/quote]
Probably the one rule I have the most trouble with, personally. My love for Christ and the Father causes me to act in a loving, forgiving manner toward those I would consider to be my enemies, but I don’t feel any love for them, as far as affection goes.[/quote]

Exactly, which goes to the heart of the matter. You cannot help how you feel, you can only help what you do.

Let’s look at what Jesus says about it in Matthew:
“But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
(Matthew 5:44-45 ESV)”

Well, you cannot force yourself to have affection for your enemy. However, you can pray for them. That’s one thing you can do to follow what Jesus says.

It has happened to me. I had a bitter enemy at work. This lady did everything she could to get me fired. She spread vicious and untrue rumors about me, etc. I hated her badly. She was making my life a living hell at work.
Needless to say I had to defend myself, and it even went as far as HR. I technically won the battle in terms of our conflict. To this day I do not know why she singled me out to give hell, aside from the fact that I was the new guy. But that’s not the point of this story, the point is now she is my buddy. We totally rely on each other and help each other out all the time.

At the time, I had the opportunity to ‘do’ things to her to mess her up and hurt her job, if not get her to lose her job. My goal wasn’t to ‘stick it to her’, it was just to get the harassment to stop and to stop her from affecting my job. So despite the opportunities, I did not put her job in peril. I didn’t take advantage of the opportunities I had to do that. I also, while praying for ‘it’ to stop, I prayed for her as well.

The reason I behaved the way I did in this case, was directly because of that gospel. It’s not that I was naturally a good guy who have done that anyway. I decided to follow what Jesus said and it worked. Like I said, now she is my ‘work friend’ and we help each other all the time.
I chose to act this way but I didn’t feel any love towards her, at all. After all she was screwing with my lively hood and that’s not something I take lightly. It’s just that I didn’t feel any love toward her, I chose do what the gospel said, that’s all.

That’s why while love can have very strong emotions attached to it, there is more to it than just emotion.

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I completely get it, pat. I have run into similar situations, and it is tough to reject those opportunities.

Again, though; couldn’t it be argued that it was your love of Christ that made you act that way toward her? That your love for Him is the basis for your obedience to Him, and that without that love you probably would have acted very differently?

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:<<< I know exactly what you mean, but is it your love for the person causing you to act, or your love for God?[/quote]They are a package. Nobody who says they love God who doesn’t love everyone else has any idea of what loving God means. On the other side, it is not possible to love in the truly virtuous sense without it being motivated by a love for God. Of course unbelievers “love”, and sometimes apparently sacrificially, but not being out of a desire to please God, that love is still born of self and is motivated by self.

I truly love people who hate me. I do. Certainly not because I’m a great guy. (If you only knew) I love Jesus with everything I am for saving me from the man I once was. A man worthy a one thousand eternities in hell. An ENEMY and hater of God. A worshiper of self and lover of all the sin that I now hate. While I was still this enemy of His He saved me. He loved me when I was utterly unlovable. How can I give those who hate me less than He gave me and claim to have tasted of His love? I love them. Yes, I have genuine affection for them. The worse they are to me the more He reminds me of how I was to Him. My motivation is to please Him by loving them with His love for me.

People who can’t love those who hate them have yet to understand their own sin and what it means to have been saved from it.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I new you’d say something like that. And it follows straight from your foundation of faith. Which brings me to this

I remember when I used to be a Christian. I struggled so hard to try to do it. I learned that harboring hatred and resentment for others no matter how much they wronged you is like taking a poison and expecting the other person to die. Even after I lost my faith, I still believe it. But I struggled with it then and still struggle with it now. Also with knowing the difference between justice and vengeance.

Have you had practical success wrestling with these types of things? If so, how’d you do it?

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[quote]JayPierce wrote:
I completely get it, pat. I have run into similar situations, and it is tough to reject those opportunities.

Again, though; couldn’t it be argued that it was your love of Christ that made you act that way toward her? That your love for Him is the basis for your obedience to Him, and that without that love you probably would have acted very differently?[/quote]

Absolutely. Not only argued, but that’s why. God makes me want to be a better person everyday. I fail more than I succeed, but I am happy to have a success story.

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[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

I remember when I used to be a Christian. I struggled so hard to try to do it. I learned that harboring hatred and resentment for others no matter how much they wronged you is like taking a poison and expecting the other person to die. Even after I lost my faith, I still believe it. But I struggled with it then and still struggle with it now. Also with knowing the difference between justice and vengeance.

[/quote]

Well, I know that you did not address this to me, but I would like to butt in and if it’s unwelcome just skip.
I have long argued that the Biblical/ Christian tenets are more than just for Christians, it’s just plain practical advice. Even if you look at Mosaic Law, there is a lot of just plain practical advises there. Of course understanding what the Penatuch was and who it was for and the time for which is what written is helpful.

  • Circumcision - Keeps your pee pee from getting infected, particularly helpful if you are a nomad. Why on the 8th day? Clotting factors are highest.
  • Clean foods, apparently the early Hebrews would eat anything and a lot of it could make you ill, like buzzards and vultures.
  • Keeping sick people outside of camp - stops the spread of disease and keeps epidemics from happening.

There’s a lot of practical advice in the bible. Harboring hate can destroy you, so it’s better to let it go. That doesn’t mean though that you aren’t going to go through it and it doesn’t mean you have to hang around bad or poisoness people just got to let go of the hate and not act on it. That’s how you get never ending feuds going that can destroy families.

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[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I remember when I used to be a Christian. >>>[/quote]Now you gotta know what I’m gonna say to this too Fletch. [quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I struggled so hard to try to do it. I learned that harboring hatred and resentment for others no matter how much they wronged you is like taking a poison and expecting the other person to die. Even after I lost my faith, I still believe it. But I struggled with it then and still struggle with it now. Also with knowing the difference between justice and vengeance.

Have you had practical success wrestling with these types of things? If so, how’d you do it?[/quote] Here is a part of an email I sent in a lengthy exchange with a T-Nation member who will remain nameless. This was in January. As I say. Half my T-Nation life, nobody sees. He had the same questions you do Fletch.

[quote]I know of a young Christian woman in California, 21 years old, pregnant with her first child whose husband was killed in a car jacking by a gang member. There she is left with a baby and the wonderful life she had hoped to build with this by all accounts very loving Christian man destroyed. She takes 10 grand of the insurance money and puts it on the murderer’s commissary in prison so he’ll have some comfort there for the rest of his life. She visits him and tells him that while what he did was a grave sin against God, she is guilty of crimes against that same God that would send her to the same hell he is going to if it weren’t for Jesus nailing her sins to that cross and taking away her guilt. He is abusive and scornful, but she keeps going to visit him while her and her church are praying for him. After several years of this he does break down and repent, asking the Lord to save him. She tells him that it was worth the loss of her husband and his going to be with God sooner than she planned if it would be used by the Lord to save his murderer.

My pastor told us about a funeral once where the murderer of the man’s son whose funeral it was showed up. He had been paroled. The brothers and sisters and mother hated him for killing their sibling and son and thought it reprehensible that he dared show his face at the man’s funeral. One of the sons had to be physically restrained from attacking him. He begged to be heard and pulled out a bag filled with letters from the father forgiving him and telling him that he loved him and that he prayed for him that he would turn from his sin and embrace the Lord Jesus as his righteousness before God so he could be forgiven and be with him in heaven. He also said in the letters that his family wouldn’t probably be able to let go until after he was gone and they had seen the change in this man. The murderer begged their forgiveness and told them what a great man of God their husband and father was for putting aside his feelings so that the killer of his son could hear the gospel and be saved. They actually are friends now. He goes to their church and they have him over for family functions and such. (took a little while though)

Corrie Ten Boom, who wrote “The Hiding Place” later found herself in a church with the very Nazi prison guard who had tortured and gassed her family. (God really does know how to do it, doesn’t he?) He had forsaken his past, truly repented and surrendered to Jesus all of his sin. Knowing her own sin and what she had been forgiven, she forgave him and embraced him as a brother in Christ.[/quote]
It’s all about Jesus Fletch. And KNOWING what you are, who and what God is and what He’s done to bring those two together. To be a Christian is not to adopt the high moral philosophy of Christ. It is to be supernaturally born again in His very resurrected image. He is alive. In me. In me and every other true member of His body and bride, the church. How hard do you think it is for the people in the stories above to forgive those that wrong them? How dare they deny to others what has been freely bestowed upon themselves.

I AM the prodigal son. Who was still His father’s son even in the far country. I gained a rather impressive body of Christian knowledge, including the bible itself as a young convert who thought I was ready to take the universe for Jesus. The sin of “haughty eyes” which I’m convinced is the one God hates most of all, brought to me His most wise and stern discipline. I spent over a decade sinning right in His face when I knew better and had no excuse. He taught me what I was simply by letting me be me. I almost killed myself and almost destroyed my family, HIS family, with alcohol and self centered rebellion. One time I sat looking at that clear liquid in that bottle and I knew it owned me. I was a slave. In bondage and I knew it. As I sat there demoralized, defeated and ashamed, thinking of how “good” I once thought I was, The loving presence of the Spirit of God came over me so strong. Not condemning, but not pleased either. He was reminding me that He was still there. I couldn’t stand it. I blubbered and screamed “Leave me alone. What do you want with me? Don’t you see? I AM NO GOOD!!!” He said to me: “I know. Your robe and your ring will be waiting for you my son. I have things for you to do, but you’re still not ready yet”. It’s tough to describe these types of things, but I “heard” Him. Down in my heart.

He was faithful when I was not. One Saturday morning a few years later, March will be seven years now, I came to, just saturated, tasting and breathing alcohol. I sat up slowly on the couch, eyes burning outta my head and I “heard” Him again. “You will never drink alcohol again. Today I have set you free and it’s time for you to begin your next chapter”. I have not had a meaningful temptation to drink since. So help me. He IS my Father from the story of the prodigal son. I squandered all His gifts to me on sin and self AFTER I was His son. He didn’t just take me back, He has allowed me closer than I ever dreamed somebody could be to Him. When I go to prayer? He’s there first. He wants to spend time with ME. Ohhhh bless His glorious name. LOL!! What could somebody do to me that compares to what I did to Him? It isn’t always exactly instant, but it doesn’t take me long to remember any more. Forgiving and loving those who hurt me is a privilege and a joy. It’s taken my entire adult life to get here by His grace. He is a perfectly wise, flawlessly faithful and eternally loving heavenly Father. There is nothing I am or nothing I have that I would deny Him.

All this philosophical Stuff? For me that flows from everything I’ve just said. I KNOW where my tautologies belong.

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To Tirib:
Thanks for the in depth response Tirib. I don’t know what I can do with it, but thanks for your time anyway. I just don’t think I could believe in Christianity again if I tried. I truly did believe in it at one time or at least I genuinely thought I did. The trinity, that Jesus died for our sins and that he is The way. I just can’t believe in it anymore.

To Pat:
I don’t mind you chipping in at all. While I certainly agree with you, I was more wondering how to deal with it in a practical sense. It’s very easy to say something is wrong, but quite another to live one’s life accordingly.

I’m just trying to look into the personal practical manifestations from the different foundations of morality. Also, the tools people use to abide by their moral foundation and belief.

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[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:<<< I just don’t think I could believe in Christianity again if I tried. I truly did believe in it at one time or at least I genuinely thought I did. The trinity, that Jesus died for our sins and that he is The way. I just can’t believe in it anymore. >>>[/quote]Well Fletch, I didn’t exactly write that piece thinking you would fall on your face in repentance. Though Nothing would please me more. I do so very much hope that the passage in Hebrews 6:4-8 is not you. Hebrews 6 ESV I don’t know, but I’m still your friend either way. You’ve always been kind to me which makes me like you even more.

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[quote] I’m serving the triune God for whom “is”, DOES mean the same thing for the one AND the many.
I don’t see myself in the same ontological bind that you are because I don’t include finite created being in the the same “many” as the eternal uncreated many in the ontology of God. I don’t require (though you’ll say I do) the same type of continuity from lowest being to highest that you do. The biblical ontology declares two distinct species of being. Infinite, uncreated and non contingent in the case of God and finite, created and utterly dependent upon God for everything else. Man bearing the image of God is uniquely related to this creator in that he is a morally accountable agent of godlike (small g) high intellectual capacity. By design.
[/quote]

Actually, i don’t think you require the same type of continuity from lowest being to highest than me.

Your system can maintain both principles (univocity of being and ontological separation and hierarchy) without internal contradiction.

Your conception of Triunity put many-ness at the highest possible level of ontology. In God.
That guarantee the principle of univocity of being.

Your conception of finitude and your definition of sin as spiritual death guarantee the principle of ontological hierarchy.
And there is no contradiction between both principles because because strictly speaking the created, finite “many” really IS if and only if it IS in God.

I acknowledge that.
Your calvinism is probably the only kind of theology that allow this. (With the possible exception of some radical brand of gnosticism that essentially states that this imperfect, finite and plural world doesn’t really exist).

[quote]
The eternal uncreated triunity and hence the eternal uncreated one and many-ness of God’s being is reflected in all the finite contingent being that He has made. His signature and fingerprint if you will. Right down to the Higgs boson. If it exists which is ultimately irrelevant to my system. In the biblical view there is no scale of being with super micro particulate matter (maybe ) at the bottom and God at the top.[/quote]

For the record, there is no “scale of being” in my “pantheistic” system
There is one being that express itself in an infinite multitude of facts.
None of these facts are separate beings, and there is no real ontological hierarchy between them.
The “scale of being” is an optical illusion produced by our finite perspective and our analytical minds.

[quote]
There are two distinct ontologies with one brought into existence, maintained by AND historically contingent upon the other. I can hear you thinking. You are going to hit me with infinitude as indeed requiring the above mentioned comprehensive exception-less scale of being after all. For if “being” does not include “all” than it is not infinite. Is it?[/quote]

Not really.
A being can be infinite without being all-encompassing.
The cost of such an idea is usually the loss of the principle of univocity of being.
But, as i said above and strictly speaking, that’s not your case.

Again : i do not see ANY internal contradiction in your epistemology and your ontology.

Our differences ultimately lies in methodology and ethics.

I can’t accept revelation as a valid philosophical method. (to use your terminology, I see revelation as a “trick” of the autonomous mind)
And i can’t accept a conception of morality that only acknowledge the intrinsic value of living beings indirectly.

You see my whole system as a convoluted attempt to avoid your conception of sin.
I see your whole system as a convoluted attempt to maintain transcendance and ontology hierarchy despite your fundamental intuition of monism.

[quote]
Everyone (except God) is eventually reduced to circles, that is, contradiction. The difference lies in where they are in the system not who has them and who doesn’t. Faith is the only resolution and it’s only a matter of what in. Which is what I just said about circular logic and contradiction viewed a posteriori. Or is it? Because at the most foundational and defining level of our ability think at all, faith is both the necessary axiom AND the inescapable consequence.[/quote]

yes.

[quote]
Saying that ontological dissimilarity in the one and the many renders the problem unsolvable is simply to state that you don’t like that particular tautology.[/quote]

But no.
Equivocity of being. A la Aristotle. has huge epistemological consequences, whether i like it or not.
And this one is NOT a tautology. It’s a paradox at best, and an inconsistency at worst.

I reject it for the same reason you reject Aristotle. It doesn’t do the trick epistemologically.

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[quote]No sir. We touched on this briefly several months ago when you asked me about my adherence to creation “ex nihilo”. That is, out of nothing. As is the case with most thinking men, you habitually reason in terms of your own already adopted system. In your case pantheism. When you hear me speak of God in the beginning creating space, time, the heavens and the earth, you naturally see that as God extending HIMSELF to then include the reality that we now find ourselves in.

This is not my view nor is it the bible’s view. In the biblical system there was once a “time” (for lack of a better human way of putting it for the moment), when the infinite and eternal and to us meaninglessly pure being, essence and mind that IS almighty God was the only ontological reality in existence.

The sum of biblical truth taken as a whole proclaims that every single entity not then in existence was brought into true ontological reality from absolutely nothing by the the fiat command of this God. This includes matter, light, time and space. All by divine mechanisms understood only by Himself. Even the concept of “nothing” in the context of this discussion is incomprehensible to us.

This God’s being, power and knowledge are infinitely beyond the intellectual equipment of man. The combined prowess of every man from Adam until the last trumpet of the Lord proceed not one micron toward His. This God commanded nothing and nothing obeyed Him to give forth everything. Even before the organization of matter into it’s present forms and before the existence of man and therefore sin as well, the ontological distinction of creator and creature was utterly basic and hence taken as axiomatic by Christians throughout the ages. Some more consistently so than others.
[/quote]

I understand this ontological distinction of creator and creature but i thought that,before the original sin, there was some kind of continuity (for the lack of a better word) between the creator and the creature, and more importantly between the creatures themselves.
A living “link” latter severed by the Fall.

I wasn’t thinking about a distinct essence of the creature, but about a previously unknown kind of existence.
If i understand it correctly, Original Sin introduces death.

Also, the ontological separation i was thinking about was not so much a separation between God and Mankind but between Mankind and Nature.

I don’t believe in “private practice”.
Practices are never that private, in last analysis.
They change you, they define you, and for this reason they indirectly and inevitably affect many other people.

I don’t believe in amoral grey areas either.
Very few things have “no moral consequences”. Your diet is not amoral. The music you listen to is not amoral. Etc.

That being said, I’m often against some specific enforcement of morality by civil law.
But that’s not because i think it should not be enforced at all. But because i think it should not be enforced like that.

I don’t doubt morality. But i sometimes doubt the legitimity and/or the efficiency of our modern political systems.

I would hold vastly different positions in a tribal or traditionnal context for example.

To say it brutally, i won’t trust Evil to enforce morality.

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Great stuff as usual Kamui. As you no doubt guessed, it may take me a while to put together a proper response.

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I have been swamped Kamui my man. You know I’ll get to ya though.

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I feel bad, but I have not been able to give you the attention you warrant Kamui and rather than disrespect you with a rushed response it’s still gonna be a while.

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I just wanted to reiterate once again :I feel bad, but I have not been able to give you the attention you warrant Kamui and rather than disrespect you with a rushed response it’s still gonna be a while.

I haven’t forgotten, but your posts require concentrated focus. I can’t do it in sections over time usually which means I need a solid couple hours to commit. You know I wouldn’t forget about ya. It’s been required that I take up some battles on another site and maybe two as well. (Long story)

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I started working on a response tonight Kamui.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Listen man. Have you thought at all about what the word would be like if the preponderance of it’s citizens even attempted to operate their lives in the manner you have here suggested? I will say again. If there is no supra human court beyond which there is no appeal then all of life is meaningless. When we understood this as a nation we soared. Now that we don’t we’re dying a grotesque death. The fact that we don’t see this is a direct result of it being the case.[/quote]